My Mom keeps saying all of these terrible things about the Catholic Church

[BlueEyedLady]

Folks: Someone posted indicating that “there are not other institutions” that seem to have the same problem of sexual abuse against children as the Catholic Church and that is why the media goes after her. Wrong!

There are plenty of institutions where sexual assault and pedophilia have been long term problems and still are. These include all nursing homes, facilities that care for the disabled (98% of the disabled are sexually assaulted the first year they enter a group home or care facility.), the girl scouts, boy scouts, public and private schools. All Churches are guilty of this, every last one of them. It is everywhere.

I think the media focuses on the Catholic Church because of her size and it helps create that sensationalism the media likes so much. She did hide it, and now she is not as able to do so. Others places are just as guilty.

If you know of this kind of activity report it. Don’t look the other way. And remember, I’ll preach this until I die; no less than 33% of ALL families have incest going on behind their doors. That is the reported cases. We can’t afford to be so naive about this problem if we want it to stop.

Offenders of this sort need locked up for the rest of their lives.

I’m going to need to see some sources for this. I don’t for a minute believe that 98% of people are sexually abused their first year in care. I also don’t believe that 1 in 3 families is guilty of sexual abuse.

And although you seem to make a lot of assumptions here, I’m going to also need to see sources that the boy scouts and girl scouts are systematically abusing children, that it is known at the national level, and that troop leaders are being paid to quit to avoid legal trouble. Same with all of the other churches that you say are abusing children.

You can make assumptions and general statements about other groups all you want, but there just isn’t the evidence to support it that there is with the catholic church.

 

[sousley]

I’m going to need to see some sources for this. I don’t for a minute believe that 98% of people are sexually abused their first year in care. I also don’t believe that 1 in 3 families is guilty of sexual abuse.

And although you seem to make a lot of assumptions here, I’m going to also need to see sources that the boy scouts and girl scouts are systematically abusing children, that it is known at the national level, and that troop leaders are being paid to quit to avoid legal trouble. Same with all of the other churches that you say are abusing children.

You can make assumptions and general statements about other groups all you want, but there just isn’t the evidence to support it that there is with the catholic church.

I agree with you that it is difficult to ascertain real statistical numbers for groupings of people, but even if we could, I not convinced it would change our general outlook. I think that whether school teachers, family members or scouting groups, if these kinds of offenses take place they are viewed more properly against the individual that committed it.

An uncle in Connecticut and and one in Kansas that abuse their niece don’t represent an “uncle abuser” club. They are seen as separate. Even if one is a school teacher, he doesn’t also end up on the “school teacher abuse” list. Theoretically, the same single abuse could manifest itself on many statistical lists or on none at all.

A sampling of 32 “uncle abuse” are still seen as singular events. It doesn’t tend to cast a dim viewpoint of uncles in general, because they are seen as individuals. The same can be said of ministers, coaches, and volunteers. Catholic priests are not necessarily seen as individuals but as parts of a whole. I suppose it is both a blessing and a curse, in that sense. I don’t think anyone actually believes the Church teaches pedophilia, that would be sort of ridiculous. But the stigma of even one incident seems to more readily cast a scandalous perspective on the whole Church. Would you agree?

 

[Rau]

… But the stigma of even one incident seems to more readily cast a scandalous perspective on the whole Church. Would you agree?

The acts to conceal the abuses, to transfer priests, not report priests to the police - I think these do more to cast a scandalous perspective on the Church.

 

[thequietsinger]

thequietsinger said:

“My Mom told me that the people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the clergy, meaning what some have done to others in the Church over the years”

And innocent clergy shouldn’t have to suffer for the sins of the guilty, but they do.

Likewise, if your mom did something terrible, you would suffer. Or if you did something terrible, your mom would suffer. Without moving to a desert island and giving up all electronic connection to the mainland, there’s no way of keeping ourselves from suffering for other people’s wrongdoings, or keeping other people from having to suffer from our wrongdoing.

I’d also add that since the Church is BIG, any problem that the Church has is going to be a BIG problem.

That is exactly right. Not every Priest, Bishop, etc. did such cruel acts, yet the ones who never gave it a thought are paying for it, and probably always will until the end of time, which deeply saddens me. I completely agree with your last point.

 

[thequietsinger]

First, I wanted to congratulate you on hanging in there thus far inspite of all the difficulties, trials, and obstacles! :yup::clapping::bounce:
That’s very hard.

There are a lot of issues there, and it’s hard to get to all of them, but I’ll at least try to hit some of them.

Just so you can understand why we believe in the pope, I think one needs to go back to scripture. There are numerous references in the Bible to Peter and his important role in the Church. For instance, Christ spoke to Peter, asked him, and him alone, 3 TIMES to shepherd the Church. Christ gave him the “keys to the kingdom”. Christ said all authority on heaven and earth had been given to him. In turn he turned to Peter, said, “What you hold bound on earth will be bound in heaven. What you loose in earth will be loosed in heaven”.

Christ changed Simon’s name to Peter, which means “Rock”, saying, “On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”!

Now, we believe that the apostles held what we would now call “offices”. Recall that when Judas committed suicide, he was replaced with Matthew. When Peter was martyred, likewise, he was replaced. Ever since, we have had the descendants of Peter who were there by DIVINE authority.

When people rejected the prophets, who spoke in Christ’s name, they rejected Christ. The same thing happens when we reject the pope, a priest, or a representative of the Church. That’s serious.

Now, was Peter perfect? No. He denied Christ 3 times! He also was once corrected by St. Paul for not treating people equally, and Peter accepted correction, with humility.

So yes, Peter was sinful, but that never stopped Christ from choosing him to lead the Church in Christ’s absence nor any of the apostles. Christ also chose **JUDAS **as his disciple, but we can’t throw the entire Church, and Peter, out because of one Judas!

There will always be a Judas. There was one from the very beginning of the Church, and there is now, and I suspect there will be in the future. However, it still doesn’t change the fact that Christ gave Peter special authority to establish whatever rules, laws necessary to make the institution of a Church in a global world.

Now, the disciples were, likewise, sinful. St. Francis of Assisi was told, when he established his order that there would be some who would come from it who would cause great scandal for the Church. St. Francis hesitated and asked God if more good would come out of the order or bad and was told, even so, it’d be more good than bad. So, St. Francis went ahead, knowing there would be people in his own order which would give it a bad name.

Now, since the Church is made of up people, likewise, we are not perfect. Neither is her church perfect. If you/she researched it, I am pretty sure you could find some of its leaders, and parishioners, somewhere in history who had made major mistakes, too.

Personally, I try not to judge the Church by a few individuals, or even countries, who don’t practice its beliefs. I look at the Church and accept its beliefs, because I think the beliefs are true, not because so and so practices, or doesn’t, practice the faith.

A lot of people like to bring up the priest scandal when they really want to get ugly when attacking the Church. However, when they attack the Church, they are also attacking Christ!

The Catholic Church is the original Church. The others have split off later, often because they wanted their own man-made leaders for various reasons. Henry the VIII couldn’t get an annulment, ran out and headed his own church.

I think other churches have their leaders, just don’t use the word “pope” is all.

As to the Church’s spending money on trials or such, I really don’t know if it did or didn’t. Either way, it wouldn’t change my opinion on it being the one true Church that Christ intended on establishing.

I see you’re only 16 y.o., so you will have a LONG road ahead of you. That’s a special kind of cross to bear, but God said he’d never give us more than we can carry. You’re probably thinking now that you wished he didn’t think you were so capable!

Now, I’ll include a cheat sheet on apologetics (the study of defending the faith). ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM

These are some of the most common issues addressed. There are other cheat sheets, even books on apologetics. You can go online.

Good luck, and God bless you!

I’ll close with a prayer. Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I would like to thank you for all of the things you pointed out, and the link you gave me. And, about the Pope thing, yes, it is true. Sure, we don’t have an actual “Pope,” but we do have the “higher-ups” as my Mom calls them (I believe in America they’re called Metropalins, but I don’t quite remember). She feels that the Pope stands in the way of God, and that one man shouldn’t be worshiped, which we know that this is not true. I agree with you. Not one person, group of people, scandal, or whatever will ever change my feelings about the Catholic Church. My age surprises a lot of people, especially my RC Priest. He was so surprised (and very happy/excited) about me wanting (now going) to become Catholic. Yes, a long road indeed! No, this year has been a very rough year, but without the Catholic Church/faith in my life, I wouldn’t be the person I am today. Thank you for your prayers. I appreciate it very much!

 

[thequietsinger]

I’m sorry that you went through a conversation like that. They represent accusations we all face, but it is worse coming from someone you love than an acquaintance. I would say to try to identify the intent: is the attack meant to prove some type of falsity or was it the result of hurt feelings over scandal. From what you’ve described, it sounds to me a little more like the latter.

If so, she is not alone, and probably shouldn’t be quickly dismissed. Blessed John Paul II said, “There is no such thing as private sin”. Unfortunately, there have been men we feel we should be able to trust that have done sinful things. And when sin like this happens, it saddens us all. Good priests become “stained with the black brush.” They don’t deserve it, but it happens. Lay Catholics somehow felt as though they are associated in some way to this scandal. We are connected, we are Catholic. We feel this connection more profoundly that a Baptist minister guilty of the same offense. The whole Baptist faith does not assume the stigma of the offense. The minister is given a name and that name only belongs proper to the congregation over which he presides. The priest is not given a name; he is “a Catholic priest” and his congregation is world-wide. Sin hurts us all, and truth unites us all. We may feel sometimes that this is unfair, but in truth it is how it should be.

In recent years, Catholic clergy has represented the lowest percentage of abuse cases of any other group. However, the world calls on the Catholic Church more vehemently for restitution for these offenses and greater levels of continual accountability than any other group. Why isn’t the public school system held accountable for these same sins? Is this fair? Yes. Even though many won’t admit it, the world still holds us to greater accountability – because it is as it should be. More is demanded of us, because we are the true Church.

I am proud to be Catholic. I love the Church with her successes and her frailties, not in spite of them. I hope she loves me with all of mine. Hilaire Belloc calls the Church: “An institution run with such knavish imbecility that if it were not the work of God, it would not last a fortnight.” So take comfort and don’t be discouraged, this too shall pass.

It isn’t the first time it’s happened, but this time really hurt and bothered me for some reason. I believe it’s the latter, as well. For all of those who have asked and wondered about why my Mom left the Church, here is what she has told me in the recent months:

“I enjoy going to Church. When I met your (my) Dad, and we went to Church, he refused to put anything in the offertory basket, because of the things the Church hid from the public, and I agree with him. The people shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the Priests. When we discovered the Greek Orthodox Church, we found that it was right for us, and went with it. Father (X) was nice to us, and always took care of us. And, there’s no person in front of God.”

Now, realize my Dad came from a Methodist background, and neither my Mom or Dad are actively practicing any faith that I know of. I can’t really blame them about not going to Church, as that part is complicated with us trying to move and the last parish we went to, the parish in general lied to us about serious matters (does anyone else see a red flag here??? ) and then tried to cover it up. Oh yeah, and then the GO Priest she’s talking about, when I asked him how wine and bread could possibly be Jesus (I was about 10 at the time, and had no clue what it was/meant then), he yelled at me saying that’s how it is, and didn’t put it in simple terms I could understand. My Mom and Dad were sitting right across from me, maybe two feet, and didn’t say a word about it. That really bothered me, because I just wanted to know, and I wasn’t old enough then to know what to research in order to figure it out, so I let it go until I decided to convert to Catholicism and compared the two faiths, and now I have an actual understanding of how it’s done, both in the GO and Catholic Church.

 

[Cricket2]

It always astounds me to hear how many victims of clergy abuse did not go to the police, yet sought to deal direct with church authorities.

What is the scope of a “family” in the statistic you quote? Is it just parents+ kids, or wider? As you go wider, 33% probably represents fewer incest instances.

Do you have a reference / link to this statistic?

I learned this while caring for the disabled. We often had staff meetings to discuss issues of abuse as part of our training. It is always pointed out that the numbers are probably low. I also learned it as part of a safety awareness program while in college and when I worked for a college. The “family” is considered to consist of all family types, single parents, married, divorced and extended. What is believed is that the numbers get worse as you extend the family. The actual numbers are probably closer to 50%, when you start looking at the activities within these families.

Children keep this a secret for a long time, are often disbelieved when they do finally tell someone. Boys report less than girls. It is a perverse, imbedded problem. Over the years I have had the chance to meet girls from my school years as a child. I know of no less than a dozen to whom this was going on with, along with their siblings and cousins or even childhood friends when they visited the house. In my own childhood neighborhood, while I was growing up we we warned about a minimum of 6 men believed to be assaulting their children and their friends. But in that day and age most people thought they “should just mind their business and it was not talked about.”

 

[RPRPsych]

I’m not sure this is a fair characterisation of the issue. There is a major enquiry into institutional child abuse in Australia and I believe the number of cases attributable to catholic clergy exceeds all other institutions combined.

That’s hard to square with the well-known fact that most child abuse is at the hands of relatives or people close to the family. The media isn’t hunting them the way it hounds the Church.

Other institutions “in the dock” include the Anglican Church, Boy Scouts, Government child services, mental institutions etc.

…while ISKCON, $cientology and fundamentalist Islam are given a free pass.

While its true that the Church is going through a horrible process now, and some accusations may be unjust, by and large we are “guilty as charged” of both the abuse and the mishandling and cover-up. This is a cleansing process, and it has to happen.

I fully agree with this point. What bothers me is that others, who are equally guilty of both abuse and cover-ups, get off scot-free, leading the lay reader to believe that all the Church does is molest altar boys.

 

[Rau]

That’s hard to square with the well-known fact that most child abuse is at the hands of relatives or people close to the family. The media isn’t hunting them the way it hounds the Church. What bothers me is that others, who are equally guilty of both abuse and cover-ups, get off scot-free, leading the lay reader to believe that all the Church does is molest altar boys.

The Australian enquiry is examining institutional child sexual abuse not family abuse. Multiple institutions are in the dock as I said. The Catholic Church gets attention in proportion to the scale of its transgressions (number of perpetrators and victims) and sadly it is well out in front , even when you allow for our greater size. Understandably, the enquiry needs to focus where the problem has been / is greatest.

 

[epan]

While I try to keep an open mind, I must admit that I am highly skeptical of the Church hierarchy. My perception is that the sex scandal went on for decades, and had to have been well known of at the highest levels in the Church. Further, I believe that it was covered up, and even facilitated, at the highest levels.

Hopefully, Francis will restore some credibility. My perception is that his predecessor was not held in high regard by many.

I can understand why a Catholic, who trusted the Church, would feel very angry. That may be a part of your mother’s reactions. She may feel betrayed.

 

[RPRPsych]

The Australian enquiry is examining institutional child sexual abuse not family abuse. Multiple institutions are in the dock as I said. The Catholic Church gets attention in proportion to the scale of its transgressions (number of perpetrators and victims) and sadly it is well out in front , even when you allow for our greater size. Understandably, the enquiry needs to focus where the problem has been / is greatest.

Point taken.

 

[Trebor135]

I don’t understand the objection. They’re both in the same (Eastern Orthodox) communion. As the Maronites and Melkites are, but within the Catholic Church.

and the priest is correct to a certain extent but it’s a reductionist view of that era. Many Orthodox laity and clergy also suffered greatly for the faith via persecutions that are virtually beyond imagination.

Neither my priest nor I were intending to discount the actual killing, imprisonment, and overall oppression of Orthodox in the Soviet Union. God forbid. What I was driving at was that TheQuietSinger’s mom shouldn’t have left the Catholic Church because of the child sexual abuse scandal, just as she shouldn’t leave the Eastern Orthodox Church over the collaboration of some Soviet-era clergy with their communist overlords. The behaviour of some individuals within a group doesn’t automatically show anything in particular about that group, only about those individuals.

 

[Miriam1947]

Many of the original abuse scandals were decades old. Years ago it was thought that sexual abusers of the young could be cured. Priests were sent to psychologists who often pronounced them cured. We know now that is not the case.

In the CC many abusers were in fact engaging in pederasty, which is sexual activity involving men and boys who were in age close to or in adolescence. These were homosexual priests. That point is often not covered in the media. This was not pedophilia which is towards younger children of either sex.

Anthropologists propose three subdivisions of homosexuality as age-structured, egalitarian and gender-structured. Pederasty is the archetypal example of male age-structured homosexuality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty#Expressions

As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia (USA spelling) or paedophilia (British spelling) is a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

 

[Rau]

Many of the original abuse scandals were decades old. Years ago it was thought that sexual abusers of the young could be cured. Priests were sent to psychologists who often pronounced them cured. We know now that is not the case.

In the CC many abusers were in fact engaging in pederasty, which is sexual activity involving men and boys who were in age close to adolescence. These were homosexual priests. That point is often not covered in the media. This was not pedophilia which is towards younger children of either sex.

Anthropologists propose three subdivisions of homosexuality as age-structured, egalitarian and gender-structured. Pederasty is the archetypal example of male age-structured homosexuality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty#Expressions

As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia (USA spelling) or paedophilia (British spelling) is a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Regrettably, the actions of church authorities in mishandling cases, not reporting offenders to the police and seeking to cover up acts by various means including priest transfers, cannot be explained by a medical diagnosis. It is this institutional failing to protect the innocent, and to deal with the perpetrators, that is the focus of enquiries around the world.

 

[Miriam1947]

Regrettably, the actions of church authorities in mishandling cases, not reporting offenders to the police and seeking to cover up acts by various means including priest transfers, cannot be explained by a medical diagnosis. It is this institutional failing to protect the innocent, and to deal with the perpetrators, that is the focus of enquiries around the world.

In the forties and fifties no one reported abuse and if they did children weren’t believed. That is the way it was back then and having grown up then I know from sad experience.

Thankfully it is different now. Yes there were cover-ups but today your child is safer in any Catholic Church or CC program than almost any where else.

 

[Rau]

In the forties and fifties no one reported abuse and if they did children weren’t believed. That is the way it was back then and having grown up then I know from sad experience.

Thankfully it is different now. Yes there were cover-ups but today your child is safer in any Catholic Church or CC program than almost any where else.

It didn’t stop in the fifties, and in many cases, the guilt of the perpetrator was not in doubt. Yes, it is better today. But justice for the wronged demands certain actions now. And governments have a duty to ensure institutions have changed for the better.

 

[mikecash]

As others have said, I think we have to remember that covering up sex crimes was a deep cultural problem for society in general. For example, up until the 1970s in many American jurisdictions you needed a witness to prove the crime of rape because it was feared that women would falsely accuse men. Thus, most prosecutions were impossible. Furthermore, until rape shield laws were passed, it was common practice to use a woman’s past sexual history in the court room to show that she was unchaste and must have consented to a rape. I was raised in the Boy Scouts and was completely shocked when I learned that separate showering facilities for men and children were not standard practice until the 1980s. Look at how Michael Jackson was able to buy silence in 1993. After the settlement, the victim wouldn’t testify and the case was dropped. Look at how the coaches at Penn State behaved.

We had a cultural problem that did not recognize the reality of sexual crime. When there was a sex crime, the response was to pretend it didn’t happen, to not talk about it, to keep it quiet as not to shame the victim. This wasn’t just a Catholic problem, it was a universal cultural problem. Thanks be to God we talk about these issues now. Still, too many sexual crimes go unreported out of fear. All that to say, I do not mean to minimize what happened in the Church. It was disgraceful and led many souls away from the true Faith.

 

[Rau]

…
We had a cultural problem that did not recognize the reality of sexual crime. When there was a sex crime, the response was to pretend it didn’t happen, to not talk about it, to keep it quiet as not to shame the victim.

Fortunately the Church, when owning up to and seeking to explain its own failings, is not so deluded as to believe this.

 

[mikecash]

Fortunately the Church, when owning up to and seeking to explain its own failings, is not so deluded as to believe this.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. My point was not that the cover ups were to protect the victims. My point was that making a public case carried a huge burden of guilt and shame for the victim and the family that is less present today. This stigma helped make hiding abuse easier. The attitude was you get over it by not talking about it and pretending it didn’t happen. The attitude of the culture at larger, which was the main point of my post, was to ignore abuse and pretend it didn’t happen.

 

[Demetra2]

I am also a former Greek Orthodox who converted to the Catholic Church. I have found it very common among in Greek Orthodox culture to have strong anti-Catholic attitudes. I think it may come from a type of envy that Catholics have more attention or “clout” and that we have a Pope. I also believe that on a spiritual level there is a desire to be reunited with Rome but due to pride it expresses itself as anger and criticism. My own family of origin is sadly in this group. I would say that you should avoid talking about religion with your mother especially if you are not independent yet. Continue on your path to the Catholic Church but try to be patient and respectful concerning your mother. She may come around but it could be a rocky path for you so tread carefully.