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michaelpoloniae
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A truly humbling rebuke.
Perhaps it was inappropriate of me to discuss irregular occurances in what I always believed to be a universal church, and why I perceived them as divisive rather than unifying actions.
Next time I see laymen more absorbed in raising and holding hands during the Pater Noster than kneeling before the living body and blood of Christ, for example, I will be sure to keep my angry impulses to myself.
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OraLabora
Guest
We have an Eastern Catholic who regularly attends Mass at our abbey since in our rural area there is no Eastern parish.Eastern Catholics stand for Consecration. Maybe they’re visiting?
He stands for the consecration. He even crosses himself three times backwards… I had to ask my spiritual director about that “weird guy who crosses himself backwards” who’s there every Sunday. He set me straight.
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zab
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There is something beautiful and mysterious about the Latin Mass. But unless one understands Latin fluently, s/he should be reading the translations. My new appreciation for having the Mass said in English, which is easier for me to understand and follow along, should not offend those who prefer the Latin Mass. That was not the intent of my post.
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Ockham
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If you keep the focus on God and not man, if you actually pray the Mass, then there is more active participation at a TLM. Furthermore in general you have a much safer chance of abuse-free or novelties interfering with your worship. The TLM was the only option in the Latin rite for centuries and we did just fine. Since the Novus Ordo became the norm things haven’t been working out so well for the Church.
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thistle
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No. I’m saying how you handle it makes a difference.
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ProVobis
Guest
Very few who frequent the Latin Mass understand Latin fluently. The Holy Father did not make it a requirement for the church goer to know the meaning of each individual word that is recited in the Mass. The prayers of the priest are the important part and most of the prayers said are said quietly in the Latin Mass, so language shouldn’t be the problem if you have a proper method of following the Mass, such as a Missal or a special parish handout of the readings. When I attend the English OF, even there I need a Missal/missalette to follow along and I notice people around me are either following along by reading or by trying to find a missalette in their pews all the time. So I know there are others who don’t always trust their ears when listening even to a language they think they understand better. I even hear people are using their caption options on their TV’s these days so they don’t have to question what was said.
It can be frustrating but you should be able to recognize and follow the Mass in any language, for that matter, even if you don’t recognize most of the words. Otherwise the universality of the Catholic Mass is fictional.
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paperwight66
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Actually, I find this hard to picure. How big were the altar-breads used at that church? The only ones I’ve experienced wouldn’t be big enough for one bite, let alone two.
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OraLabora
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You don’t really need to know Latin fluently. It’s easy to understand the ordinary of the Mass and the responses, over time. They are the same phrases over and over again. The Propers are a bit more work but missals should have the translation. Ditto the readings, and in most places I suspect that the readings are in the vernacular anyway, or repeated in the vernacular. The homily is usually in the vernacular.
This has been the case for me in OF Masses in Latin; one presumes the EF is the same.
But it does take some time to develop the required familiarity.
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paperwight66
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michaelpoloniae;7131546if parishioners feel that's a respectful way to receive The Lord than so be it. But yes:
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valoriuslobo
Guest
Sadly true. Luther, a thorn. Most of my experience with talking about TLM to NO adherents is that they want to understand and hear the Mass in their language. But that’s why you have a missal…they never like hearing that.
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malphono
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It is.
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ProVobis
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test count
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Ockham
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How should it be handled?
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ProVobis
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They don’t even want to read it in their language? How does that make one holy?
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zab
Guest
I appreciate your kind response. I am not unfamiliar with the Latin Mass. Even as a child I felt that I understood what was going on, and I probably followed along a little better than I did more recently when I had to get reaquainted with the Latin Mass. I did have difficulty keeping up with the Eucharistic prayers of the priest and I tend to agree with you and appreciate your saying that it is not necessary for me to do so, since these are the prayers of the priest. And it is wonderful that you can go anywhere in the world and be able to follow along in the Mass. That being said, I don’t know why it should bother anyone that I have a new found appreciation for hearing the words spoken in English.
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ProVobis
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But only in English? You are satisfied with just one (name removed by moderator)ut? Through only hearing a language so full of homophones and lack of precision, no less? Don’t you think that two (name removed by moderator)uts, such as Latin and English, or English and Spanish for that matter, would provide a more memorable imprint on the mind? (What happened to stereo?
)I don’t think Vatican II limited people to hearing Mass only as a translation, as that’s all the English is. In fact, Vatican II sought to retain Latin in the liturgy with perhaps limited translations. It’s okay to appreciate the Church offering a complete translation for us but it’s okay to seek the source of the truth too, I would think.
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Bbigam
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That’s funny, since Luther spoke German, not English.
Seriously though, the issue of abuses and irreverence and the issue of vernacular vs. Latin are two very different issues. One can be quite serious about stamping out abuses, irreverence, and desecration of the Eucharist without preferring the Mass to be said in Latin. You can also appreciate the Mass said in the vernacular without being a heretical “Reformer” like Luther. You can even prefer the Mass to be in Latin (EF or OF) without demanding that the Mass always be said in Latin.
While I don’t really appreciate some of the options offered in the Ordinary Form (such as Penitential Acts B-C), I do appreciate the option to celebrate in the vernacular, as much as I love Latin as well.
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ProVobis
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I’ve never seen any abuses in the Latin NO, not that it can’t be done, but the people who show up seem to be more serious about their faith. Maybe that’s why the Church is trying to push some Latin into each liturgy?
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