My name is Peter. Please help

[7_Sorrows]

You said, “I think it reflects the american idea of independence and wanting to do things our way and not have to accommodate anyone but ourselves.” That implies selfishness.

I really am glad everything worked out well for you and your family while you lived with your parents. I’m not saying that sarcastically. If it worked for you and you enjoyed it, that’s great. And I’m sure there are plenty of other people like you with similar experiences. And that’s great, too. However, I also think it’s the exception rather than the rule, as I mentioned in one of my posts on this thread. The situation is not working for the OP, so it’s fair to bring up the fact that much of the time - but far from all of the time - a married couple and their children living with in-laws is not a good arrangement.

I agree with Mark. It was not that long ago that homes were made up of extended families. It is almost like we are ashamed of our families now. Yes you have to respect boundaries and sharing the kitchen is not easy.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My sister and her husband and their son lived happily with his parents in Europe for quite a number of years at least partly because of a good floor plan. It’s a big barn of a house (very solid!) and the in-laws got the upstairs. The in-laws put a second, smaller kitchen into the downstairs and my sister and her family lived downstairs. My sister and her family still do long visits there.

When my sister told me about the renovation to put in the kitchen she said, “That’s how I know my MIL loves me!”

I have been told that, in many parts of Europe, as many as three generations live in the same house. The oldest will inhabit the ground floor, the middle-aged the second floor and the youngest adult generation in the top floor of a three-story house.

Each generational group has its distinct responsibilities. Floor two and three may deposit their small children with One during working hours, or possibly some other ratio. Possibly a young mother on Three takes care of them all, being a stay at home mom. her ability to do that is supported by the husband on Three, the middle-agers on Two with perhaps a contribution from retirement income by One. Floor One tends to do the shopping (many Europeans shop daily for food in little specialty shops in the neighborhood) and initiate the cooking if, indeed, there is cooking. Floor Two provides most of the financial strength and Floor Three most of the physical strength and energy.

I understand that in some parts of Europe, homes like that stay in families for generations.

I can easily imagine that working out. Each generation really would have its privacy and separate living dynamic, but they would all intersect for specific purposes. But American homes are almost never designed that way, though one does see some of them in very old parts of cities; possibly a European cultural inheritance that has now disappeared.

It isn’t as if American generations don’t interact in some places. In rural areas, there is a lot of cross-generational interaction, but in separate quarters. But it’s less and less common all the time.

American homes are designed for generational autonomy. I can imagine living in that three-story arrangement, but not in most American homes because of the design.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I have been told that, in many parts of Europe, as many as three generations live in the same house. The oldest will inhabit the ground floor, the middle-aged the second floor and the youngest adult generation in the top floor of a three-story house.

Each generational group has its distinct responsibilities. Floor two and three may deposit their small children with One during working hours, or possibly some other ratio. Possibly a young mother on Three takes care of them all, being a stay at home mom. her ability to do that is supported by the husband on Three, the middle-agers on Two with perhaps a contribution from retirement income by One. Floor One tends to do the shopping (many Europeans shop daily for food in little specialty shops in the neighborhood) and initiate the cooking if, indeed, there is cooking. Floor Two provides most of the financial strength and Floor Three most of the physical strength and energy.

I understand that in some parts of Europe, homes like that stay in families for generations.

I can easily imagine that working out. Each generation really would have its privacy and separate living dynamic, but they would all intersect for specific purposes. But American homes are almost never designed that way, though one does see some of them in very old parts of cities; possibly a European cultural inheritance that has now disappeared.

It isn’t as if American generations don’t interact in some places. In rural areas, there is a lot of cross-generational interaction, but in separate quarters. But it’s less and less common all the time.

American homes are designed for generational autonomy. I can imagine living in that three-story arrangement, but not in most American homes because of the design.

You are right. Most American homes are not designed that way. I wonder how other parts of the world take care of their senior citizens too. if they are left to waste away in nursing homes like here in the U.S.
Sadly in the U.S. there are senior citizens in nursing homes whose families never come to visit them because they live in another part of the country. In the hispanic culture many generations live together.

 

[Xantippe]

I have been told that, in many parts of Europe, as many as three generations live in the same house. The oldest will inhabit the ground floor, the middle-aged the second floor and the youngest adult generation in the top floor of a three-story house.

Each generational group has its distinct responsibilities. Floor two and three may deposit their small children with One during working hours, or possibly some other ratio. Possibly a young mother on Three takes care of them all, being a stay at home mom. her ability to do that is supported by the husband on Three, the middle-agers on Two with perhaps a contribution from retirement income by One. Floor One tends to do the shopping (many Europeans shop daily for food in little specialty shops in the neighborhood) and initiate the cooking if, indeed, there is cooking. Floor Two provides most of the financial strength and Floor Three most of the physical strength and energy.

I understand that in some parts of Europe, homes like that stay in families for generations.

I can easily imagine that working out. Each generation really would have its privacy and separate living dynamic, but they would all intersect for specific purposes. But American homes are almost never designed that way, though one does see some of them in very old parts of cities; possibly a European cultural inheritance that has now disappeared.

It isn’t as if American generations don’t interact in some places. In rural areas, there is a lot of cross-generational interaction, but in separate quarters. But it’s less and less common all the time.

American homes are designed for generational autonomy. I can imagine living in that three-story arrangement, but not in most American homes because of the design.

Exactly.

The one advantage of American homes (especially newish ones) is that we have a lot of bathrooms. If our children were to live with us in young adulthood, one thing that would facilitate that is the fact that the bedrooms each have a bath. We also have a large MBR that I can imagine putting a sitting room into. Not coincidentally, I believe our house was originally built for an older European person with adult children at home.

All this trendy “open plan” stuff that you see on HGTV is not really very conducive to multigenerational living. Old-fashioned houses had a million little rooms, and not just for heating efficiency.

 

[Faithful_Seeker]

I’d like to hear Peter respond and tell us a little more. Married less than 3yrs, son about 1.5 yrs old and moved in with parents before child was born. Says the arrangement brings ‘Worst’ out in wife and almost as a side note says parents also.
Does not say what '‘dark period’ he’s gone through during this time that is better now. I’d like to know what the ‘dark place’ was about. Are we supposed to guess if it may have been jail time, drugs or alcohol addiction, a horrible car accident, or maybe questioning his faith…what does he deem as a ‘dark period’ and how does this ‘dark period’ come into play with the current living arrangement?
He says he has ‘much regret for his choices in life, namely his wife’. He asserts that the heart and attitude of his wife can end division and conflict, but doesn’t mention his own part in any conflict or situation.

My mother was very firm in her belief that 2 families should not live together, should make their own way and life. But I believe the main reason she pushed us children to be independent whether married or not, is because she knew one day we’d only have ourselves, and if married a spouse, to depend on because she and dad would be gone (God rest both their souls). She wanted us able to care for ourselves.
One can lean too much on assistance from family, to the point some can become incapable of being on their own successfully. I’m not saying it doesn’t work for some to lean on parents, I’m sure it does and I think they’re fortunate if it works. For many it doesn’t work.

For myself, I don’t care how large or how many stories a house has or how well divided, I do not want my privacy violated in any way. I don’t want or need to know when anyone else comes or goes, or how much time they spend on personal hygiene habits or if those habits are almost non existent or over done. What they eat or don’t, etc etc. Or for them to know mine.
I value my freedom to be myself, I’d never want to feel I must be on-guard because someone is looking over my shoulder or critiquing the way I cook, or clean, or any thing I might do or say or not do or say. Etc.

I believe what is missing in some situations like this one (not necessarily this one) or similar situations, is compassion and understanding.

I will pray for all involved to be willing to work together for what will be best for all involved, whatever change that results in. That all will trust in God to show them the way to peace.

 

[MarkInOregon]

You said, “I think it reflects the american idea of independence and wanting to do things our way and not have to accommodate anyone but ourselves.” That implies selfishness.

O.K. I guess I can see how you could take it that way–though that’s not what I had in mind.

As selfishness is 1.) being concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on ones own advantage, pleasure or well being without regard for others 2.) arising from concern with ones own welfare or advantage in disregard of others

I think there is a subtle difference between what I was alluding to and selfishness. I think we can seek to be independent – wanting to do things our way without it rising to the level of selfishness in that we act for our own benefit without regard for others or in disregard of them.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

No need for you to be sad Mark. I think you are viewing this through skewed eyes because of your experience and defense of your decisions

Perhaps I have a skewed vision or perhaps it is the majority of american’s that do, but I’m not making any defense for the decisions my wife and I made–they need no defense. This thread opened and continued in a vein that I found to be a rather scathing attack on the very concept of living with parents. I’m not sure such a pillorying was called for or helpful to the OP – if anything needed a defense it was the concept of living with extended family–so all I was doing, or attempting to do, was offer an alternative vision of what it can be, an example that it can work. You’d think that by merely suggesting that it can work I was somehow denying that for many it doesn’t work. I find some of the responses to this puzzling–for example I mentioned that we enjoyed meals together – and the response I get from someone is that they don’t need to live with parents or in-laws to enjoy a meal with them–as if that’s what I said or even implied. I pointed out that we enjoyed meals together because from the posts I was reading–you’d think it was impossible to enjoy anytime spent living with parents or in-laws. I wasn’t saying that it’s the only way to enjoy meals with parents/in-laws.

I get that it for many it doesn’t work but I have a hard time understanding those who say they’d rather live in a homeless shelter than with their in-laws. Perhaps they’ve lived in a homeless shelter and didn’t think it was all that bad–maybe they were lucky enough to get a bed and not end up under a bridge. Yes I know it doesn’t work for many but when I read about someone who when he visits his parents with his kids goes back into kid mode and lets his parents take care of everything for his kids–I can’t help but think --well if this is how most adults behave when they move in, of course it’s not going to work. Or when I read about someone who when visiting in-laws slaved away and was still criticized for not doing enough–well it’s not surprising it doesn’t work, but these are examples of how we should not behave–they are not caused by living with extended family.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps I have a skewed vision or perhaps it is the majority of american’s that do, but I’m not making any defense for the decisions my wife and I made–they need no defense. This thread opened and continued in a vein that I found to be a rather scathing attack on the very concept of living with parents. I’m not sure such a pillorying was called for or helpful to the OP – if anything needed a defense it was the concept of living with extended family–so all I was doing, or attempting to do, was offer an alternative vision of what it can be, an example that it can work. You’d think that by merely suggesting that it can work I was somehow denying that for many it doesn’t work. I find some of the responses to this puzzling–for example I mentioned that we enjoyed meals together – and the response I get from someone is that they don’t need to live with parents or in-laws to enjoy a meal with them–as if that’s what I said or even implied. I pointed out that we enjoyed meals together because from the posts I was reading–you’d think it was impossible to enjoy anytime spent living with parents or in-laws. I wasn’t saying that it’s the only way to enjoy meals with parents/in-laws.

I get that it for many it doesn’t work but I have a hard time understanding those who say they’d rather live in a homeless shelter than with their in-laws. Perhaps they’ve lived in a homeless shelter and didn’t think it was all that bad–maybe they were lucky enough to get a bed and not end up under a bridge. Yes I know it doesn’t work for many but when I read about someone who when he visits his parents with his kids goes back into kid mode and lets his parents take care of everything for his kids–I can’t help but think --well if this is how most adults behave when they move in, of course it’s not going to work. Or when I read about someone who when visiting in-laws slaved away and was still criticized for not doing enough–well it’s not surprising it doesn’t work, but these are examples of how we should not behave–they are not caused by living with extended family.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

What is your advice for the op?

 

[Allegra]

I find some of the responses to this puzzling–for example I mentioned that we enjoyed meals together – and the response I get from someone is that they don’t need to live with parents or in-laws to enjoy a meal with them–as if that’s what I said or even implied. I pointed out that we enjoyed meals together because from the posts I was reading–you’d think it was impossible to enjoy anytime spent living with parents or in-laws. I wasn’t saying that it’s the only way to enjoy meals with parents/in-laws.

I get that it for many it doesn’t work but I have a hard time understanding those who say they’d rather live in a homeless shelter than with their in-laws. Perhaps they’ve lived in a homeless shelter and didn’t think it was all that bad–maybe they were lucky enough to get a bed and not end up under a bridge. Mark

You seem to be implying that because most people want healthy boundaries between themselves and their parents, they can’t enjoy time spent together such as family meals. The vast majority of people enjoy family meals with their parents, but do not wish to live with them. Many people cherish memories of family outings, vacations, and camping trips with extended family. That doesn’t mean that it is good for them to be intruding on their familial and marital intimacy long term. Your second post stated that this position is somehow immature and selfish. The fact that most people do not want to live with their parents does not mean that they don’t like their parents or spending time with them. I certainly hope that you aren’t trying to instill in your own children the idea that if they don’t want to live with you when they are married and trying to start their own families, it means they don’t like you! That’s a pretty rocky guilt trip, even for Catholics!

That being said, I have, in fact, been to some homeless shelters before and they are safer for toddlers and involve far less judgment than my MIL’s home.

 

[kptrs]

Perhaps I have a skewed vision or perhaps it is the majority of american’s that do, but I’m not making any defense for the decisions my wife and I made–they need no defense. This thread opened and continued in a vein that I found to be a rather scathing attack on the very concept of living with parents. I’m not sure such a pillorying was called for or helpful to the OP – if anything needed a defense it was the concept of living with extended family–so all I was doing, or attempting to do, was offer an alternative vision of what it can be, an example that it can work. You’d think that by merely suggesting that it can work I was somehow denying that for many it doesn’t work. I find some of the responses to this puzzling–for example I mentioned that we enjoyed meals together – and the response I get from someone is that they don’t need to live with parents or in-laws to enjoy a meal with them–as if that’s what I said or even implied. I pointed out that we enjoyed meals together because from the posts I was reading–you’d think it was impossible to enjoy anytime spent living with parents or in-laws. I wasn’t saying that it’s the only way to enjoy meals with parents/in-laws.

I get that it for many it doesn’t work but I have a hard time understanding those who say they’d rather live in a homeless shelter than with their in-laws. Perhaps they’ve lived in a homeless shelter and didn’t think it was all that bad–maybe they were lucky enough to get a bed and not end up under a bridge. Yes I know it doesn’t work for many but when I read about someone who when he visits his parents with his kids goes back into kid mode and lets his parents take care of everything for his kids–I can’t help but think --well if this is how most adults behave when they move in, of course it’s not going to work. Or when I read about someone who when visiting in-laws slaved away and was still criticized for not doing enough–well it’s not surprising it doesn’t work, but these are examples of how we should not behave–they are not caused by living with extended family.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Well, what is your suggestion for those whose extended family behaves that way? If living with one’s parents means his wife will be enslaved and still accused of not doing enough, what is that husband supposed to do? I’d say the first step is to defend his wife and tell his parents they can’t treat her that way. Hopefully the behavior will stop. But if it doesn’t…don’t you think it’s reasonable to say he and his wife need to move out?

 

[Xantippe]

Well, what is your suggestion for those whose extended family behaves that way? If living with one’s parents means his wife will be enslaved and still accused of not doing enough, what is that husband supposed to do? I’d say the first step is to defend his wife and tell his parents they can’t treat her that way. Hopefully the behavior will stop. But if it doesn’t…don’t you think it’s reasonable to say he and his wife need to move out?

Around the world, just about everywhere you go, there are mother-in-law jokes.

If extended family living was usually idyllic, that wouldn’t be the case.

Also I have to add that being around in-laws can put a crimp in spousal communication. Which is why it’s especially a bad idea for newlyweds or new parents, who are adjusting to a new situation, and need to be able to have full and frank communication, without having to resort to old-time KGB type communication methods and without third and fourth parties joining in with opinions.

 

[kptrs]

Around the world, just about everywhere you go, there are mother-in-law jokes.

If extended family living was usually idyllic, that wouldn’t be the case.

Also I have to add that being around in-laws can put a crimp in spousal communication. Which is why it’s especially a bad idea for newlyweds or new parents, who are adjusting to a new situation, and need to be able to have full and frank communication, without having to resort to old-time KGB type communication methods and without third and fourth parties joining in with opinions.

Exactly.

 

[Allegra]

Around the world, just about everywhere you go, there are mother-in-law jokes.

If extended family living was usually idyllic, that wouldn’t be the case.

Also I have to add that being around in-laws can put a crimp in spousal communication. Which is why it’s especially a bad idea for newlyweds or new parents, who are adjusting to a new situation, and need to be able to have full and frank communication, without having to resort to old-time KGB type communication methods and without third and fourth parties joining in with opinions.

Right. Sometimes a person has to say something to their spouse that doesn’t need to be refereed by their parents. And sometimes it needs to be said in a loud voice.

Aside from that, it’s really hard living under a divided loyalty. A married person must put their spouse and children first and in order to do that, they need to be the authority in their own home, however, they are also obligated to respect the authority of any other adults, and particularly their parents, in their own home. You can’t have too many chiefs in your tribe or you’re headed for chaos.

 

[kptrs]

Right. Sometimes a person has to say something to their spouse that doesn’t need to be refereed by their parents. And sometimes it needs to be said in a loud voice.

Aside from that, it’s really hard living under a divided loyalty. A married person must put their spouse and children first and in order to do that, they need to be the authority in their own home, however, they are also obligated to respect the authority of any other adults, and particularly their parents, in their own home. You can’t have too many chiefs in your tribe or you’re headed for chaos.

Exactly. I think that’s why the instances in which living with in-laws works out well are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Xantippe]

Right. Sometimes a person has to say something to their spouse that doesn’t need to be refereed by their parents. And sometimes it needs to be said in a loud voice.

Aside from that, it’s really hard living under a divided loyalty. A married person must put their spouse and children first and in order to do that, they need to be the authority in their own home, however, they are also obligated to respect the authority of any other adults, and particularly their parents, in their own home. You can’t have too many chiefs in your tribe or you’re headed for chaos.

Right. Plus, it’s really lousy for the non-chiefs.

 

[MarkInOregon]

What is your advice for the op?

Well as I said in my first post–with the information he provided – I don’t think I can offer any meaningful advice. I don’t know what his wife’s attitude was or what their relationship was like before they moved in with his parents. I does seem that moving in with his parents has made things worse and that moving out would help–I just don’t know if that is possible–he didn’t give us that information. If moving out is not possible–then telling him to move out and suggesting he was an idiot for moving in with his parents (not saying you did–it was just the general tone of many posts) while berating the very idea of living with parents–just is not all that helpful. I don’t have an issue with posters suggesting he move out, but rather with the way it was done. As I said originally at this point what I can offer – is my prayers.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Still_Hoping]

Hi,

I’ve been struggling to find the right words to be coherent in what I have to say. I figured I’ll just start typing, so…

I am a devout 28 yo Catholic, married almost 3 years to my Catholic wife. We have a 1 and a half yo son. We moved into my parents home a couple of months before our son was born, and to this day I believe was the worst decision of my life (since being married). As this arrangement has only brought out the worst in my wife, and to a lesser extent, my parents also. There are many “what if’s” that go through my mind, and almost at a daily basis… I’ve gone through a very dark period during this time, and though I can say that I’m not longer at that place it’s still not easy at home. I’d be lying if I were to say I find life joyful. I wake up almost every morning wondering if today is the day God relieves me from this life (I am ashamed, as I know many people go through worse, but it is what it is).

I know I’m not perfect, and that God has His plans etc…I don’t know if this is His way of polishing me as I’ve grown a lot through this adversity, I’m grateful to God that my faith as grown through this. Still, I can’t help but to feel so much regret for not making the right ‘choices’ in life, namely my life partner. Please pray for my family.

As I have said above, I am devoutly Catholic and do plan to stick to my vows to the very end… Please, please PLEASE pray for my family that some how, with a little miracle my wife’s heart and attitude begin to breath the life of Christ and end division and conflict. May we all surrender our own desires into the pierced hands of Christ…

I welcome your advice, sharings and prayers… God bless.

Peter

Peter,

I am sure you got a lot of great advice here so I will only put my 2 cents in and briefly. There is nothing more detrimental than living with in-laws, even if you have the best intentions. The bible clearly states that when a man marries, he leaves his parent’s house to join with his wife.

Furthermore, if you are not honest and open with your wife she will believe that you inconsiderate towards her even if that is not the case.

I lived with my in-laws and it almost ended my marriage. Once I left, some things were better and other things got worse. The issue at hand is if you committed completed to your wife and new family or are you still dependent on your parents?

I don’t mean any disregard. I will pray for you.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Well as I said in my first post–with the information he provided – I don’t think I can offer any meaningful advice. I don’t know what his wife’s attitude was or what their relationship was like before they moved in with his parents. I does seem that moving in with his parents has made things worse and that moving out would help–I just don’t know if that is possible–he didn’t give us that information. If moving out is not possible–then telling him to move out and suggesting he was an idiot for moving in with his parents (not saying you did–it was just the general tone of many posts) while berating the very idea of living with parents–just is not all that helpful. I don’t have an issue with posters suggesting he move out, but rather with the way it was done. As I said originally at this point what I can offer – is my prayers.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

well said!

 

[MarkInOregon]

You seem to be implying that because most people want healthy boundaries between themselves and their parents, they can’t enjoy time spent together such as family meals. The vast majority of people enjoy family meals with their parents, but do not wish to live with them. Many people cherish memories of family outings, vacations, and camping trips with extended family. That doesn’t mean that it is good for them to be intruding on their familial and marital intimacy long term. Your second post stated that this position is somehow immature and selfish. The fact that most people do not want to live with their parents does not mean that they don’t like their parents or spending time with them. I certainly hope that you aren’t trying to instill in your own children the idea that if they don’t want to live with you when they are married and trying to start their own families, it means they don’t like you! That’s a pretty rocky guilt trip, even for Catholics!

That being said, I have, in fact, been to some homeless shelters before and they are safer for toddlers and involve far less judgment than my MIL’s home.

Allegra,

I don’t even know what to say–you’ve read so much into my posts that just simply isn’t there–that I am just not sure what to make of it or what conclusions to draw from what you read into them.

First, regarding family meals. I never implied any such thing and, as I mentioned to Hoosier Daddy, I find your response puzzling. The vast majority of posts on this thread have been an attack on the very idea or concept of living with parents/extended family–as if it was impossible to enjoy family time if you were involved in such a living arrangement – how offering an example of an experience that says well no you can live with your parents and enjoy meals – is some how implying that you can’t enjoy family meals in other settings–is just beyond me and I don’t know what to make of it.

Second, regarding selfishness–again no–you’re reading into it something that wasn’t intended. See post 46 where I address this.

In general: My word–I never said, nor really even implied, that not wanting to live with your parents means you don’t like them or like spending time with them. It is you all that are implying that it can never be a good or healthy living arrangement and that anyone who does live with their parents ought to have their head examined–I have simply offered a counter example to these beliefs–and yes I do find it sad that so many of you hold these beliefs. I don’t have a problem with the fact that many people couldn’t live with their parents or in-laws but rather with blanket attitude that’s been expressed regarding the very idea of such a living arrangement.

Finally, I’m not trying to instill any idea regarding living with parents in my children–do you even read what I write–we are hoping that the way we have raised them–the way we are treating them as they become young adults and the way we treat them when they are adults–will not lead them to find the idea or prospect of living with us–as revolting as you and many others seem to find the idea. I’m not holding it up as somehow superior to living in their own place – I am simply not making a value judgement on either living arrangement–it is you who are doing that. So perhaps since you have made a negative value judgement regarding living with parents/in-laws–that’s why you see my offering of a different view point as making a value judgement in the opposite direction–which is something that I am not doing.

I simply don’t understand why so many here can’t accept that both living arrangements can be viable living arrangements depending on the facts and circumstances and the individuals involved. I’m not the one that’s been laying a guilt trip on anyone–though from reading most of the posts on this thread you’d think my whole extended family should be visiting a shrink to see what wrong with us.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Well, what is your suggestion for those whose extended family behaves that way? If living with one’s parents means his wife will be enslaved and still accused of not doing enough, what is that husband supposed to do? I’d say the first step is to defend his wife and tell his parents they can’t treat her that way. Hopefully the behavior will stop. But if it doesn’t…don’t you think it’s reasonable to say he and his wife need to move out?

I never said it would be unreasonable and in none of my posts did I ever suggest he shouldn’t move out–and my issue is not with suggesting that they do so – if it is economically possible–my issue is with the way he’s been told to move out and what’s been implied regarding the fact that he ever moved in with them in the first place.

The peace of Christ,
Mark