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kptrs
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Right.
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MarkInOregon
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Apparently. Thank you all for your many replies regarding the problems with living with family and why you all think it is generally a bad idea. I’m going to make a few final observations about the myriad of reasons you give.
I’ve heard several times that people like husband/wife and mother/father often enjoy being king and queen of their own castle. I’m not sure I understand what you all mean by this. I will say that when I hear it I can only imagine someone who wants to be the “boss” or enjoys lording it over others pr has to have everything just so. I can only say that when we lived with my parents we had enough autonomy over our personal living space. We didn’t feel the need to control the common area or yard–anymore than I would have had we lived in an apartment complex. It just isn’t important what cupboard the plates go in or where the coffee is kept–we just don’t need that much control.
Many of the issues that I’ve seen brought up, sound to me at least, as if they spell trouble in the marriage–in the husband/wife relationship regardless of where the couple lives–though granted in those cases living with parents/in-laws would most likely exacerbate those problems. These are issues like: the husband not standing up for his wife or siding with his parents, wives siding with their parents, husbands reverting to being a “kid” at their parents house, husbands letting the wife do 99% of taking care of the children, husbands not wanting to take their wife out on a date when given the opportunity–to my way of thinking these are not issue caused by the living arrangement–though if these issues exist then living together with parents/in-laws is not going to help.
And then somethings I just don’t understand–for example: Why is it hard to ask a husband for help when your FIL is around? Why are the kids supposed to be 100% the mothers job? Why does the husband feel emasculated (this seems like a strong word) whenever his FIL wants to pay for a meal or drive? I don’t see why this is a self-esteem issue? If we go out with my parents or my wife’s–they often want to pay–they can afford it and they like to do it–we could afford to pay and I’m not sure why I should feel less of a man for letting them pay–it’s not like they’re paying because they think we can’t afford it–they just want to do it because they love us–just like I enjoy doing things for my kids. They can’t take the money with them–why should their spending of their money how they want make me feel less of a man? When on a trip together with family – letting my in-laws or my parents decide where we go – is not that big of a deal–it doesn’t reflect on my manhood–my goal is that they and my wife should have a good time. If there is something my wife and I really wanted to see or do–I’d voice that and maybe on that day–we’d do things separately–but most likely parents or in-laws would come along too–we should be able to do this without anyone getting all worked up or feeling slighted.
The one thing I will agree with is that it might be hard to assert oneself with ones parents when you are financially dependent on them. When we lived with my parents that was not the case and we actually paid them rent to cover the cost of our living there. Though I think it would not have been an issue–given my parents.
And then there’s just the plain rude behavior of parents/in-laws, for example FIL muttering under his breath, people talking loudly outside a guests door in the wee small hours…that’s just not how people should treat any house guest – family or not.
I guess I just see all these things as issues that need to be addressed for any living arrangement. I’m sure if when we had moved into my parents house–I just plopped down on the couch, expected my wife to watch the kids, my mom to cook and clean for me, and my dad to do all the work around the house–well then yes there may have been some issues. I’m sure that if my parents had told us to be home by 10:00 pm and tried to tell us how to live our lives and raise our, at that time, one child–well there may have been some issues. But to my way of thinking–those are not living arrangement issues but people behavioral issues–issues that need to be addressed regardless of living arrangements.
Somewhat tongue-in-cheek: from what I have read on this thread, I don’t think I can recommend that any two people live together, let alone extended families. I think I’d also recommend against visiting and/or vacationing with parents, in-laws, siblings or well just anyone in general really. It would appear the world has changed and we’re not in Kansas anymore. I give–let me up off the mat.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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MarkInOregon
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Don’t think I’m poor in this discussion–I enjoy it. Actually, I think I’m quite rich and blessed with regard to family and thankful that I’m not standing in the OP’s shoes. And you all have just reinforced this. I guess I’d like you to see what family life could be like (this doesn’t mean that me and my sibling don’t have issues from time to time) just that in reading the various posts–it’s like reading about a foreign land at times.
I’d like for Xantippe to be able to go with her husband to visit his parents without having to watch the kids 100% of the time, without FIL making comments under his breath, I’d like her in-laws to have the courtesy to buy a couple of baby gates, I’d like her to be able to borrow their car so that she had transportation if she needed to run out and pick up
something. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. It just shouldn’t be that hard–should it?
When UbiCaritas’ visits her husbands family I’d like for husband not to revert to being a kid at his parents house, I’d like for him to not let her do 99% of the child care, I’d like for him to take up his parents offer to babysit and take her out, I’d like for his family to show some consideration for a house guest with a small child–UbiCaritas it’s not unreasonable for you to expect them to modify their behavior a little – when you’re visiting as their guest–even if you’re family.
I like for Kelfa28 to be able to go on a vacation, with extended family, without it almost destroying her marriage.
If we don’t think that these things are possible, if we don’t work to change what needs to change in ourselves and our attitudes, and if we don’t gently let our parents and our in-laws know when they have crossed a line, if we don’t apologize when we are wrong, and if we just accept things as they are and believe they are unchangeable – then we will never have the family life we desire. Change is never easy and there may be bumpy times–but it looks like most are already experiencing bumpy times anyway–why not experience them with the hope that things might get better?
I really do wish you all well in your family relationships.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Trident_H
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Ok Good. I’m glad. I was sort of feeling bad for you in a way.
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Xantippe
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I think I could manage better today, but I’ve known my in-laws for nearly 18 years now, I’m older, more self-confident, less worried about what they think, have a well-established track record of success with my kids, and I have a stronger sense of what is reasonable and fair.
But in the early days of marriage and parenthood (which is where the OP is), I was absolutely eaten up with wanting to prove myself to my in-laws. I also didn’t have the self-confidence to talk to them about planning our visit–I was just along for the ride, which might mean a week of minding small children by myself in a strange house in the suburbs. Also, at the time, my husband’s condition of our going to visit my family and his family was his being able to work full-time while we were on the road. This added considerably to the discomfort involved in visits. So, for instance, I might find myself getting solo toddler-pacification duty in the car for an hour or so with horrible morning sickness while my husband tapped away at his laptop in the front seat. Nowadays, I wouldn’t do it. If that was the deal, I’d stay home with the kids, but at the time, I was a real Boy Scout about family visits.
It’s been a long time since we’ve all visited my in-laws. My husband has taken the big kids to see them and he works and my in-laws pretty much take care of the kids for him (not without some grumbling from FIL but husband has a thicker skin about that than I do). I’ve also had a couple of very fun trips with my MIL and the big kids to the big city. They’ve visited us, too. But I haven’t visited their house in years and I’m totally fine with that.
But in the early days of marriage and parenthood (which is where the OP is), I was absolutely eaten up with wanting to prove myself to my in-laws. I also didn’t have the self-confidence to talk to them about planning our visit–I was just along for the ride, which might mean a week of minding small children by myself in a strange house in the suburbs. Also, at the time, my husband’s condition of our going to visit my family and his family was his being able to work full-time while we were on the road. This added considerably to the discomfort involved in visits. So, for instance, I might find myself getting solo toddler-pacification duty in the car for an hour or so with horrible morning sickness while my husband tapped away at his laptop in the front seat. Nowadays, I wouldn’t do it. If that was the deal, I’d stay home with the kids, but at the time, I was a real Boy Scout about family visits.
It’s been a long time since we’ve all visited my in-laws. My husband has taken the big kids to see them and he works and my in-laws pretty much take care of the kids for him (not without some grumbling from FIL but husband has a thicker skin about that than I do). I’ve also had a couple of very fun trips with my MIL and the big kids to the big city. They’ve visited us, too. But I haven’t visited their house in years and I’m totally fine with that.
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UbiCaritas
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I suspect a lot of it has to do with memories and impressions of being with certain people in a certain space.
If you’ve always been one of the kids in a house, and you’re brought back to that physical house with your parents and younger siblings, it’s natural to revert to the behaviors that were normal and totally acceptable for you every other time you’re in that house. And if you aren’t married or what-have-you, that’s fine! So long as you pick up after yourself, and are polite about dinner when Mom makes it, and get along well with your siblings, and help entertain the younger ones a bit, then you’ll fit right back in.
Thing is, once you are married and have a kid (or kids), you still have more adult responsibilities both to your spouse and your kid, but neither of them quite fit into the equation of being in your parents’ house with your siblings and parents there because kids don’t, by definition, have a responsibility to a spouse or kids.
The real problem occurs when you honestly don’t realize that you’re doing this, that your kid needs more than food and the occasional diaper change, especially in your parents’ non-kid-proof house, and that some of that might be your responsibility.
(We won’t even get onto the subject of your parents’ pet who, for reasons best known to it, loves every human it meets (toddler included) except your wife. When it sees your wife alone or with the baby, it goes into its best rabid dog impression, making any entrance/exit of hers to or from the house or certain rooms require strategic planning that puts D-Day to shame. At this point, I’m convinced it’s a matter of time before that blasted dog bites me. Having to peer carefully around corners and doors before I walk into a room is also not my idea of a vacation.)
If you’ve always been one of the kids in a house, and you’re brought back to that physical house with your parents and younger siblings, it’s natural to revert to the behaviors that were normal and totally acceptable for you every other time you’re in that house. And if you aren’t married or what-have-you, that’s fine! So long as you pick up after yourself, and are polite about dinner when Mom makes it, and get along well with your siblings, and help entertain the younger ones a bit, then you’ll fit right back in.
Thing is, once you are married and have a kid (or kids), you still have more adult responsibilities both to your spouse and your kid, but neither of them quite fit into the equation of being in your parents’ house with your siblings and parents there because kids don’t, by definition, have a responsibility to a spouse or kids.
The real problem occurs when you honestly don’t realize that you’re doing this, that your kid needs more than food and the occasional diaper change, especially in your parents’ non-kid-proof house, and that some of that might be your responsibility.
(We won’t even get onto the subject of your parents’ pet who, for reasons best known to it, loves every human it meets (toddler included) except your wife. When it sees your wife alone or with the baby, it goes into its best rabid dog impression, making any entrance/exit of hers to or from the house or certain rooms require strategic planning that puts D-Day to shame. At this point, I’m convinced it’s a matter of time before that blasted dog bites me. Having to peer carefully around corners and doors before I walk into a room is also not my idea of a vacation.)
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Xantippe
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Exactly.
And there’s a problem that it can take a while to figure out that this is what’s going on.
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Atheling2
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It’s very interesting to see how many people think living with one’s parents is somehow a problem.
Many other cultures have extended family living with them. As a part Asian person, my widowed mother lived with my married sister, her husband and children until her death, for over 10 years. None of us would dream of sending Mom off to a nursing home or have her live alone.
Many other cultures have extended family living with them. As a part Asian person, my widowed mother lived with my married sister, her husband and children until her death, for over 10 years. None of us would dream of sending Mom off to a nursing home or have her live alone.
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UbiCaritas
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Or even that it’s a problem.
In our case, pre-DD he simply never had to do more than an allotted twenty minutes of babysitting here or there, or the occasional evening. He doesn’t understand what long-term childcare is like. He thinks I should just “hang out” with everyone…but how can I, when they’re all gaming together and in a room that DD can’t go into anyway?
He also doesn’t have the same relationship with DD that I have. He can sit and read and she’ll play nicely next to him, but if my butt goes horizontal to the floor at any point and she’s not on my lap or being played with by me, she’s having a massive, screaming tantrum because she’s not the sole focus of my attention.
The last straw at the previous visit was somewhere around day 8, when several of them decided that one gaming setup wasn’t enough, they also had to take over the room in which DD plays, leaving her nowhere even remotely safe to be on the floor. I was walking in circles around the house with a tantrumming baby on my hip for the next hour or so until I could start getting her ready for bed. That did it. No more long visits. If DH wants to go out there for ten days, he can, but I’m calling it quits at day four. I don’t think we’re going to resolve it any other way: he thinks I’m being unreasonable, cold, and self-centered, and I think that he’s thinking and acting like a teenager and not a grown man while he’s out there. It’s not a battle I’m going to win, so I’m not going to fight it, but I’m not going to jump into the middle of it, either.
I should add that we ordinarily have a pretty good marriage, but that those visits and the month or so surrounding them are inevitably low points in it.
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7_Sorrows
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I had neighbors who were Vietnamese and the mother lived with them for over 10 years because she was widowed. Sometimes she would go 2 weeks in the summer to stay with a sister. As far as I know she is still living with them unless she passed away in the last year. In the Asian and Latin American communities it is very common and they don’t complain.
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MarkInOregon
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At the risk of doing what I say parents and in-laws should not do, but then you did post on an internet forum: you do realize that you can change this don’t you? It will be unpleasant for a time, but you can get that behavior to stop. It’s not fun in short-term but it will make the long-term much more pleasant. At least that has been our experience.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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UbiCaritas
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(Edited on second thought to remove uncharitable comments. They weren’t about any of the posters here.
)I’m open to suggestions. I’m not willing to spank her; while I’m not opposed to spanking in all circumstances, I have a history of physical abuse in my family, and that coupled with my short temper does not make for a good mix with spanking. I’m genuinely afraid that if I ever allowed myself to spank her, I’d go too far.
She’s too young to understand about time-outs. The concept of “stay in one spot” just isn’t there yet. If it were, I’d use time-outs/a naughty seat. I think she’s still a few months off from that, though.
The best I’ve come up with is perhaps setting up a playpen and using it like “baby jail” for this sort of behavior, but I’m not sure that that will teach her self-control, since she’s physically restrained in it. I could be wrong. This parenting thing is hard.
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pensmama87
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Yes. Baby jail.
I was reluctant to put my oldest in baby jail, now he’s 4 and just as determined to not be punished and bigger, stronger, faster - plus with two younger brothers he can set a great example for.
She’s over a year, she can handle it. The key is to be not emotional. It’s not about making her feel bad, just establishing that if she wants to be with you, she can’t whine/scream/cry/pull at you. And when she’s with you and behaving, cuddle her like crazy.
I was reluctant to put my oldest in baby jail, now he’s 4 and just as determined to not be punished and bigger, stronger, faster - plus with two younger brothers he can set a great example for.
She’s over a year, she can handle it. The key is to be not emotional. It’s not about making her feel bad, just establishing that if she wants to be with you, she can’t whine/scream/cry/pull at you. And when she’s with you and behaving, cuddle her like crazy.
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Xantippe
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Awful!
What does DH say to the idea that he should take over DD while you go for a nice walk, nice bath, etc? Or does DD not allow you to leave?
Things may get better as the younger siblings start having families of their own and it becomes clearer and clearer to everybody that the status quo is not very family-friendly.
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Xantippe
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UbiCaritas’s DD is still an infant (or at most a very small toddler).
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Xantippe
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Also, I have to add that parenting small children in front of in-laws can also be harrowing, especially when it’s time for tough love.
When our Middle Kid was probably 9 months old and Big Girl was 3, we were spending Christmas with my in-laws. Unfortunately Middle Kid was not sleeping well on the trip, as he was so bonded with his crib back home. But, we didn’t discover this until we were three thousand miles away from the comfy crib…My FIL was scandalized by the fact that we left the baby to cry it out in his Pack N Play–but there was no other obvious solution (he had never co-slept before). We all had some bad nights and FIL was sure that we were doing it wrong although he certainly didn’t have any constructive suggestions.
On the same trip, Middle Kid wasn’t napping in the Pack N Play but was falling asleep in his stroller. We all went for a day trip to the big city. On the way back, Middle Kid, who hadn’t napped, was crying in his car seat. I knew for a fact that all we had to do was let him cry for 10 minutes and he’d be out like a light, but FIL was very upset by the fact that the baby was crying. FIL was sure that there was something I could do to calm Middle Kid, and that for whatever reason I wasn’t doing it. Fortunately, Middle Kid fell asleep right on schedule.
It’s that sort of thing that makes parenting under the in-law roof such a joy.
When our Middle Kid was probably 9 months old and Big Girl was 3, we were spending Christmas with my in-laws. Unfortunately Middle Kid was not sleeping well on the trip, as he was so bonded with his crib back home. But, we didn’t discover this until we were three thousand miles away from the comfy crib…My FIL was scandalized by the fact that we left the baby to cry it out in his Pack N Play–but there was no other obvious solution (he had never co-slept before). We all had some bad nights and FIL was sure that we were doing it wrong although he certainly didn’t have any constructive suggestions.
On the same trip, Middle Kid wasn’t napping in the Pack N Play but was falling asleep in his stroller. We all went for a day trip to the big city. On the way back, Middle Kid, who hadn’t napped, was crying in his car seat. I knew for a fact that all we had to do was let him cry for 10 minutes and he’d be out like a light, but FIL was very upset by the fact that the baby was crying. FIL was sure that there was something I could do to calm Middle Kid, and that for whatever reason I wasn’t doing it. Fortunately, Middle Kid fell asleep right on schedule.
It’s that sort of thing that makes parenting under the in-law roof such a joy.
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UbiCaritas
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For those interested, DD is now a year and a half.
DH is actually rather good about that sort of thing. DD isn’t thrilled that I leave, but by three minutes later is chill and happy with Daddy. (He’s sent video texts of her “dancing” to his favorite music moments after I leave…it’s pretty cute.
)He’s very good at the concrete “I need you to take DD while I take a bath.” It’s the all-day mindnumbing stuff that makes those visits rough.
Yes, I think that’s the case. A month after DD was born, one sister-in-law came to visit. I was exhausted from parenting a newborn and still recovering from a C-section. DD was staaaaaaarting to get on a loose eat-play-sleep schedule, and when she’d sleep I’d rest, either napping or just relaxing with my feet up.
SIL, an adult at the time, not only didn’t help with DD or house stuff, but was disappointed that I wasn’t interested in waking DD up from a nap to walk a half mile each way to go somewhere she wanted to go on the spur of the moment. I said little, contenting myself with thinking “just wait 'til you have kids!”
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Xantippe
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How about more outings rather than all this hanging around the house?For those interested, DD is now a year and a half.
DH is actually rather good about that sort of thing. DD isn’t thrilled that I leave, but by three minutes later is chill and happy with Daddy. (He’s sent video texts of her “dancing” to his favorite music moments after I leave…it’s pretty cute.
He’s very good at the concrete “I need you to take DD while I take a bath.” It’s the all-day mindnumbing stuff that makes those visits rough.
Yes, I think that’s the case. A month after DD was born, one sister-in-law came to visit. I was exhausted from parenting a newborn and still recovering from a C-section. DD was staaaaaaarting to get on a loose eat-play-sleep schedule, and when she’d sleep I’d rest, either napping or just relaxing with my feet up.
SIL, an adult at the time, not only didn’t help with DD or house stuff, but was disappointed that I wasn’t interested in waking DD up from a nap to walk a half mile each way to go somewhere she wanted to go on the spur of the moment. I said little, contenting myself with thinking “just wait 'til you have kids!”
That’s the killer, in my experience.
Although if you’re only going to do 4 days at a time from now on, it doesn’t really matter.
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UbiCaritas
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This is absolutely true. The reason I agreed to stay as long as we did last time was that I was told that I’d have access to a car most of the time, so I could take DD on our usual afternoon outing. I always take her for a long walk in the morning. Various and sundry Things Happened, and I got the car for one afternoon out of nine. I grant that it certainly wasn’t deliberate, and that the people who had the use of the car needed it more than I did at the time. Lesson learned, though.
She was napping twice a day then, and I tallied (why yes, I was quite angry about this, why d’you ask?) that she got woken up partway through her nap or after she’d gone to sleep at night 30-50% of the time, and always by people yelling or slamming stuff near her door–never maliciously, just not thinking. Sleep deprivation and boredom on both our parts and little-to-no leisure time on mine was not a good combination, and contributed heavily to my overall resentment…
DH thinks that getting a rental car would be an unnecessary expense and would be seen as being insulting to the in-laws, ditto staying anywhere but their house.
In reading this, I worry that I probably come across as not liking the in-laws. Nothing could be further from the truth: I love them immensely, every one of them! Their house and family culture just aren’t set up right now for a baby, or someone who needs to take care of a baby.
In short, my future plan is a) no longer than 3-4 days, b) bring two of the loudest white noise machines I can find, one for DD and one for me, and c) try for an outing every afternoon if at all possible.
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Xantippe
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Do you have any hope of getting through to your husband–ever? Maybe he needs longer child-care stretches to help him get the idea? If you guys are going to have more kids, he needs to get used to spending more one-on-one time with the kid.
I also have a more hopeful addendum.
My in-laws used to live in a far-out suburb with huge lots and nothing within reasonable walking distance but a playground (20+ minutes?) and a coffee shop (30 minutes?) with (as I recall) practically no sidewalks. Problem is, that area is famous for chilly rain, so on any Christmas visit, we were guaranteed to be locked up at home. It was almost OK during the summer. We rarely went to the Cool Big City, because it was a very far out suburb.
However, the good news is that my in-laws recently bought a lovely close-in home within long walking and close driving distance of many of the amenities in Cool Big City. I haven’t seen it yet, but it’s everything I would have loved during the Christmas Jail years. Also, this past visit, they put the big kids into a half-day sailing camp and they had all sorts of scheduled activities for the kids. (Big Girl was exhausted. Middle Kid LOVED it.) So, they obviously learned a lot from having full-responsibility for the big kids the previous summer.
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