My neice is playing online games with occult themes?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Despite the rantings of some who choose to believe that all occurences of symbolism in video games is purely for aesthetic reasons I think we should be equally open to the idea that some of these designers are actually familiar with the use of these symbols in an religious (neopagan/occult) context.

Author intent is irrelevant. Much of modern literary theory and criticism focuses on the pointlessness of caring about how to interpret this or that through the eyes of the author. Throw in the chaos and utter lack of predictability in how people interpret the symbols all around them, and any attempt at claiming there is influence is nothing short of pointless speculation.

The truth is you’re not so special. You do not have ‘eyes to see’ more than anyone else. You see the pentagram or the Emerald Tablet in a game that features alchemy as an in-universe fantasy phenomenon and start screaming, singing, and dancing about how it’s people broadcasting the occult. I and half the gamers around me would care more about where to find the in-game items needed to craft the tablet and see how much it sells in the in-game market.

 

[veilofveronica]

Hi there,

I personally think that these things are dangerous. I was involved in the occult for many years, and my interest started innocently and at a young age. The pre-and teen years are prime years for occult interest and involvement, and it’s not harmless or silly. The occult is real, and dangerous, and can be accessed through things that seem like simple fantasy.

I do have a real problem with Harry Potter. No, the witchcraft in the books and movies is not like witchcraft in real life (I was a witch and wiccan for several years, before, by the Grace of God, returning to the RC Church last year), but the problem is, it opens the door to other practices by proclaiming that magic is “good” and witchcraft is harmless. Some young people and readers of the books etc don’t get into witchcraft through exposure, but many do. They become curious about what real wicca and witchcraft practice is like, and there is tons of information readily accessible to people on the internet, for example, and in the local bookstore about these practices. Many of it is also targeted directly at teens.

While the Church does not have an official stance on Harry Potter, there are some that have warned against it (such as former leading exorist Fr. Gabriele Amorth).

If your neice is saying she wants to investigate becoming a “real” witch or wizard, therein lies the issue. There are many people out there that are all too happy to help out young people that want to investigate the occult.

Pray to Our Lady and St. Michael that she be shown the way. What do her parents think of this?

Some may think I’m being extreme, but after seeing how deeply I got involved in the occult, and many others like me, I know what a slippery slope it is. The new age is a back door for evil to enter, and it can happen through many “innocent” looking passages.

God Bless.

 

[kinja]

Reread mine. Simply stating that any mention of the occult in any medium is “possibly” insidious is not only factually inaccurate, but also intellectually lazy in the extreme.

My point was that the occult is present. I specifically spoke about certain instances of occult concepts being used not all and I gave examples.

If one is going to disregard or condemn something on, say, the basis of the occult, then some reason for doing so is needed, lest Catholicism and its adherents become equivalent to the fundamentalist fearmongers omnipresent today.

I have said it before and I repeat again it’s one thing to be a fearmonger and another to be apathetic. Also only God is omnipresent so please understand the words you use. I would rather say that caution should be used by parents as well as adults in what we “consume” from media sources.

Please point out a video game (to restrict the scope to that in the OP) in which you believe that the inclusion of occult symbols has malevolent intent, and briefly explain why. Given that you admit the possibility of this, it should be exceedingly easy to do.

I already said that I do not know what the intent of the game developer is but I do know that some games introduce young players to occult concepts. Read the link I posted last by Erik Davis and you will understand what I am trying to say. A neopagan game designer may have no evil intent when he incorporates his magic ritual into a game but the net effect is a young person who knows more aboout some obscure occult concept thatn they do about their own religion. The games I listed you can easily check out yourself on youtube or your nearest game rental.

None of those things could possibly be construed as dangerously occult in the Catholic context, since you are expanding the occult to levels that the Church does not – i.e., all “hidden” knowledge, where hidden is broadly defined as “things we do not understand.”

I never used that term. My point was that young and/or impressionable people could be led astray if they were not grounded in their faith.

Yeah, that is obvious. Some things in video games – like showing magic/the devil/Greek gods – are obviously pagan/occult. That does not mean that they are anything other than plot devices and/or atmosphere creators.

Yes agreed but in the same breath they could be more than simply atmos creators if we want to be objective. There are quite a few pagans/neopagans in the industry so it isn’t a far fetched notion.

Furthermore, the excerpt you posted has zero substantiation within it. Where are the studies demonstrating this? I care little for what one person has to say about something that is statistically verifiable.

And once you present a shred of compelling evidence for one video game, your point will be all the much stronger.

Did you even read it? Where are the studies demonstrating that the use of these symbols are purely for atmosphere? Should we believe everything that an interviewed game designer tells us as God’s truth if they even do comment on the concepts used in the game?

Whether the intention is good or bad some of the concepts are clearly occult. That is the point. What parents or guardians choose to do about it is totally up to them. I advise all parents to spend time with their kids doing what they enjoy as well so they can lead from in front more effectively.

Don’t worry the evidence you seek is coming soon.

 

[kinja]

Hi there,

I personally think that these things are dangerous. I was involved in the occult for many years, and my interest started innocently and at a young age. The pre-and teen years are prime years for occult interest and involvement, and it’s not harmless or silly. The occult is real, and dangerous, and can be accessed through things that seem like simple fantasy.

I do have a real problem with Harry Potter. No, the witchcraft in the books and movies is not like witchcraft in real life (I was a witch and wiccan for several years, before, by the Grace of God, returning to the RC Church last year), but the problem is, it opens the door to other practices by proclaiming that magic is “good” and witchcraft is harmless. Some young people and readers of the books etc don’t get into witchcraft through exposure, but many do. They become curious about what real wicca and witchcraft practice is like, and there is tons of information readily accessible to people on the internet, for example, and in the local bookstore about these practices. Many of it is also targeted directly at teens.

While the Church does not have an official stance on Harry Potter, there are some that have warned against it (such as former leading exorist Fr. Gabriele Amorth).

If your neice is saying she wants to investigate becoming a “real” witch or wizard, therein lies the issue. There are many people out there that are all too happy to help out young people that want to investigate the occult.

Pray to Our Lady and St. Michael that she be shown the way. What do her parents think of this?

Some may think I’m being extreme, but after seeing how deeply I got involved in the occult, and many others like me, I know what a slippery slope it is. The new age is a back door for evil to enter, and it can happen through many “innocent” looking passages.

God Bless.

God bless you. I’ve heard testimonies like yours. Welcome back and i hope your words can provide some nurishment for many.

 

[Baelor]

My point was that the occult is present. I specifically spoke about certain instances of occult concepts being used not all and I gave examples.

But the occult being present is irrelevant. That is not controversial. No one is concerned about a book in which the devil is defeated in the end. It is the book in which he is glorified that sparks debate.

I have said it before and I repeat again it’s one thing to be a fearmonger and another to be apathetic.

No kidding – they are completely different things.

Also only God is omnipresent so please understand the words you use.

It is called hyperbole, defined as “exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally” according to one dictionary. The meaning intended was that there are many fundamentalist fearmongers. I am sorry if English is not your first language/you are a very literal person; I will avoid all rhetoric involving anything other than literal definition in the future.

I would rather say that caution should be used by parents as well as adults in what we “consume” from media sources.

Caution is good.

I already said that I do not know what the intent of the game developer is but I do know that some games introduce young players to occult concepts.

The problem is with the gamers then, not with the games. If you follow that line of reasoning, then you cannot, without a contradiction within your line of reasoning, urge caution for Harry Potter, only for Harry Potter in the case that the person reading it is already tempted to try the occult.

A neopagan game designer may have no evil intent when he incorporates his magic ritual into a game but the net effect is a young person who knows more aboout some obscure occult concept thatn they do about their own religion.

Again, a problem with the person, not the game. The proper instruction in that case is not to caution against the game, but to encourage the person to learn more about his faith.

The games I listed you can easily check out yourself on youtube or your nearest game rental.

I know that. It is still not clear to me how they could even influence anyone to pursue the occult.

I never used that term. My point was that young and/or impressionable people could be led astray if they were not grounded in their faith.

Actually, you did:

…starts “looking” glaringly more like a play to the ancient egyptian concept of stargates and interdimensional travel and alien visitation and communication (occult).

Unless you can tell me where the Church states that interdimensional travel and alien visitation are occult, we have a problem.

Yes agreed but in the same breath they could be more than simply atmos creators if we want to be objective. There are quite a few pagans/neopagans in the industry so it isn’t a far fetched notion.

Really? Prove it. Show me the study. I want to believe you, but I need evidence, given that this is a quantifiable issue.

Did you even read it?

Yes.

Where are the studies demonstrating that the use of these symbols are purely for atmosphere?

There are none. Show me where I claimed they were, or where I stated that we could definitively know motive in every circumstance. If you do not respond to this, I will assume recognition that I did not.

Furthermore, that does not mean that we cannot make educated decisions about intent and meaning.

Should we believe everything that an interviewed game designer tells us as God’s truth if they even do comment on the concepts used in the game?

No.

Whether the intention is good or bad some of the concepts are clearly occult. That is the point.

No, it is not. The point is that media can be beneficial or not. It depends on the person involved, so one should not caution against Harry Potter, one should encourage someone for whom one is concerned to learn more about the faith.

Unless something is actually occult in nature or message, the problem is squarely with those who interact with it.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

You want to know what started my curiosity in the “occult” when I was younger? A Christian. One who warned me in grave tones about a music artist I listened to was a witch (if you are old enough you probably know who the artist is). Anyway, a friend and I thought this was ridiculous and started reading about witchcraft and the occult, we invented our own language, and probably would have created rituals if we hadn’t gotten bored with it all. It wasn’t real, there were no deities or spirits involved (we didn’t go that far; there was no dabbling). After that we went back breaking into the theater to play piano and dance (spazz hands!) on the stage with other friends.

If someone gets into the occult after reading/watching HP, I submit that they were already on that track and that they sadly missed the point of HP.

Most people I know that are into Harry Potter are not interested in the occult. They are interested in the the story, how it relates to everyday life, the common connection with other fans that, beyond that connection, are strangers. When I went to a midnight release o) I ended up chatting with a couple of young-ish women about HP recipies and if there was actually a good one for Butterbeer (one not gag-worthy) and looking at fan art on our smart phones. Others have been inspired to start writing their own stories, some taking HP to to a very different place ( AVPM for example.) Some of it is silly but it’s far from occultish.

I read a commentary that suggested that if a person is unfamiliar with the gospel they won’t truly understand HP. I think this is true. There is also a lot of British/English symbolism woven into the story that points to Christ. Some of it’s obvious but there is quite a bit that is subtle but only because most people aren’t up on botanical symbolism (Harry’s wand is Holly - hello!!!)

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

While the Church does not have an official stance on Harry Potter, there are some that have warned against it (such as former leading exorist Fr. Gabriele Amorth).

The same Amorth who allegedly claimed that the devil has infiltrated the Vatican. Take him with a grain of salt. Even veteran exorcists have a nasty tendency to see the devil in everything. In fact, I would theorize that them spending too much in the field actually makes them increasingly susceptible to such paranoia.

If your neice is saying she wants to investigate becoming a “real” witch or wizard, therein lies the issue. There are many people out there that are all too happy to help out young people that want to investigate the occult.

Pray to Our Lady and St. Michael that she be shown the way. What do her parents think of this?

I do have a real problem with Harry Potter. No, the witchcraft in the books and movies is not like witchcraft in real life (I was a witch and wiccan for several years, before, by the Grace of God, returning to the RC Church last year), but the problem is, it opens the door to other practices by proclaiming that magic is “good” and witchcraft is harmless. Some young people and readers of the books etc don’t get into witchcraft through exposure, but many do. They become curious about what real wicca and witchcraft practice is like, and there is tons of information readily accessible to people on the internet, for example, and in the local bookstore about these practices. Many of it is also targeted directly at teens.

You do realize that once you see that difference, to go from one to the other would mean that you’re:

a) Stupid
b) Crazy
c) Stupid and Crazy
d) Stupid, Crazy, and need to take a science class

It’s blunt. It’s harsh. It’s the truth.
I’ve been surrounded by fantasy since I was a kid. From Disney fairy tales and He-Man to Harry Potter and Final Fantasy, the one time I ever looked up what ‘real magic’ was like, I almost puked and dived even deeper into fantasy from sheer revulsion. If anything it made me play more, read more, and reject the occult more (not to mention it gave me more reason to deduct more points from reality ).

Some may think I’m being extreme, but after seeing how deeply I got involved in the occult, and many others like me, I know what a slippery slope it is. The new age is a back door for evil to enter, and it can happen through many “innocent” looking passages.

Correction: It’s a slippery slope for those who have to mental left feet.

 

[kinja]

It is called hyperbole, defined as “exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally” according to one dictionary. The meaning intended was that there are many fundamentalist fearmongers. I am sorry if English is not your first language/you are a very literal person; I will avoid all rhetoric involving anything other than literal definition in the future.

The reason I said so is that calling anyone/anything outside of God omnipresent minimizes God since He is the only omnipresent peing in existence. I am not disputing the use of hyperbole or any other device but I think the flippant use of attributes held only by God (at least in “western theism”) is where I have a problem not device use in general. Sorry I was not clear.

The problem is with the gamers then, not with the games. If you follow that line of reasoning, then you cannot, without a contradiction within your line of reasoning, urge caution for Harry Potter, only for Harry Potter in the case that the person reading it is already tempted to try the occult.
.

Of course we should encourage them to know more about their faith. But both things are happening in parallel and I think it would take a child longer to understand the value of their faith than learn about the occult.

And I bvelieve it is good for anyone to urge caution on Harry Potter and certain games for especially young people. What you are suggesting is akin to trying to coach a group of children how to run hurdles while they are actually on the track running as opposed to cautioning them to avoid trying to jump them until they learn how to run the race properly.

Alot of young people have entered into this world of magic and fantasy already with a deficit in knowledge about their faith due to a variety of factors.

I know that. It is still not clear to me how they could even influence anyone to pursue the occult.

That should be evident to you based on how young people learn by example, are naturally inquisitive and like to play with “fire”. I personally know of many students in high school especially in the south where my brother teaches who are involved in the occult and routinely wear magical “guards” and various symbols like the anhk, inverted pentagram and so on to school.

Some have saaid that they get interested in it from the games and there are people in their towns who actually teach them occult practices to gain some form of personal power.
Some students who have had to be delivered or exorcised in the past 2 years have claimed that they practiced various forms of divination, spell casting and astrology to get good grades, be popular in school or win the love of another student in school. They find spells on youtube and some of them pass around occult manuals/instructional books between each other.

In a society where secularism is pushing aside “organised religion” in favour of any other religious view it is easy for their faith to be invisible to them. Encouraging them to know their faith is only one strategy of what needs to be a multipronged approach.

Unless you can tell me where the Church states that interdimensional travel and alien visitation are occult, we have a problem.

I do not want to stray too much off topic but the Ancient Egyptians like Aleister Crowley believed in interdimensional travel by spirits not Aliens in the scientific sense of the word but creatures not from this realm.

Mr. Crowley went a step further to devise methods using a mixture of ancient occult rituals as well as his own blasphemous rites in order to open gateways to allow demons to pass into this realm and communicate with them as well. This was written about in his writings the culmination of which was at his mansion at Loch Ness. So the crowlean use of symbols is pretty unique in this context and an “educated guess” as you put it would point to the use of symbols in this context being occult.

Furthermore, that does not mean that we cannot make educated decisions about intent and meaning.

Yes but what “facts” are you basing your educated guess upon? So far neither side has provided any facts apart from the fact that some of the same symbols have been used by both Christian and Occult practictioners and that occult “themes” are present in some games.

No, it is not. The point is that media can be beneficial or not. It depends on the person involved, so one should not caution against Harry Potter, one should encourage someone for whom one is concerned to learn more about the faith.

I personally think we should encourage both.

Unless something is actually occult in nature or message, the problem is squarely with those who interact with it.

It something is “squarely” occult in nature or message then it should be prohibited by all catholics. If it has some occult content in it them I see no problem in catholics warning the young/impressionable about it for their sakes.

A few decades ago this same church would have made alot more noise about such things that it is now silent or neutral on now. I don’t know that this change is merely due to the availability of more information or just the church not wanting to be viewed as the enemy of contemporary art and culture.

 

[kinja]

The same Amorth who allegedly claimed that the devil has infiltrated the Vatican. Take him with a grain of salt. Even veteran exorcists have a nasty tendency to see the devil in everything. In fact, I would theorize that them spending too much in the field actually makes them increasingly susceptible to such paranoia.
.

Makes sense. Much like I think you spending too much time in fantasy land has made you more susceptible to viewing that world and it’s designers in a subjective and biased way.

You do realize that once you see that difference, to go from one to the other would mean that you’re:

a) Stupid
b) Crazy
c) Stupid and Crazy
d) Stupid, Crazy, and need to take a science class

Tsk tsk. Some people just don’t have any soft skills or intelligence to know just a little politeness and respect for the views of others I see.

It’s blunt. It’s harsh. It’s the truth.

I think disrespectful and uncouth are much more accurate words to use to describe the above diatribe.

I’ve been surrounded by fantasy since I was a kid. From Disney fairy tales and He-Man to Harry Potter and Final Fantasy, the one time I ever looked up what ‘real magic’ was like, I almost puked and dived even deeper into fantasy from sheer revulsion. If anything it made me play more, read more, and reject the occult more (not to mention it gave me more reason to deduct more points from reality ).

Hence why I think it is difficult to have confidence in an objective opinion from you on this matter given the insults and rhetoric especially.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Makes sense. Much like I think you spending too much time in fantasy land has made you more susceptible to viewing that world and it’s designers in a subjective and biased way.

Here’s the difference. I’ve got proof. I’ve got education. What paranoids like you have usually winds down in the bowels of superstition.

I’ve frankly lost count of how many times I’ve presented fact upon fact on how the entire human populations rips any intended message to shreds once it’s served on the plate of popular fiction. In the end all you do is throw temper tantrums, shake your head, and keep saying “Naw, naw, naw!”

Tsk tsk. Some people just don’t have any soft skills or intelligence to know just a little politeness and respect for the views of others I see.

You’re missing something.

holds mirror to your face

There that’s better.

I think disrespectful and uncouth are much more accurate words to use to describe the above diatribe.

While unintelligent and irrelevant would best describe the quoted rant.

Hence why I think it is difficult to have confidence in an objective opinion from you on this matter given the insults and rhetoric especially.

Yes, the same way it’s difficult to have a confidence in an objective opinion from a biologist on matters of evolution, given the harsh facts and logic especially.

Are you done wasting people’s time now or you do want this thread revamped again?

 

[Baelor]

The reason I said so is that calling anyone/anything outside of God omnipresent minimizes God since He is the only omnipresent peing in existence. I am not disputing the use of hyperbole or any other device but I think the flippant use of attributes held only by God (at least in “western theism”) is where I have a problem not device use in general. Sorry I was not clear.

I will avoid any non-literal language, so as to avoid touching on some nerve, the nature of which I would not even try to guess.

Of course we should encourage them to know more about their faith. But both things are happening in parallel and I think it would take a child longer to understand the value of their faith than learn about the occult.

I have no way to verify that response, so I will not respond in turn.

And I bvelieve it is good for anyone to urge caution on Harry Potter and certain games for especially young people. What you are suggesting is akin to trying to coach a group of children how to run hurdles while they are actually on the track running as opposed to cautioning them to avoid trying to jump them until they learn how to run the race properly.

What? Not at all. There is no reason to caution generally against Harry Potter, given that you yourself have conceded – as I have noted – that it comes down to the person involved. If the child knows nothing little about his faith, I would encourage him to read something about the faith before/simultaneously with the book/whatever in question. If he is secure in his faith at a level appropriate for that age, there is no problem. And Harry Potter would never be on my list of questionable books, by the way.

Alot of young people have entered into this world of magic and fantasy already with a deficit in knowledge about their faith due to a variety of factors.

Magic and fantasy that are on a page or screen are not inherently dangerous.

That should be evident to you based on how young people learn by example, are naturally inquisitive and like to play with “fire”. I personally know of many students in high school especially in the south where my brother teaches who are involved in the occult and routinely wear magical “guards” and various symbols like the anhk, inverted pentagram and so on to school.

And I know none. Why should I value your anecdotal evidence over my own?

Some students who have had to be delivered or exorcised in the past 2 years

Really? Where are the records on the exorcisms?

Encouraging them to know their faith is only one strategy of what needs to be a multipronged approach.

And censorship is a totally inappropriate prong in this approach.

I do not want to stray too much off topic but the Ancient Egyptians like Aleister Crowley believed in interdimensional travel by spirits not Aliens in the scientific sense of the word but creatures not from this realm.

Aleister Crowley was not an Ancient Egyptian. And “interdimensional travel” is not occult by the standards of the Church, as I mentioned, any more than dragons or any other nonexistent thing or phenomenon is occult. To quote myself, “Unless you can tell me where the Church states that interdimensional travel and alien visitation are occult, we have a problem.”

So the crowlean use of symbols is pretty unique in this context and an “educated guess” as you put it would point to the use of symbols in this context being occult.

You are correct. Could you point out a video game with this in it?

Yes but what “facts” are you basing your educated guess upon? So far neither side has provided any facts apart from the fact that some of the same symbols have been used by both Christian and Occult practictioners and that occult “themes” are present in some games.

What? I have not forwarded any general thesis. I am saying it is a game-by-game judgment.

I personally think we should encourage both.

The Church disagrees, and her teaching is good enough for me.

If it has some occult content in it them I see no problem in catholics warning the young/impressionable about it for their sakes.

Yes, but in the proper manner: to tell them to notice the occult things, and then to have a conversation between parent and child afterward discussing them and learning more about Catholicism.

Let it stand there no proof or justification has been offered for either of the following:

1. That there are “quite a few paganists etc.” in the technical fields
2. That any particular video game has subversive occult content

 

[kinja]

You want to know what started my curiosity in the “occult” when I was younger? A Christian. One who warned me in grave tones about a music artist I listened to was a witch (if you are old enough you probably know who the artist is). Anyway, a friend and I thought this was ridiculous and started reading about witchcraft and the occult, we invented our own language, and probably would have created rituals if we hadn’t gotten bored with it all. It wasn’t real, there were no deities or spirits involved (we didn’t go that far; there was no dabbling). After that we went back breaking into the theater to play piano and dance (spazz hands!) on the stage with other friends.

If someone gets into the occult after reading/watching HP, I submit that they were already on that track and that they sadly missed the point of HP.

Most people I know that are into Harry Potter are not interested in the occult. They are interested in the the story, how it relates to everyday life, the common connection with other fans that, beyond that connection, are strangers. When I went to a midnight release o) I ended up chatting with a couple of young-ish women about HP recipies and if there was actually a good one for Butterbeer (one not gag-worthy) and looking at fan art on our smart phones. Others have been inspired to start writing their own stories, some taking HP to to a very different place ( AVPM for example.) Some of it is silly but it’s far from occultish.

I read a commentary that suggested that if a person is unfamiliar with the gospel they won’t truly understand HP. I think this is true. There is also a lot of British/English symbolism woven into the story that points to Christ. Some of it’s obvious but there is quite a bit that is subtle but only because most people aren’t up on botanical symbolism (Harry’s wand is Holly - hello!!!)

Thanks for sharing your personal experiece. I put it right up there near veilofveronica’s except she indicated that she was in the occult b=not just dabbled a little like yourself but nevertheless both personal experiences.

Could you enlighten me though as to what the point of HP is as you stated above? Apart from the usual love/good triumphs over evil bit I mean.

Also in light of what I bolded above in your post, do you think that Harry Potter (in your view) is appropriate for young children? Also do you subscribe to the commentary you mentioned that claims that if a person is unfamiliar with the gospel they won’t truly understand HP? If so then do you think that HP is appropriate reading for children in their preteens or early teens who may still be struggling to understand their own faith?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If the child knows nothing little about his faith, I would encourage him to read something about the faith before/simultaneously with the book/whatever in question.

I recommend said child read his chemistry textbook as well to see how reality doesn’t play by fantasy’s rules.

Aleister Crowley was not an Ancient Egyptian.

I believe wiki identifies him as a Brit. A very whacky, eccentric Brit.

Let it stand there no proof or justification has been offered for either of the following:

1. That there are “quite a few paganists etc.” in the technical fields
2. That any particular video game has subversive occult content

Neither has he proven the significance of such ‘subversive occult content’ in the face of modern literary theories where author intent is just one of the many things thrown out from consideration.

 

[kinja]

What? Not at all. There is no reason to caution generally against Harry Potter, given that you yourself have conceded – as I have noted – that it comes down to the person involved. If the child knows nothing little about his faith, I would encourage him to read something about the faith before/simultaneously with the book/whatever in question. If he is secure in his faith at a level appropriate for that age, there is no problem. And Harry Potter would never be on my list of questionable books, by the way.

How many children do you know understand their faith at all? Most children just blindly accept church teachings since they are too young to truly comprehend any concept fully.

Given that most children may know little about their faith wouldn’t it make sense for such material to be off limits until they do? What you propose is the same as cautioning against the book. You put a PG advised stamp on it basically or in this case a CG advised (catholic guidance advised) stamp on it. You just reinforced my point thank you.

Magic and fantasy that are on a page or screen are not inherently dangerous.

Depending on the way it is presented: no more so than explicit sex scenes or drug abuse or bloody murder on the screen. It’s age appropriateness to an extent and partly the discretion of a guardian.

And I know none. Why should I value your anecdotal evidence over my own?

I’m not asking you to value mine over yours. Mine shows me that it is more than possibly an influence to young people who do not know or respect their faith.

Really? Where are the records on the exorcisms?

With resepct to this I only have the exorcists’ words’ to take as evidence. They could be lying or crazy. Then again if I provided the records they could have easily been fabricated
by some fandamentalist Christian to descredit the Church

And censorship is a totally inappropriate prong in this approach.

Who says censorship? So you would permit your child to watch porn/dirty magazines?

Not with you there pal.

Aleister Crowley was not an Ancient Egyptian.

Sorry that was a mistype on my part I meant to write "I do not want to stray too much off topic but the Ancient Egyptians **and people **like Aleister Crowley believed in interdimensional travel by spirits not Aliens in the scientific sense of the word but creatures not from this realm. "

And “interdimensional travel” is not occult by the standards of the Church, as I mentioned, any more than dragons or any other nonexistent thing or phenomenon is occult. To quote myself, “Unless you can tell me where the Church states that interdimensional travel and alien visitation are occult, we have a problem.”

I think that I wrongly assumed you had knowledge of the beliefs and practices of occultists like Crowley and Blavatsky so taht you would know that communicating with “alien” entities and opening gateways to the spiritual worlds was a part of their theology. The reductionism “Taking the elements like interdimensional travel etc separately” like that is like taking apart a gun and expecting it to still look like a gun. It is the combination of the symbols, concepts and words/phrases used that indicate their occult genesis.

I don’t want to derail the thread by getting too deeply into that and it would take alot of explaining. Maybe I will start a separate thread concerning this.

You are correct. Could you point out a video game with this in it?

Starcraft (one of my favorites back in 2001)

What? I have not forwarded any general thesis. I am saying it is a game-by-game judgment.

And I agree with you. It is a game by game judgement. Not all fantasy games are EVIL and have designers with evil intentions. We can agree here.

The Church disagrees, and her teaching is good enough for me.

I don’t know that that is true. The church says that parents and guardians have a right to decide what education their children receives (read the popes peace message 2012).

If you have information from the Church that I have not seen then please provide same.

Yes, but in the proper manner: to tell them to notice the occult things, and then to have a conversation between parent and child afterward discussing them and learning more about Catholicism.

I agree. That is an ideal case but it cannot be applied to all cases and circumstances. Hence the reason for the Pope’s desire for families to spend more quality time with their children. If this was already happening then your suggestion would obviously be preferred but the fact remains that it isn’t and while that is so we should not fail to catuion our kids against these things. That’s like allowing your young child to use a kithcen knife without supervision. Of course the kitchen knife has it’s uses but it can lead to harm as well.

1. That any particular video game has subversive occult content

Spawn and Splatterhouse are the more overt one actually. You should play Splatterhouse yourself. Nothing for you to worry about thoiugh since you seem to be strong in your faith.

 

[Baelor]

How many children do you know understand their faith at all? Most children just blindly accept church teachings since they are too young to truly comprehend any concept fully.

I know many children who understand concepts of the faith appropriate to their ages.

Given that most children may know little about their faith wouldn’t it make sense for such material to be off limits until they do?

No, given that they cannot understand it fully, by your own account. If I tell them it is not real, they will get that much. I did when I was that age. If my child does not understand that Barney is fictional, then I have bigger problems than the occult. Same thing if my child (at an older age) does not understand that Harry Potter is not real.

What you propose is the same as cautioning against the book. You put a PG advised stamp on it basically or in this case a CG advised (catholic guidance advised) stamp on it. You just reinforced my point thank you.

No, I am not cautioning against the book, because that is an unqualified statement. I would be cautioning a particular individual against things that may be tempting to them, and this class of media will differ for every person in size and nature. I do not think that anything is inherently problematic for Catholics.

Depending on the way it is presented: no more so than explicit sex scenes or drug abuse or bloody murder on the screen. It’s age appropriateness to an extent and partly the discretion of a guardian.

And those things differ from person to person, and I firmly reject a blanket statement that they are problematic or some such.

I’m not asking you to value mine over yours. Mine shows me that it is more than possibly an influence to young people who do not know or respect their faith.

And mine shows that it is not, if the children are raised with any sense whatsoever, which my future children – should they exist – would be.

With resepct to this I only have the exorcists’ words’ to take as evidence. They could be lying or crazy. Then again if I provided the records they could have easily been fabricated
by some fandamentalist Christian to descredit the Church

Hmm.

Who says censorship? So you would permit your child to watch porn/dirty magazines?

Not with you there pal.

Viewing pornography is a sin. Please point to the specific Church teaching that states that viewing any particular thing other than pornography is a sin. Then we can talk.

I will amend my statement: porn is justifiably censored. Nothing else is.

I think that I wrongly assumed you had knowledge of the beliefs and practices of occultists like Crowley and Blavatsky so taht you would know that communicating with “alien” entities and opening gateways to the spiritual worlds was a part of their theology.

Communicating with aliens is not occult by Church teaching in anything I have found. Point out where communicating with aliens is against Church teaching because it is occult. I care only what you say, not what you meant to say. To refresh your memory, here is your statement:

…starts “looking” glaringly more like a play to the ancient egyptian concept of stargates and interdimensional travel and alien visitation and communication (occult).

That is not occult, period. Opening spiritual worlds is occult. Talking to aliens is not.

The reductionism “Taking the elements like interdimensional travel etc separately” like that is like taking apart a gun and expecting it to still look like a gun. It is the combination of the symbols, concepts and words/phrases used that indicate their occult genesis.

But talking to aliens is not occult. Interdimensional travel is not inherently occult either.

Starcraft (one of my favorites back in 2001)

Explain.

I don’t know that that is true. The church says that parents and guardians have a right to decide what education their children receives (read the popes peace message 2012).

If you have information from the Church that I have not seen then please provide same.

What you just said and what you forwarded earlier are two different things. You said that “we should encourage both,” which is different from saying each parent should exercise his or her judgment appropriately with his or her child. Your preference that caution should generally be exercised is not explicit in Church teaching within the purview of content discussed here.

Spawn and Splatterhouse are the more overt one actually. You should play Splatterhouse yourself. Nothing for you to worry about thoiugh since you seem to be strong in your faith.

How are the representations subversive? They seem rather overt to me, and definitely not encouraging the occult.

 

[kinja]

I know many children who understand concepts of the faith appropriate to their ages.

No, given that they cannot understand it fully, by your own account. If I tell them it is not real, they will get that much. I did when I was that age. If my child does not understand that Barney is fictional, then I have bigger problems than the occult. Same thing if my child (at an older age) does not understand that Harry Potter is not real.

No, I am not cautioning against the book, because that is an unqualified statement. I would be cautioning a particular individual against things that may be tempting to them, and this class of media will differ for every person in size and nature. I do not think that anything is inherently problematic for Catholics.

And those things differ from person to person, and I firmly reject a blanket statement that they are problematic or some such.

And mine shows that it is not, if the children are raised with any sense whatsoever, which my future children – should they exist – would be.

Hmm.

Viewing pornography is a sin. Please point to the specific Church teaching that states that viewing any particular thing other than pornography is a sin. Then we can talk.

I will amend my statement: porn is justifiably censored. Nothing else is.

Communicating with aliens is not occult by Church teaching in anything I have found. Point out where communicating with aliens is against Church teaching because it is occult. I care only what you say, not what you meant to say. To refresh your memory, here is your statement:

That is not occult, period. Opening spiritual worlds is occult. Talking to aliens is not.

But talking to aliens is not occult. Interdimensional travel is not inherently occult either.

Explain.

What you just said and what you forwarded earlier are two different things. You said that “we should encourage both,” which is different from saying each parent should exercise his or her judgment appropriately with his or her child. Your preference that caution should generally be exercised is not explicit in Church teaching within the purview of content discussed here.

How are the representations subversive? They seem rather overt to me, and definitely not encouraging the occult.

I realise that we are going in circles here. I think it is because we both have different understandings of what constitutes the occult. I will only respond to the last statement as I am tired of repeating myself:

The display of occult power is overt. But there is a subversive aspect to the concept of the game which indicates that making a deal with an evil spirit can give you superhuman powers and the ability to pull off dazzling looking fighting moves.

I’ve heard and read on messageboards how cool people (young and old) think Rick looks and moves in the game. Some music bands have popularized the concept of using demonic power, channelling and communicating with demonic spirits. So it’s no surprise when I hear young people saying these things and speak openly to young teachers about
there occult activities in and out of the class room.

 

[kinja]

I wonder sometimes where some people commenting here are living that they seem to think that Satan is some weak and docile force who is not actively using his agents in the media just as God is using His. No he is afraid of media apparently yes? They try to explain everything away as if to say that the devil is not interested in getting young people into the occult because his only agenda is to tempt us to get into “other” sinful behaviour.

They want empiracle evidence that there is an occult influence in media but on the other hand they ask for no empiracle evidence to prove the existence of god, the true intentions of fantasy game designers or that HP books do not have real magic rituals in them for example.

If anyone was looking for a reason not to be involved in fantasy they found it on this thread as the people who love it so much seem to be subverted themselves into believing that there is no possibility that some of this material could be unhealthy.

Some of you act as new age apologists really with this “nothing is evil or good in the media it is how you interpret it” attitude.

 

[Baelor]

I think it is because we both have different understandings of what constitutes the occult.

I do not think so at all. I think that your understanding of the occult is your own and no one else’s, hence your confusion. Here is what the occult means: “supernatural, mystical, or magical beliefs, practices, or phenomena.” Aliens do not fit into any of those categories.

The display of occult power is overt. But there is a subversive aspect to the concept of the game which indicates that making a deal with an evil spirit can give you superhuman powers and the ability to pull off dazzling looking fighting moves.

There we go. Finally, something on which to nibble, however meagre it may be. In this case, I would simply explain to my child that the game is fantasy, not reality. Problem solved.

I wonder sometimes where some people commenting here are living that they seem to think that Satan is some weak and docile force who is not actively using his agents in the media just as God is using His.

I am not saying that he does not. I am simply not seeing shadows where there are none.

They want empiracle evidence that there is an occult influence in media but on the other hand they ask for no empiracle evidence to prove the existence of god

What? Those two things are in no way the same at all. One is an empirical issue, one is a claim that is a fusion of fact and faith. God cannot be empirically proven because he transcends this existence. A game creator’s motives do not.

If anyone was looking for a reason not to be involved in fantasy they found it on this thread as the people who love it so much seem to be subverted themselves into believing that there is no possibility that some of this material could be unhealthy.

What on earth are you saying? That fantasy can be unhealthy? I do not think anyone is disputing that, not even Lost Wanderer. In the hands of the imbecilic or badly-catechized, of course it can be unhealthy. But it is not something that need be avoided inherently. Absolutely any medium, even if it is overtly religious, can be misused in the hands of the wrong person.

Some of you act as new age apologists really with this “nothing is evil or good in the media it is how you interpret it” attitude.

This statement is, needless to say, factually inaccurate.

 

[kinja]

Here’s the difference. I’ve got proof. I’ve got education. What paranoids like you have usually winds down in the bowels of superstition.

I’ve frankly lost count of how many times I’ve presented fact upon fact on how the entire human populations rips any intended message to shreds once it’s served on the plate of popular fiction. In the end all you do is throw temper tantrums, shake your head, and keep saying “Naw, naw, naw!”

You’re missing something.

holds mirror to your face

There that’s better.

While unintelligent and irrelevant would best describe the quoted rant.

Yes, the same way it’s difficult to have a confidence in an objective opinion from a biologist on matters of evolution, given the harsh facts and logic especially.

Are you done wasting people’s time now or you do want this thread revamped again?

Before you get ahead of yourself even further with your empty boasts, here is a reality check.

You are still in school aren’t you(and if not you sure act like it).
You most likely do not have a post graduate degree in anything.
If you do have a 1st degree you would know that a degree in the Social or Natural Sciences teaches you nothing much except how to research and learn
If you think you know anything now (as an undergrad student) … you ain’t seen nothing yet.
You have not provided any FACTS to support your claims that - your lifelong dream and current career path cannot be harmful to anyone but is in fact only full of good things for escapists.
All you have provided are the theories put forward by a select few men who themselves can provide no substantial and reliable empirical evidence to support their positions any more than those legendary luminaries (reknown philosophers) whose views oppose theirs (Aristotle etc.)

You shoot down and mock the views of people (and the people themselves) who put your position in the shade in favour of the ones that vilify you and your subjective opinion.
I myself am educated in a variety of fields at a post graduate level but unlike you I don’t see that as consequential to this particular discussion- unless one of us has a degree in occult studies or game design/development or done a paper on how these concepts are developed in games. Neither of us has this I am sure but I realise that my familiarity with occult concepts and practices far outweighs your own.

Psychology is a field still full of doubt and speculation so please don’t try to impress anyone here with any education of that sort that you may have or try to justify your position again from that standpoint without the FACTS as you like to put it. Interesting how just a few decades ago homosexuality was thought to be a mental illness (so much for that theory and so many others).

The result is a totally arrogant, subjective view complete with put downs and name calling to anyone who threatens the image of your own little world.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You are still in school aren’t you(and if not you sure act like it).

NO! I graduated months ago! Who’s acting like they know somebody now?

You most likely do not have a post graduate degree in anything.

English Language and Literature

If you do have a 1st degree you would know that a degree in the Social or Natural Sciences teaches you nothing much except how to research and learn

Uh, not quite. One, my course was neither Social or Natural. It was Humanities. Two, you can’t research and learn without accepting what’s already established. It’s one reason why we’re still exploring evolution whilst Creationism and another nonsense are laughed out the door.

If you think you know anything now (as an undergrad student) … you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Well seeing as how I’m NOT an undergrad, this comment is automatically pointless.

You have not provided any FACTS to support your claims that - your lifelong dream and current career path cannot be harmful to anyone but is in fact only full of good things for escapists.

Oh uh, yes I have. Look at Shakespeare. Look at Dante. Look at Tolkien. Oh wait, I forgot you’d rather character assassinate them than accept the fact that how people accepted and integrated their literary legacy goes beyond their control.

If someone saw my two female characters and interpreted their relationship is a subtle homosexual one, I can’t change that person’s opinion.

You know it’s funny since while I’m graduated and working, I still drop by the FB group of my college’s little literature club (of which I was one of the first members since its revival). One of the newer ones posted something that was a little profane so I can’t post it here but made a lot of sense and went like this (you can all look it up).

*What the author meant:
The curtains were blue.

What your teacher thinks:
The curtains represent his immense depression and his lack of will to carry on.

What the author mean:
The curtains were friggin’ blue.*

Once your work leaves your hands and into the public, the only thing that’s yours are the legal rights to it. Everything else is gone.

All you have provided are the theories put forward by a select few men who themselves can provide no substantial and reliable empirical evidence to support their positions any more than those legendary luminaries (reknown philosophers) whose views oppose theirs (Aristotle etc.)

Theories that are the latest and are becoming increasingly accepted. There’s a reason why ‘post’ exists in post-modernism. It’s the same reason why people opted for Darwinian evolution when it came out, kicked Creationism where it hurts, and never came back. A theory is more than the imperfect guess you’re making them out to be. They still contain a lot facts (facts which you yourself haven’t even addressed outside ‘oh it’s just a theory’).

You shoot down and mock the views of people (and the people themselves) who put your position in the shade in favour of the ones that vilify you and your subjective opinion.

Yeah while you paint those who disagree with you as somehow not having some special sight and that we’re drenched and desensitized in ‘our own little fantasy world’.

So is your real name Pot too? I’ve got a guy named Kettle who likes to meet ya.

I myself am educated in a variety of fields at a post graduate level but unlike you I don’t see that as consequential to this particular discussion- unless one of us has a degree in occult studies or game design/development or done a paper on how these concepts are developed in games. Neither of us has this I am sure but I realise that my familiarity with occult concepts and practices far outweighs your own.

My group thesis was about indigenous folklore. I studied under two professors, both experts of mythology. I’ve written papers and done brief reports on how some Filipino folk heroes make for interesting fantasy archetypes.

Do I have to give you my list of subjects too?

Oh and guess what? Look at what my college literature club just posted recently.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=213&pictureid=11588

I can’t say you can persist in your sad attempt at making expertise irrelevant without making yourself look like a fool.

I don’t know what you took in college but it’s quite clear that it has no application here. Instead of telling me to eat humble pie, why don’t you eat it yourself and face the fact that I’m more knowledgeable about this subject than you.

Psychology is a field still full of doubt and speculation so please don’t try to impress anyone here with any education of that sort that you may have or try to justify your position again from that standpoint without the FACTS as you like to put it. Interesting how just a few decades ago homosexuality was thought to be a mental illness (so much for that theory and so many others).

I didn’t take psychology. Seeing as how your rant is based on the laughable assumption that I was still in school, I’m just going to post this and say that this is what I’ll be referencing the next time you tell me I make assumptions about you.

Oh and FYI? Doubt and speculation actually add to the facts in my field. When people become so unsure and are presented with the so many whacked out ways literature is interpreted, it just makes more sense that in the end, people interpret things on their own. They digest symbols, imagery, and all that hoohah and shred author intent in the process.