My neice is playing online games with occult themes?

[kinja]

NO! I graduated months ago! Who’s acting like they know somebody now?

Oh not too long ago I see. OK that explains your enthusiasm.

English Language and Literature

That also would explain your opinions on fantasy video games, the range of effects of the media on the human mind and natural sciences in general.

One, my course was neither Social or Natural. It was Humanities. Two, you can’t research and learn without accepting what’s already established. It’s one reason why we’re still exploring evolution whilst Creationism and another nonsense are laughed out the door.

You clearly do not understand evolution in it’s entirity or you are speaking about a particular “kind” of evolution (and there are several).

If someone saw my two female characters and interpreted their relationship is a subtle homosexual one, I can’t change that person’s opinion.

Once your work leaves your hands and into the public, the only thing that’s yours are the legal rights to it. Everything else is gone.

This arguement of yours is a common cop out to absolve every artist form personal responsibility so that they can put whatever they want out there without worrying about the consequenses. We are called to exercise discretion as Catholics. We are supposed to put on Christ not put on the latest fashion that the world has adopted because it is “accepted”.

Theories that are the latest and are becoming increasingly accepted. There’s a reason why ‘post’ exists in post-modernism. It’s the same reason why people opted for Darwinian evolution when it came out, kicked Creationism where it hurts, and never came back. A theory is more than the imperfect guess you’re making them out to be. They still contain a lot facts (facts which you yourself haven’t even addressed outside ‘oh it’s just a theory’).

Quite a few theories put forward by leading psychologists can’t be easily reconcilled with Catholic teaching. Liberalism is not just a problem outside of the church. It’s very much alive inside too as you yourself are demonstrating. I don’t want to get into a natural scientific discourse with you because we will not be equally matched but please educate yourself properly on evolution and be clear on what type you are referring to before you make such comments.

Yeah while you paint those who disagree with you as somehow not having some special sight and that we’re drenched and desensitized in ‘our own little fantasy world’.

It doesn’t take special sight to see what I and millions of other people online and offline have been talking and about for years now. Being desentisized to something, given enough exposure, is not uncommon. But there comes a time when we have to wake up.

My group thesis was about indigenous folklore. I’ve written papers and done brief reports on how some Filipino folk heroes make for interesting fantasy archetypes.

That’s great. You should do some research into Norse, Egyptian and Celtic esoterica as well.

Do I have to give you my list of subjects too?

No thanks you’re in the Humanities and you haven’t studied the occult. That’s all I need to know.

I can’t say you can persist in your sad attempt at making expertise irrelevant without making yourself look like a fool.

Clearly you define expertise as people who are popular in some circles who make alot of assumptions and opinions which are favourable to the likes of yourself.

I don’t know what you took in college but it’s quite clear that it has no application here. Instead of telling me to eat humble pie, why don’t you eat it yourself and face the fact that I’m more knowledgeable about this subject than you.

Actually you proved that you are not nearly knowledgable enough to speak with as much authority as you try to do here on this topic. Degrees in literature and english? We are talking about the influence of occult games and you think a degree in literature and some papaers on indegenous cultures somehow has weight over physics, computer science and IT? I am and have been an avid gamer (PC and console) for years and I am a programmer. I have programmed 2D games in the past as a hobby. I’ve been reading pretty widely about the more popular occult practices and rituals in Europe, India and Africa. That said I would say that I’m not sure your expertise is as applicable in this particular thread as you are making it out to be friend.

I didn’t take psychology. Seeing as how your rant is based on the laughable assumption that I was still in school.

So you can’t even talk from an informed pseudo scientific position? Leaving school a few months ago is not a far cry from still being there mentally.

I’m just going to post this and say that this is what I’ll be referencing the next time you tell me I make assumptions about you.

That’s just immature and bad minded. By all means you shouldn’t carry around a chip on your shoulder for me you’ll only be hurting yourself. Seriously.

Children think differently

The point is made best by Dr. Jane Healy in describing the development of the human mind and children in particular. They all do think similarly according to the biology of brain development. If you present an image, symbol or word in one context for years how do you think it will be interpreted?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You clearly do not understand evolution in it’s entirity or you are speaking about a particular “kind” of evolution (and there are several).

It doesn’t matter which type. What matters is that theory of God magically creating the world in six days isn’t one of them anymore. The same goes for so-called inherent values and absolutes when interpreting symbols

This arguement of yours is a common cop out to absolve every artist form personal responsibility so that they can put whatever they want out there without worrying about the consequenses. We are called to exercise discretion as Catholics. We are supposed to put on Christ not put on the latest fashion that the world has adopted because it is “accepted”.

Artists are artist. If writers were supposed to be moral and religious teachers, they might as well be priests or religious.

But we’re not. We write for the sake of expression or simply for the sake of writing itself. Why do you think Lewis sucks when compared to Tolkien? Anyone who does so much as give a brief reading of both will see that the former cares too much about being preachy, whilst the latter simply expresses himself.

Quite a few theories put forward by leading psychologists can’t be easily reconcilled with Catholic teaching.

Correction: Your view of Catholic teaching. I’ve seen nothing in Church teaching to support the so-called inherent values or absolutes when it comes to analyzing symbols.

It doesn’t take special sight to see what I and millions of other people online and offline have been talking and about for years now.

Millions? I doubt that. Don’t flatter yourself. People are more concerned about how to keep making a buck everyday than so-called ‘occult’ symbolism in fantasy games.

Being desentisized to something, given enough exposure, is not uncommon. But there comes a time when we have to wake up.

Thanks for proving your condescending and hypocritical attitude.

That’s great. You should do some research into Norse, Egyptian and Celtic esoterica as well.

I have. I took a comprehensive Mythology class back in college.

No thanks you’re in the Humanities and you haven’t studied the occult. That’s all I need to know.

Yet you include the realm of mythology in the realm of occult. Are you done shooting yourself in the foot now?

Clearly you define expertise as people who are popular in some circles who make alot of assumptions and opinions which are favourable to the likes of yourself.

holds up mirror to your face

Hey there Pot, this is the friend Kettle I was talking about.

Degrees in literature and english? We are talking about the influence of occult games and you think a degree in literature and some papaers on indegenous cultures somehow has weight over physics, computer science and IT?

LOL!!! IT!? Computer science? Physics? What does a bunch of 0s and 1s got to do with your nonsensical talk about symbolism? FYI, that is fine proof that you’re just blowing smoke. I care not for software coding or C++. We’re talking about the presence of mythology and folklore in fantasy. If anything you’re the one trying to act like a tough expert on something you’re not. Widely read? Sorry but armchair < graduate.

So you can’t even talk from an informed pseudo scientific position? Leaving school a few months ago is not a far cry from still being there mentally.

Why would I talk from a view I didn’t study for? But then again, seeing as how you’re trying to stretch your field of gigabytes and algorithms into the field of mythology and folklore, I think it’s clear

That’s just immature and bad minded. By all means you shouldn’t carry around a chip on your shoulder for me you’ll only be hurting yourself. Seriously.

LOL! You talk of accountability for artists yet don’t like being held accountable yourself. Terrific. You obviously want this thread revamped. Again.

The point is made best by Dr. Jane Healy in describing the development of the human mind and children in particular. They all do think similarly according to the biology of brain development. If you present an image, symbol or word in one context for years how do you think it will be interpreted?

I didn’t even say that last quote you made. Are you smoking something? Look, regardless it’s clear that even children can be evidence when they interpret things differently from other children. There’s the classic examples of some kids being scared of clowns while others are not. I’ve personally had babies cry at the sight of my glasses while others laugh and snatch them off my face. It doesn’t matter if you see a symbol in a certain context for years. That can change (especially, in the case of children, when you decide to finally grow up).

 

[PrayerShark]

Kinja, I must ask in earnest what qualifications beyond programming do you hold to make you THE universal authority on the occult?

Reading your comments, you sound like an overstuffed university “graduate” with too much testosterone, who’s just discovered he has a penis and needs to ejaculate his juvenile opinions on everyone.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Kinja, I must ask in earnest what qualifications beyond programming do you hold to make you THE universal authority on the occult?

Reading your comments, you sound like an overstuffed university “graduate” with too much testosterone, who’s just discovered he has a penis and needs to ejaculate his juvenile opinions on everyone.

If anything, the only thing computer programming does for games is the actual mechanics of the gameplay. It’s the things that let your characters jump across the screen. It’s the thing that’s calculating the numbers I see flying up over a monster’s head once I hit it (or flying over my head because I’m about to get my rear end handed to me).

It’s not the department where people design the clothes of the characters or the actual lore of the in-game universe. The only time creative meets with the math/computer geeks is when creative wants the geeks to translate their concept into gameplay formula. Yoshitaka Amano, one of Square-Enix’s lead artists works in the field of fine arts. He’s an art genius, not a computer one.

 

[kinja]

It doesn’t matter which type. What matters is that theory of God magically creating the world in six days isn’t one of them anymore. The same goes for so-called inherent values and absolutes when interpreting symbols

That just shows that you do not understand fully what you are talking about. It does matter which type. There are both old earth creationists and young earth creationists (creation is 6 days) and many other types. The Church sees both evolution and creationism as both valid “beliefs”.

Now this talk about inherent values - you are being a stranger to the truth. I did say that context was important and that symbols could not be taken at face value without it.

-]Why do you think Lewis sucks when compared to Tolkien?/-]

That is your opinion not a fact.

Correction: Your view of Catholic teaching. I’ve seen nothing in Church teaching to support the so-called inherent values or absolutes when it comes to analyzing symbols.

Again you are being dishonest or are functionally illiterate. I did not say anywhere in this thread that symbols have inherent meanings. I spoke to context as being important.

People are more concerned about how to keep making a buck everyday than so-called ‘occult’ symbolism in fantasy games.

What is your point? People generally are also more concerned with making money than fantasy but that does not mean that millions of people don’t indulge in fantasy in their spare time as many also post online on forums and social media websites about the prevalence they see of occult concepts in the media.

Thanks for proving your condescending and hypocritical attitude.

To quote yourself - I can’t be held responsible for how people interpret what I write. I specifically said “we need to wake up” not “you”. We is a pronoun which refers to more than one person and includes the person using the word - the last time I checked anyway. But you have the english degree so you can let me know if things have changed.

I have. I took a comprehensive Mythology class back in college.

OK that’s great and what did you learn from it that is of value in contributing to the OP?

Yet you include the realm of mythology in the realm of occult. Are you done shooting yourself in the foot now?

Many occult practices borrow heavily from mythology. But given your perspective I don’t think you are aware of this even after taking a “comprehensive” course in mythology. I think it is you who is displaying your ignorance here not I hence the hole in your own foot.

LOL!!! IT!? Computer science? Physics? What does a bunch of 0s and 1s got to do with your nonsensical talk about symbolism? FYI, that is fine proof that you’re just blowing smoke. I care not for software coding or C++. We’re talking about the presence of mythology and folklore in fantasy. If anything you’re the one trying to act like a tough expert on something you’re not. Widely read? Sorry but armchair < graduate.

Are you 5 or something? Who programs in 0’s and 1’s anyway? I think you take the matrix waaay too seriously. I was merely responding to your post that you did not know what courses I took in college. This is why I was trying to steer clear of this talk of degrees and accolades that you insist on bringing up. It shows how shallow you are that you would think a post graduate degree in Literature means anything in discussing the occult in gaming. Have you ever read any occult literature? Clearly not.

We are talking about the presence of occult in gaming. Not fantasy and fantasy magic.

I told you that accolades really have no place in this discussion unless they are in the subject of occult sciences or things related to the OP which is not the case with either of us.

Apart from game design and being an avid gamer like some game designers, some designers have studied aspects of the occult in making their games (so have I). Designers have visual arts backgrounds and so have I. From what experience are you drawing in your contribution to the OP besides a degree in english and literature? Have you done any design work for a video game?

Why would I talk from a view I didn’t study for? But then again, seeing as how you’re trying to stretch your field of gigabytes and algorithms into the field of mythology and folklore, I think it’s clear.

You have been doing just that. I’m speaking about the occult not just mythology.

LOL! You talk of accountability for artists yet don’t like being held accountable yourself. Terrific. You obviously want this thread revamped. Again.

I think it is just that each person including myself be held to account. I may be wrong but I don’t know that anyone/anything here archives the posts of other people to use them later except the CAF database maybe.

I didn’t even say that last quote you made.

Yes you are correct. My apologies for the mix up.

It doesn’t matter if you see a symbol in a certain context for years. That can change (especially, in the case of children, when you decide to finally grow up).

It is not that simple. That is why some people spend most of their adult lives trying to get over childhood fears of otherwise insignificant things. Association is a reality of the human mind and how we learn about and function in the world in which we live. It’s not always that easily reversible.

 

[kinja]

Kinja, I must ask in earnest what qualifications beyond programming do you hold to make you THE universal authority on the occult?

I never claimed to be the authority let alone universal one on the occult or anything else. I think this is irregular as no one else on this thread has presented any “qualifications” which indicated working knowledge of the OP. In high school I did Art, Maths, Physics and Computer Studies in form 6 (I studied under a British education system - GCE). College I did Physics, and a major in computer science. My postgraduate degree was an MSc in information systems management. I have other certifications in Project Managment and others. This is why until provoked by LW I did not list my qualifications as I don’t see these or his as relevant to the OP. What it shows is that I have more in common with those involved in the development of the said occult games that he seems to have.

Reading your comments, you sound like an overstuffed university “graduate” with too much testosterone, who’s just discovered he has a penis and needs to ejaculate his juvenile opinions on everyone.

Do I? Do I really sound like this:

Thank you for being a fine example of how much intellectual respect should be given to the religious anti-Fantasy crowd.

Sadly, unlike my parents, a lot of parents these days are apparently too stupid to pay attention to something as noticeable as:

The same Amorth who allegedly claimed that the devil has infiltrated the Vatican. Take him with a grain of salt. Even veteran exorcists have a nasty tendency to see the devil in everything. In fact, I would theorize that them spending too much in the field actually makes them increasingly susceptible to such paranoia.

You do realize that once you see that difference, to go from one to the other would mean that you’re:

a) Stupid
b) Crazy
c) Stupid and Crazy
d) Stupid, Crazy, and need to take a science class

Here’s the difference. I’ve got proof. I’ve got education. What paranoids like you have usually winds down in the bowels of superstition.

You’re missing something.

holds mirror to your face

There that’s better.

Are you done wasting people’s time now or you do want this thread revamped again?

I take it you are either have interests in the humanities or fantasy unless you are just a fanboy for LW? I didn’t see you jump in 200 posts ago when LW started his attack on what he deemed quite falsely: the “anti-fantasy league”. Or is it just a coincidence that you are making posts directed at me and not him?

 

[kinja]

To the OP:

Be mindful that many games contain themes and concepts which are not consistent with Catholic doctrine and that parental guidance includes parental supervision (not just telling what is healthy or not but shwoing them).

The Pope made it clear in his peace message this year that with repesct to mass media:

education takes place through communication, which influences, for better or worse, the formation of the person.

And with respect to parenting:

children are deprived of “one of the most precious of treasures: the presence of their parents”
…
To parents “Be present and spend time with families
Encourage by example to put hope in God”

If you are concerned that your neice is doing something unhealthy spend time with her to learn more about what she is doing before you decide if the game is dangerous or has occult themes in it and let her parents know your concern if this is not possible. Some games do have occult themes but some may use symbols or words which may be/may have been used in the occult by occultists. Be vigilant but not paranoid or superstitious as some of the posters are rightly saying.

Be familiar with the churches teachings on these matters and most importantly put on Christ and pray unceasingly.

God bless.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The Church sees both evolution and creationism as both valid “beliefs”.

Uh no. The Church only declares that evolution is not incompatible with the Faith. Catholics are within their right to believe whatever theory they want. That doesn’t however mean the scientific community is about reconsider the world magically being created in six days as a valid explanation. That ship has sunk, courtesy of Darwin.

Now this talk about inherent values - you are being a stranger to the truth. I did say that context was important and that symbols could not be taken at face value without it.

Context isn’t the only determining factor either. Context is in of itself subject to interpretation and re-interpretation.

That is your opinion not a fact.

Ask any literary critic and you’ll find that preachy writing isn’t generally frowned upon. Even if you did rule it out as an opinion, it’s not just mine. Regardless, we had never been called to be moral teachers. That’d be the scholars and the theologians at the Vatican. The Pope commissioned Michaelangelo to paint him something, not give his opinion on Church matters.

Again you are being dishonest or are functionally illiterate. I did not say anywhere in this thread that symbols have inherent meanings. I spoke to context as being important.

Which is still irrelevant because even context can be changed or understood differently.

What is your point? People generally are also more concerned with making money than fantasy but that does not mean that millions of people don’t indulge in fantasy in their spare time as many also post online on forums and social media websites about the prevalence they see of occult concepts in the media.

See you’re comparing apples and oranges. You think your little conspiracy theorist fan club has that many members? I beg to differ. Even the Vatican has better things to do than trying to see the devil in everything and chasing signs.

To quote yourself - I can’t be held responsible for how people interpret what I write. I specifically said “we need to wake up” not “you”. We is a pronoun which refers to more than one person and includes the person using the word - the last time I checked anyway. But you have the english degree so you can let me know if things have changed.

LOL! Thanks but to quote you, we have to put things in context. However, this is not the sort of fictionalized context which allows reinterpretation.

In such cases, when I write something fictional, I leave it at that. I don’t care how bizarre people interpret it.

You on the other hand are twisting my words. You’re not writing fiction, hence it does not count. It’s quite easy to see that you are indeed being hypocritical by saying writers should be held accountable for obscure works of literary art yet you don’t like to be held accountable for a non-literary piece (in this case, your forum posts).

OK that’s great and what did you learn from it that is of value in contributing to the OP?

That symbols mean nothing other than what you read into them. Seeing a bunch of runes in a circle carries different connotations for many subcultures.

Many occult practices borrow heavily from mythology.

Fantasy draws from mythology. You are a nut obsessed with finding the ‘occult’ by using that same mythology to form dubious connections. That much is clear from your words. It’s also clear that Baelor was right. You have your own ‘little world’ definition of occult (one that’s even apart from Church teaching I’d wager). Otherwise, you’d realize how stupid you’re looking to a lot of people reading this thread when you say computer science is more of an appropriate field than mythology.

Oh and FYI? My class covered a good deal from Egyptian to Japanese mythology.

This is why I was trying to steer clear of this talk of degrees and accolades that you insist on bringing up. It shows how shallow you are that you would think a post graduate degree in Literature means anything in discussing the occult in gaming. Have you ever read any occult literature? Clearly not.

You yourself admit that mythology has strong ties to the occult. Not to mention, you constantly sing about how pagan groups and occultists use the same symbols found in both fantasy and mythology.

However, my expertise of analyzing myths and their influence on literature/fiction is clearly more relevant than the mind-numbing calculus algorithms that caused me to shift from CS to Humanities. (Surprise! I’m also a former CS student.)

We are talking about the presence of occult in gaming. Not fantasy and fantasy magic.

LOL! Yet this thread has already discussed things like the pentagram and magic has been the concern of the OP. Both of which are common features in fantasy magic and fantasy in general.

Sounds like somebody’s getting desperaaaate.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

From what experience are you drawing in your contribution to the OP besides a degree in english and literature? Have you done any design work for a video game?

I’m known among my professors for performing the analysis of comparative mythology on fantasy role-playing games. There are others much like yourself who have also proposed that the presence of figures like Thor and Tyr in things like DnD is proof that such games are a form of devil worship. All in all, it’s quite clear than an expert on myth is always needed when discussing the more literary points of fantasy games.

Oh yes and I’ve been consulted a few times by some friends who were designing home-made RPGs. What can I say? I have a thing for conceptualizing magic systems.

You have been doing just that. I’m speaking about the occult not just mythology.

LOL! Sorry but psychology isn’t the only field that has a right to speak on symbolism. Heck, analyzing the mythological symbols rampant in fantasy games like Wizard101 actually puts it closer to my field than psychology. Stop trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes.

I think it is just that each person including myself be held to account. I may be wrong but I don’t know that anyone/anything here archives the posts of other people to use them later except the CAF database maybe.

No need to flatter yourself. I don’t need to archive. I don’t even need to link. Just the memory alone is sufficient to say that you need to stare at a mirror more often when you’re posting.

It is not that simple. That is why some people spend most of their adult lives trying to get over childhood fears of otherwise insignificant things. Association is a reality of the human mind and how we learn about and function in the world in which we live. It’s not always that easily reversible.

Sounds like you’re just projecting yourself here. Back then I was scared of the dark. Now I actually wish to have my own room and start getting grouchy when people produce any form of luminescence while I’m sleeping. (The sun itself has been subject to my growling at some point.) You read about the success stories of many well-off business people, they’ll tell you a similar experience.

 

[PrayerShark]

kinja:

I never claimed to be the authority let alone universal one on the occult or anything else. I think this is irregular as no one else on this thread has presented any “qualifications” which indicated working knowledge of the OP. In high school I did Art, Maths, Physics and Computer Studies in form 6 (I studied under a British education system - GCE). College I did Physics, and a major in computer science. My postgraduate degree was an MSc in information systems management. I have other certifications in Project Managment and others. This is why until provoked by LW I did not list my qualifications as I don’t see these or his as relevant to the OP. What it shows is that I have more in common with those involved in the development of the said occult games that he seems to have.

So your position in this debate has greater merit because you have experience in developing allegedly ‘occult games’, having worked in an industry that wishes to propagate a hidden nefarious agenda within interactive multimedia?

kinja:

I take it you are either have interests in the humanities or fantasy unless you are just a fanboy for LW?

Sorry my friend, but science and engineering are my realms of conquest. But I do love the humanities and literature as well. It would be a stale and boring world if we didn’t have art to entertain and challenge us.

kinja:

I didn’t see you jump in 200 posts ago when LW started his attack on what he deemed quite falsely: the “anti-fantasy league”. Or is it just a coincidence that you are making posts directed at me and not him?

This simple matter is that I have a life and cannot be bothered to spend my leisure time reading back through your numerous posts of odious rhetoric.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

This is why until provoked by LW I did not list my qualifications as I don’t see these or his as relevant to the OP. What it shows is that I have more in common with those involved in the development of the said occult games that he seems to have.

LOL!! Right, as if Ifrit and Shiva were figures that just happen to pop up while the computer geeks were struggling with coding.

FYI, I work with people who struggle to create the very literature that games like DnD drew inspiration from. As a matter of fact, that actually puts the likes of me higher up in this discussion. Without fantasy, computer geeks and the gaming industry would probably just be busy making Space Invader and Star Wars knock-offs.