My neice is playing online games with occult themes?

[Lost_Wanderer]

I know no such thing. So you think you can read my mind now? Who are we playing today Professor Xavier or Illusionist Chris Angel? One may do well to come out of one’s own little fantasy world before one posts.

Do you even read your own words. I don’t need to pretend to call something a duck when I see one.

People like Lost Wanderer make the whole thing worst because instead of saying that there are alot of good themes in fantasy and it can be used for good as well as evil however some authors and designers (game) may possibly have their own occult religious intents when they create the material: No, he and others choose, again, to explain it away and dismiss any possibility that someone can use the media to try to “sell” their occult religion.

That’s the sort of “over caution” that Zhane is warning about. Once you start speculating, you’re already telling people to be overly cautious. Hence, you’re asking for the sake of being paranoid. The fact that you go further and start condemning the likes of Harry Potter just proves it.

Honestly, I laughed all the way when reading your post. It’s a classic example of a struggling person in denial. If you’re gonna compare me with someone right now, try the Joker or Hazama from BlazBlue.

 

[Lokabrenna]

People like Lost Wanderer make the whole thing worst because instead of saying that there are alot of good themes in fantasy and it can be used for good as well as evil however some authors and designers (game) may possibly have their own occult religious intents when they create the material: No, he and others choose, again, to explain it away and dismiss any possibility that someone can use the media to try to “sell” their occult religion.

OMGs! I’m in the wrong profession! I need to go into the entertainment industry to dupe thousands of young people into following my religion!

Okay, seriously now, I know a few writers who are open about being members of an “occult” religion (like Wicca, or another Pagan tradition, although they might not use the term “occult” to describe themselves) and game designers aren’t typically open about their beliefs, but I’m going to take a guess and say that the majority of Japanese game designers (where most of my games come from) are Buddhist, or perhaps straight up Atheist, a few are probably Christian, or adherents of Shinto. In the West, I’m willing to bet most game designers are Christians of some flavour.

Oh, I know! Maybe they all have occultists on staff as consultants! Man, that would be an awesome job!

Or…maybe they just want to tell a good story?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Or…maybe they just want to tell a good story?

Or paint a nice picture. I find for one really love the sight of an ornate pentagram underneath a mage’s feet while they’re in the middle of casting a very large boom spell.

 

[kinja]

Do you even read your own words. I don’t need to pretend to call something a duck when I see one.

That’s the sort of “over caution” that Zhane is warning about. Once you start speculating, you’re already telling people to be overly cautious. Hence, you’re asking for the sake of being paranoid. The fact that you go further and start condemning the likes of Harry Potter just proves it.

Honestly, I laughed all the way when reading your post. It’s a classic example of a struggling person in denial. If you’re gonna compare me with someone right now, try the Joker or Hazama from BlazBlue.

Your eyes obviously deceive you. I think you would probably mistake a napkin for a duck. Are you still in high school or something? You sound so puffed up with the little knowledge you have outside of fantasy.

I don’t know you that’s why I ask and you don’t know me so you can drop the tactics to distract from your own obvious bias to a particular view of all fantasy artists. I am willing to entertain the possibility of occult concepts in video games and film being either for aesthetic OR more deceptive/maleolent means while YOU try to deny the possibility of the latter in favour of the former.

If you are not familiar with occult concepts then learn about them before you try to defend your point Not too long ago you didn’t seem to even know what the freemason square and compass was. Yet you want to speak at length about an area you seem to have little knowledge about outside of the - again - fantasy.

 

[Baelor]

I am willing to entertain the possibility of occult concepts in video games and film being either for aesthetic OR more deceptive/maleolent means while YOU try to deny the possibility of the latter in favour of the former.

I agree with you, actually. For example, Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy, which is unquestionably anti-religion. But the video games I tend to play (Mario, Zelda, etc.) are not controversial in that regard. Do you have any examples of the “deceptive/malevolent” presence of occult themes in video games?

 

[Tenofovir]

I agree with you, actually. For example, Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy, which is unquestionably anti-religion. But the video games I tend to play (Mario, Zelda, etc.) are not controversial in that regard. Do you have any examples of the “deceptive/malevolent” presence of occult themes in video games?

I think the issue can be sub-divided thus:

1. There are occult influences in media which could lead youngsters into occult practices which can conjure up genuine demons. Youngsters either knowingly or unknowingly cast spells or worship demons (demons from hell that is, i.e. Lucifer’s minions). They could even join a Satanist cult, etc.
2. There are occult (and other negative influences) which could lead youngsters into blasphemy and heresy but not necessarily lead them to get involved with the occult itself - eg His Dark Materials.
3. There are occult (and other negative influences) which could lead youngsters to learn bad habits. For example some media may present sexual promiscuity in a good light or promote moral relativism or nihilism or hedonism or sexual perversion, without any ideological agenda such as in 2 above.
4. There are occult (and other negative influences) which could lead youngsters into spending too much time and/or money on them. The influence becomes an obsession and the person idolizes the work - for example spends money set aside for clothes or textbooks for Collector’s Edition Blurays/DVDs, CDs, figures, books, and other merchandise. Think of the otaku phenomenon here, of someone who will eat noodles and injure their body in order to save up for some collectible 1:1 figure costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars. At the same time, everything else, family, church, work, education, friendships, commitments of various types etc are put on lower priority or even forgotten.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I don’t know you that’s why I ask and you don’t know me so you can drop the tactics to distract from your own obvious bias to a particular view of all fantasy artists.

I don’t need to be your best friend (perish the thought actually) to say your views on the matter are ultimately recycled versions of your past ones. And so that people will know, you are on the Anti-Fantasy League camp. Nice how you keep parroting the whiny “You-Don’t-Know-Meh!” card when frankly, I don’t even care to know about you. It’s enough to know your views on the subject to say you’re in no position to talk about it.

I am willing to entertain the possibility of occult concepts in video games and film being either for aesthetic OR more deceptive/maleolent means while YOU try to deny the possibility of the latter in favour of the former.

I deny and I’ll keep denying because I know enough from my literary/art criticism classes and from my club of literature buffs back in college to declare the pointlessness of it all. I distinctly remember telling those basic facts all you did was ignore, rant, insult, ignore. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

It’s quite interesting that you are always left without a word when it’s proven that the whole world out there eats and interprets fiction in ways so chaotic, there are no absolutes. Therefore, speculating the possibility of so-called ‘occult’ concepts being used for ‘malevolent’ ends becomes meaningless.

If you are not familiar with occult concepts then learn about them before you try to defend your point Not too long ago you didn’t seem to even know what the freemason square and compass was. Yet you want to speak at length about an area you seem to have little knowledge about outside of the - again - fantasy.

I walk by a signpost directing people to a Freemasonry lodge. Every. Single. Day. I knew what your precious square and compass looks like even before I knew you existed. I also know how easy it would be to start looking for squares and compasses together everywhere and make the claim that Masonic influence is everywhere.

See, unlike you, I have a life outside of conspiracy theories and chasing signs and symbols in fiction.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I agree with you, actually. For example, Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy, which is unquestionably anti-religion.

But where does the influence stem from really, the symbols or the underlying attitude and anti-religious concepts expressed in the words of the characters?

I believe it’s the latter. I mean I’ve read a few excerpts from Pullman and I have to say, it’s the content, not the symbolism, that make me roll my eyes. Images have nothing to do with it.

But the video games I tend to play (Mario, Zelda, etc.) are not controversial in that regard. Do you have any examples of the “deceptive/malevolent” presence of occult themes in video games?

Watch out now. He might start citing Yu-Gi-Oh! and Harry Potter as examples… again.

 

[Baelor]

1. There are occult influences in media which could lead youngsters into occult practices which can conjure up genuine demons. Youngsters either knowingly or unknowingly cast spells or worship demons (demons from hell that is, i.e. Lucifer’s minions). They could even join a Satanist cult, etc.

Could you please provide some cases of this? It would be interesting to me to see what media fit into this category.

1. There are occult (and other negative influences) which could lead youngsters into blasphemy and heresy but not necessarily lead them to get involved with the occult itself - eg His Dark Materials.

HDM is not occult. I guess it would fit under the “other negative influences,” but I just want to make it absolutely clear that it is not demonic influence (beyond tempting from the Devil in the case of almost all sins) from such media that lead to heresy and blasphemy.

But where does the influence stem from really, the symbols or the underlying attitude and anti-religious concepts expressed in the words of the characters?

Does it matter? I was not drawing the distinction between symbols and the underlying attitude in my response to kinja – that was your discussion, not mine.

Watch out now. He might start citing Yu-Gi-Oh! and Harry Potter as examples… again.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Does it matter? I was not drawing the distinction between symbols and the underlying attitude in my response to kinja – that was your discussion, not mine.

I’ve just read enough from his posts to establish that he certainly has a fixation on symbolism and how he keeps trying to tie it to anti-religious or ‘occult’ themes. It certainly does matter to him. I actually agree with you that Pullman’s work isn’t about the occult either, just atheist philosophy painted with a brush of fantasy. Hence, I find talk of symbolism irrelevant.

Seriously, he’s done it before.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I would like to know the last time that a “demon” has been “summoned.”

Not just by a youngster, but frankly, by anyone, ever. I mean… come on people. Come… on.

 

[Tenofovir]

Could you please provide some cases of this? It would be interesting to me to see what media fit into this category.

While I can’t give you an example because I don’t spend my time perusing this type of thing but I would venture that books such as spell-casting or summoning manuals would count here. Satanic and other type literature which may have been softened to appear more palatable. Perhaps genuine occult prayers/summonings/what-have-you incorporated into media for kids. The kid then focuses on the prayer and decides to engage the demon himself.

HDM is not occult. I guess it would fit under the “other negative influences,” but I just want to make it absolutely clear that it is not demonic influence (beyond tempting from the Devil in the case of almost all sins) from such media that lead to heresy and blasphemy.

Of course items I described above could be here too, depending of how the person approaches them. It’s not demonic influence but the polluting of the mind with nonsense.

 

[Tenofovir]

I would like to know the last time that a “demon” has been “summoned.”

Not just by a youngster, but frankly, by anyone, ever. I mean… come on people. Come… on.

I frankly don’t know. However, as per Peter Kreeft, it is possible. Demons (We are legion) do exist. Numerous exorcisms include examples of demons. I also can’t say that the demons summoned would be in Hollywood fashion but may appear as being more innocuous and lead to for example a greater degree of narcissism or nihilism then allow people to have extraordinary strength or to speak with a vicious tone of voice. Of course someone could also believe they are possessed or have summoned a demon and of course that would be a psychiatric issue - as the vast majority of demon possessions are.

What I was trying to do iwas classify the types of influences the occult found in media may have on others. So that we don’t talk past each other.

 

[Baelor]

While I can’t give you an example because I don’t spend my time perusing this type of thing but I would venture that books such as spell-casting or summoning manuals would count here. Satanic and other type literature which may have been softened to appear more palatable. Perhaps genuine occult prayers/summonings/what-have-you incorporated into media for kids. The kid then focuses on the prayer and decides to engage the demon himself.

Fair enough. But according to your own account, this category is extremely narrow – we are looking for non-fiction literature that is explicitly Satanic. As to the “genuine occult” etc. that has been softened and presented to kids, I would love some examples that are anything other than obvious attempts at such.

 

[Tenofovir]

Fair enough. But according to your own account, this category is extremely narrow – we are looking for non-fiction literature that is explicitly Satanic. As to the “genuine occult” etc. that has been softened and presented to kids, I would love some examples that are anything other than obvious attempts at such.

I would also say not explicitly Satanic. One could invoke other gods for example, such as Baal. These are said to be demons too.

Again I can’t say that I have come across any such material myself. Perhaps there is none or very little. Perhaps Victorian era books summoning ancient Egyptian goddesses no longer capture the imagination of the youth. Who knows.

I gather that it’s also subjective effect. What the reader makes of the story. If the kid is playing with realistic pentagrams as part of a game or adventure experience and the aim really is to defeat some monster and rescue the princess, I hardly think this would be an influence on him.

 

[kinja]

If this is true, pretty much EVERY game with some sort of fantastical element is pushing Paganism! I’m willing to bet most of them are just trying to tell a good story. Besides, how many people are going to actually recognize said symbols in game unless they’re a mythology buff (like me)? It always seems like people need to call in “experts” to ferret out these sinister symbols for them. I kind of wonder how many people would actually recognize a Seal of Solomon or elemental symbols in a game as opposed to say, triangles with lines in them, like so:

spiritalchemy.com/img/Element-Signs.png

I personally would rather be playing the game than scouring the set pieces for symbols that may or may not have real life equivalents.

Erik Davis’ Techgnosis is an OK read on the the new age influence on contemporary culture and entertainment. Understanding the propaganda model posited by Herman and Chomsky is also very informative although not directly related to the trends presented in Techgnosis yet provides some insight into how those with economic power can influence a society.

The symbols themselves are not the issue but the context like I said before.

 

[Baelor]

Possibly or a game designer/creator may be trying to proselytize or even boast about their own beliefs. Who knows really what the intent actually is?

There are good guesses. For example, if the symbols have to do with the plot, then one would have good reason for assuming that the symbols have to do with the plot.

But perhaps a better approach would be for you to provide the name of a video game (or several) that include symbols as an intent “to proselytize or even boast about” the beliefs of the game creators.

 

[kinja]

There are good guesses. For example, if the symbols have to do with the plot, then one would have good reason for assuming that the symbols have to do with the plot.

But perhaps a better approach would be for you to provide the name of a video game (or several) that include symbols as an intent “to proselytize or even boast about” the beliefs of the game creators.

Re-read my post. I stated “possibly”. There is no way that I or anyone else can determine the intent of an artist or video game designer. The thing about the occult is that if it’s “secrets” were fully understood by outsiders and clearly defined in the media as occult then they it would not be occult. The word occult indicates hidden knowledge. One thing is clear is that CERTAIN symbols have become increasingly prominent and frequent inthe media.

For example the eye of ra and the all seeing eye has become very popular in all forms of media and is displayed routinely by popular acts as well such as Lady Gaga. Also in video games like Conduit1 and 2, Assassins Creed 2 to name a few. There are more direct displays of the eye of ra in an occult context with PC games like serious sam. The argument made by some people that the symbols are mutable and some/all of these symbols are/have been used by Catholicism does not hold water when the symbols are viewed in the context of the game itself.

For example if a crucifix featuring a tortured Jesus Christ is displayed in a game (as in the case of the masterfully done L.A. Noire) then most people will associate this with Christianity especially due to the fact that the rooms in which this symbol is displayed belonged to people who either were known to be christian or had other items such as bibles and pictures of our lady of guadalupe hanging on the walls.

Similarly if a pyramid capstone with an illuminated eye at the top is displayed in a video game it could mean that the game designer/director secretly wants their love for the Redemptorist order of the Catholic priesthood (who uses the eye of providence in its insignia and even the eye in the capstone) to be advertised. But if the game is one with a plot and story like The Conduit then this:

The campaign storyline focuses on an alien invasion of Washington, D.C. in the near future. The alien race, known as the Drudge, uses the eponymous portal-like Conduits to deploy their forces throughout the city. A shadow government organization called the Trust sends newly inducted agent Michael Ford into the area initially to disrupt a terrorist threat, but he quickly becomes embroiled in the fight to stop the invasion and save the capital from destruction.

…starts “looking” glaringly more like a play to the ancient egyptian concept of stargates and interdimensional travel and alien visitation and communication (occult).

Like I said I cannot be certain of the intention but these trends are not just aesthetic I believe but as Davis postulates in Nomad Codes the symbols are revivals from old pagan lore. Whether they are used for purely aesthetic reasons or not is not conclusive so let no one fool you. There is much speculation on either side on the issue of the occult presence in media still so I am just following the story as it unfolds.

Blessings.

 

[kinja]

There are good guesses. For example, if the symbols have to do with the plot, then one would have good reason for assuming that the symbols have to do with the plot.

But perhaps a better approach would be for you to provide the name of a video game (or several) that include symbols as an intent “to proselytize or even boast about” the beliefs of the game creators.

And while the intent of these developer cannot be easily decuced. See what he writes about neopagans in technology (emphasis mine):

A startling number of Pagans work and play in technical fields, as sysops, computer programmers, and network engineers. On the surface, technopagans like Pesce embody quite a contradiction: they are Dionysian nature worshippers who embrace the Apollonian artifice of logical machines. **But Pagans are also magic users, and they know that the Western magical tradition has more to give a Wired world than the occasional product name or the background material for yet another hack-and-slash game. Magic is the science of the imagination, the art of engineering consciousness and discovering the virtual forces that connect the body-mind with the physical world. And technopagans suspect that these occult Old Ways can provide some handy tools and tactics in our dizzying digital environment of intelligent agents, visual databases, and online MUDs and MOOs… **…In a sense, humanity has always lived within imaginative interfaces - at least from the moment the first Paleolithic grunt looked at a mountain or a beast and saw a god peering back. Over the millennia, alchemists, Kabbalists, and esoteric Christians developed a rich storehouse of mental tools, visual dataspaces, and virtual maps. It’s no accident that these “hermetic” arts are named for Hermes, the Greek trickster god of messages and information. One clearly relevant hermetic technique is the art of memory, first used by ancient orators and rediscovered by magicians and Jesuits during the Renaissance. In this mnemonic technique, you construct a clearly defined building within your imagination and then place information behind an array of colorful symbolic icons - by then “walking through” your interior world, you can recover a storehouse of knowledge.

The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus gives perhaps the most famous hermetic maxim: “As above, so below.” According to this ancient Egyptian notion, the cosmos is a vast and resonating web of living symbolic correspondences between humans and earth and heaven. And as Pesce points out, this maxim also points to a dynamite way to manipulate data space. “You can manipulate a whole bunch of things with one symbol, dragging in a whole idea space with one icon. It’s like a nice compression algorithm.”

• Erik Davis (Wired 1995)

The influence of paganism and the occult in video games is apparent to anyone who has eyes to see. Despite the rantings of some who choose to believe that all occurences of symbolism in video games is purely for aesthetic reasons I think we should be equally open to the idea that some of these designers are actually familiar with the use of these symbols in an religious (neopagan/occult) context.

 

[Baelor]

Re-read my post. I stated “possibly”. There is no way that I or anyone else can determine the intent of an artist or video game designer. The thing about the occult is that if it’s “secrets” were fully understood by outsiders and clearly defined in the media as occult then they it would not be occult. The word occult indicates hidden knowledge. One thing is clear is that CERTAIN symbols have become increasingly prominent and frequent inthe media.

Reread mine. Simply stating that any mention of the occult in any medium is “possibly” insidious is not only factually inaccurate, but also intellectually lazy in the extreme.

If one is going to disregard or condemn something on, say, the basis of the occult, then some reason for doing so is needed, lest Catholicism and its adherents become equivalent to the fundamentalist fearmongers omnipresent today. So, let me rephrase:

Please point out a video game (to restrict the scope to that in the OP) in which you believe that the inclusion of occult symbols has malevolent intent, and briefly explain why. Given that you admit the possibility of this, it should be exceedingly easy to do.

…starts “looking” glaringly more like a play to the ancient egyptian concept of stargates and interdimensional travel and alien visitation and communication (occult).

None of those things could possibly be construed as dangerously occult in the Catholic context, since you are expanding the occult to levels that the Church does not – i.e., all “hidden” knowledge, where hidden is broadly defined as “things we do not understand.”

The influence of paganism and the occult in video games is apparent to anyone who has eyes to see.

Yeah, that is obvious. Some things in video games – like showing magic/the devil/Greek gods – are obviously pagan/occult. That does not mean that they are anything other than plot devices and/or atmosphere creators.

Furthermore, the excerpt you posted has zero substantiation within it. Where are the studies demonstrating this? I care little for what one person has to say about something that is statistically verifiable.

Despite the rantings of some who choose to believe that all occurences of symbolism in video games is purely for aesthetic reasons I think we should be equally open to the idea that some of these designers are actually familiar with the use of these symbols in an religious (neopagan/occult) context.

And once you present a shred of compelling evidence for one video game, your point will be all the much stronger.