My neice is playing online games with occult themes?

[Lost_Wanderer]

First off, that’s not a “logical inconsistency” it’s just an inconsistency.

Second, symbols are like words. They can have more than one meaning. When a word has more than one meaning, you don’t conclude “that’s enough to destroy the inherent value of the word.” You say “this word has more than one meaning.”

I think we’ve confused each other here. Okay, for future reference, when I speak of inherent values in words, I’m generally speaking of some supposed inherent value that is absolute regardless of what other meanings there are. This is what I’m arguing against.

Actually, we (or rather you and thisone35) were talking about the goat’s head in the pentagram (Sigil of Baphomet), not just any pentagram.

But no matter, both are associated with the devil, both historically, and in fiction and gaming.

No… I was talking about the pentagram and if you read thisone35’s post, you’d realize that he is interpreting the pentagram in the game as the goat’s head.

What I’m saying is that it’s not necessarily the case and, again, I can back it up with some games of my own (and my own interpretations).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

…and a five-pointed star with a circle around it in most peoples’ minds is associated with Satanism or Wicca.

Uhh… no. I’m part of subculture that actually interprets that as “Oh look, Mahou Gakuen desu!”

The necromancer you are talking about may be dressed up in the fantasy world but he isn’t that much different to the real life necromancer in his function - reanimating the dead. I read about the voodoo priest of haiti and africa and how they use occult means to raise and contact the dead.

Did these dead actually move about in hordes and tried to eat you? Are they abominations of rotting flesh stitched together?

By the way, you do know the Church sanctions legitimate self defense right? Have you actually EVER played a fantasy RPG?

I’ll tell ya one thing: Bandits are not friendly.

It seems to me like some game makers are obsessed with things that are condemned by god.

No. They’re about making fictional worlds where people can have more fun.
You might not be one of those people but there are those whose current station in life (like me) who find reality less conforming to their sense of taste.

P.S.

Oh yeah and FYI? Interesting thing about fantasy is that the Catholic Church we (and when I say ‘we’, I give special mention to our very theological apologists) know doesn’t even exist. It’s a totally different world that you’d be hard pressed to measure by the standards of our own. It’s one reason why hard core science-geeks have a tendency to dislike the fantasy genre in the first place.

Even if you go as far as to try and turn Catholicism into a Crystal Dragon Jesus in an attempt to make an alternate fantasy version of our own universe, it’s never gonna be the same. Trust me. I tried. XD

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

To be fair, I don’t know much about Wizard101, but I did sign up to play it when I saw this thread. I’m–get this—an “Ice Wizard”, belonging to the school of “Ice.”

On the surface, this game looks totally innocent—maybe even cartoonish.

I think the only reason to condemn this game is if you have condemned science altogether. I mean, what in the world is the niece learning in school/Church/from parents that “magical ice spells” or whatever are thought to be something even remotely possible???

Right, so maybe the problem is not this game but supernaturalism/superstition. 1% of me is concerned with this child trying to cast spells, the other 99% is concerned that she’s getting a brutally awful education if she can’t separate this from reality. Failing that, perhaps it’s “escapism,” which would be a good sign that she needs the help and guidance of a mental health professional.

We don’t live in the middle ages. This child should be informed that you cannot just wake up one day and cast magical spells - defying the scientific laws of God’s universe. Having to even explain this makes me feel like I’m trapped in the Twilight Zone or something. Spells, really? Spells?

The phenomenon of so-called “zombies” is purely a natural, scientifically explained process. Wicked, yes. But not supernatural. If she’s thinking about those types of things then yeah, you have a problem on your hands… consult a Priest/counselor/etc.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

We don’t live in the middle ages. This child should be informed that you cannot just wake up one day and cast magical spells - defying the scientific laws of God’s universe.

Having to even explain this makes me feel like I’m trapped in the Twilight Zone or something. Spells, really? Spells?

You know, if magic in this world was really like the magic in fantasy games, civilization itself would have taken an entirely different direction than the one we are currently on right now.

That and you’d probably see my face on either a popular wizarding magazine or a wanted poster.

By the way, seen my recent thread on the laughable confusion religious folks make?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Uh for one thing, they are NOT the same symbols because if you consider certain things like context and different interpretations, that’s certainly enough evidence to believe that it’s we who call the shots.

You mean the same crucifix that once stood for a shameful death and Roman execution?

I used to play a game called ninja kids. There is a scene with an upside down pentagram with symbols around it and a demon (baphomet-like) creature sitting in the lotus position near it. The enemy in the game is called the Satan as well. That sounds pretty much like context for the occult to me. To say that all those symbols and words were put together by accident is being deliberately ignorant I would say.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Wow so basically we just let the pagans and the occultist take whatever symbol they want and we stay far away from it? Yes that’s very rational. It really paints our religion in a very intellectual light.

With reasoning like this, it’s no wonder the Satanists easily won St. Peter’s cross.

Well I’m glad you are admitting that the pagans/satanists are actually using these symbols in an occult context. I don’t think it is wise to advocate that every catholic be blind to these occult themes in games though. Unless we have a drive to promote the Symbols for Jesus similar to the pagans to counteract them it isnot good to keep buying into their merchandize without being aware of these things I think.

There is a big difference in recognising when something is being used in an occult context and staying far away from it. I suspect that many things are done in video games with an occult context but I may still choose to play the games. So long as you know what the right thing is and your faith is secure you are ok. I do believe that there is alot of occult themes in many games.

Cheers

 

[ElectricBlue]

Uh for one thing, they are NOT the same symbols because if you consider certain things like context and different interpretations, that’s certainly enough evidence to believe that it’s we who call the shots.

You mean the same crucifix that once stood for a shameful death and Roman execution?

I specifically said the crucifix with Jesus on it. If someone decided to use a crucifix with a dog instead hanging on it who would associate it with Jesus’ passion and death? Context is what we are talking about. Take enough stuff used in the occult altogether and somebody would have to be wacko or something not to make an educated guess like we all do for just about everything else in life. A cross by itself may be mutable but when you put an INRI sign above the victim’s head and a crown of thorns on his head as well it would be reasonable to assume that it’s a reference to Jesus crucifiction yes?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Just a few points please (humor me)

1. The meaning of symbols are mutable but the context part is what I think is important. alot of games i see don’t just have symbols flashing on screen all willy nilly. the pentagram in this context is usually accompanied by some type of demonic looking activity in the games like the example of ninja kids that i gave. if it’s demonic stuff with references to satan and non to god or jesus then most logical people would associate the pentagram with the demons stuff right?
2. I looked up the history of the pentagram and it seems that it came before christianity…looooong before. So maybe it was coopted by chirsitians to mean something holy I dunno. What I see is certain symbols accompanied by satanic pictures and stuff not godly stuff.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No. They’re about making fictional worlds where people can have more fun.
You might not be one of those people but there are those whose current station in life (like me) who find reality less conforming to their sense of taste.

That may be so but God made this world we live in didn’t he? Someone once told me that people who are bored with reality are just plain boring. Why would he make a boring world for us to live in? People who talk like that need to get out more I think. See the sights and the beauty of God’s creation

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Context is what we are talking about. Take enough stuff used in the occult altogether and somebody would have to be wacko or something not to make an educated guess like we all do for just about everything else in life.

Not necessarily. Look at Hellboy. He’s red. He’s got a pointy tail. He’s got horns to boot. (It doesn’t matter if he just breaks and files his horns. We still know what they originally were.)

Another example is my favorite Marvel superhero: Ghost Rider.

Flaming skull? Check.
Hellfire powers? Check.
Biker leather? Check.
Spiky studs? Check.
Wicked looking motor cycle? Triple check.

Evil and satanically irredeemable personality? Wait…

Let’s turn this the other way around shall we? How about… Pope Alexander VI?

Nuff said.

A cross by itself may be mutable but when you put an INRI sign above the victim’s head and a crown of thorns on his head as well it would be reasonable to assume that it’s a reference to Jesus crucifiction yes?

Not when you use it as the banner of a zombie parade or put it in the background of a gothic lolita art piece.

While I’m not denying the role of context in determining meaning, it’s not the only factor. You mix and match other concepts well enough and you’ll find sweeping judgments like yours in need of serious re-evaluation.

That may be so but God made this world we live in didn’t he? Someone once told me that people who are bored with reality are just plain boring.

Oh really? My office mates seem to find me funny. You know why? Because taking stabs at the things which make our lives wearisome makes them easier to bear.

Why would he make a boring world for us to live in? People who talk like that need to get out more I think. See the sights and the beauty of God’s creation

Please don’t sicken me with this talk of ‘the beauty of God’s creation’. That beauty was lost after the Fall. I’ve already seen the so-called beauty that you speak of. Mind you, I find it only mentally palatable after re-imagining it with a fantasy make-over. All we have now are lives run by toil, busy schedules, quotas, and talks of a downhill global economy that forces even the noses of the rich hard on the grindstone just to sustain our kind’s basic needs.

Wonderful world indeed.

Ironically, this isn’t to say there isn’t any good in my life. However, the reason why I now enjoy the company I keep is because we all take pleasure in escaping (one way or another). Taking a leaf from Tolkien’s letters, we are all kindred spirits, trapped in a prison of repetition, monotony, and we all strive together to break free (even for just a moment). We put up with the toil because by working at its whim, we set it up to destroy itself for a moment and liberate our tired minds.

 

[kinja]

Oh really? My office mates seem to find me funny. You know why? Because taking stabs at the things which make our lives wearisome makes them easier to bear.

Please don’t sicken me with this talk of ‘the beauty of God’s creation’. That beauty was lost after the Fall. I’ve already seen the so-called beauty that you speak of. Mind you, I find it only mentally palatable after re-imagining it with a fantasy make-over. All we have now are lives run by toil, busy schedules, quotas, and talks of a downhill global economy that forces even the noses of the rich hard on the grindstone just to sustain our kind’s basic needs.

Wonderful world indeed.

Ironically, this isn’t to say there isn’t any good in my life. However, the reason why I now enjoy the company I keep is because we all take pleasure in escaping (one way or another). Taking a leaf from Tolkien’s letters, we are all kindred spirits, trapped in a prison of repetition, monotony, and we all strive together to break free (even for just a moment). We put up with the toil because by working at its whim, we set it up to destroy itself for a moment and liberate our tired minds.

Uhhh…I tend to agree with this view in light of your above comments:

Escapism is mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation, as an “escape” from the perceived unpleasant aspects of daily stress. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to try to help relieve feelings of depression or general sadness.

In the context of being taken to an extreme, the word “escapism” carries a negative connotation, suggesting that escapists are unhappy, with an inability or unwillingness to connect meaningfully with the world.

However, there are some who challenge the idea that escapism is fundamentally and exclusively negative. For instance, J.R.R. Tolkien, responding to the Anglo-Saxon academic debate on escapism in the 1930s, wrote in his essay “On Fairy-Stories” that escapism had an element of emancipation in its attempt to figure a different reality. His friend C. S. Lewis was also fond of humorously remarking that the usual enemies of escape were jailers.

Some social critics warn of attempts by the powers that control society to provide means of escapism instead of actually bettering the condition of the people. For example, Karl Marx wrote that “Religion is the opium of the people.” This is contrary to the thought of Saint Augustine of Hippo, who argued that people try to find satisfaction in material things to fill a void within them that only God can fill.

For more information on the topic visit:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapism

Nuff said?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Nuff said?

You quote something that cites various different views, all of them though by respectable thinkers. Can’t say I understand how you ‘agree’ with it unless you have an equally split-personality.

However, given that you in particular have a disdain for Tolkien, Lewis, and are obviously not a Marxist. I can only guess you’re in agreement with that St. Augustine bit.

I can’t say how religion succeeds in relieving stress compared to fantasy. Then again, I’m talking to someone who has proven Marx right. I can name a number of past posts of yours that tried to make religion to be some sort of opium that can replace fantasy entertainment.

 

[Baelor]

Sorry, some posts in this thread were really bothersome to me, so I could not help responding.

for there are some such as Twilight that are manuals for sex & love addiction

The author is a Mormon. The novels explicitly praise abstinence until marriage. Seriously, do people read these books before commenting on them? Clearly not.

instead asserts that both sides have valid reasons for their views

This was in reference to the very long essay. It was picked apart on page 5, and those criticisms were never addressed. I agree with them – he actually has not convincingly asserted that the anti-Harry Potter people have any valid basis whatsoever.

Remember that Rowling is a modern-day Brit, a country which recognizes druidry as an acceptable religion and is steeped in practical atheism.

So she’s tainted by proxy? What kind of intellectual laziness is this?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So she’s tainted by proxy? What kind of intellectual laziness is this?

The kind that the Anti-Fantasy League is known for. What do you expect from a group that hails the likes of Jack Chick and Bill Schnoebelen as its champions?

 

[Baelor]

I need to research them so I know what I as a Catholic am up against! Thank you for giving me some names.

Gosh, people need to read some Aristotle and realize that fantasy as an expression of God-given reason is a good thing. :dts:

 

[ZhaneAugustine]

occult symbols meaning satanic, wicca, etc., of which Wizard101 portrays as normal and good, and in a very subtle way.

Zelda, Mario, etc. I view as ok because there is a clear distinction between good and evil.

Out of curiosity, have you played or watched the game, and listened to the storyline?
It seems from the ads that there is definately good and definately evil. The same can be said of Harry Potter.

Just seeing a symbol and thinking, “Sataninc” or hearing the word “demon” and thinking Satan isn’t really realistic in world culture. For one thing, demon in the East means minor spiritaul creatures that can either be helpful or harmful to humans and mortals. Mermaids, unicorns, fairies, elves. these fall into that category. HOWERVER devil in the East means Satan. or Satanic. That being said, as Zelda was created in the East and was an Elf, he’d be considered in that situation as a demon.

The star of david is used by darker magicks, yes. But it is alos a Holy symbol too.

I think what is needed is to gently explain to children the story of reality, and fantasy, and warning them of those who’d use the fantasy nature of their favorite tales to bring them darker. Kids aren’t stupid. Give them prayer and lean room and I am they’ll grow.

 

[ZhaneAugustine]

and btw, I’m not anti-fantasy even though I’m not into it at all anymore. I’m just more on the side of caution when it comes to all of this.

I can see why people are cautious. BUT it is important to not be SO cautious as well. That begins to devolve into superstition. Which is a sin in itself.

 

[Tenofovir]

Hello,

my neice is playing online games that have strong occult themes, and I just found out that there is going to be a harry potter game online. It’s going to be called “Pottermore”. My 12 year old neice has a strong interest in the occult. She has expressed desires to become a wizard in real life. She spends all day on the computer playing Wizard101, which is her favorite game, and is forever saying she wishes there was a harry potter games. She talks about if she could do magic in real life, and this scares me. With the internet I’m not sure what she’s getting into. Should I be worried? If she did get into occult websites, would she hurt me? We’ve had a bumpy relationship, and everytime I try to talk to her about religion she seems to get unsettled. Ideas?

Thanks

She is 12. In several more years she’ll discover the magic of boys, and that will be the real danger. The Wizard stuff will go the way of childhood, unless she grows up to be a basement dweller.

 

[ringil]

This is a funny thread. I suspect that those decrying fantasy and saying “Zelda is OK” are just looking for reactions.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I’d be curious to see how many kids who’ve read Harry Potter discover magick (note spelling) as a real-world practice and decide to take it up…only to find out to their discouragement, that it’s a lot more complicated than pointing a stick at something, yelling a Latin-derived word at it and expecting things to happen.