My Pastor said, "anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy."

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My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
 
Hmm, sounds like it’s time to shake the dust from your feet and move on, I’m afraid.

Your position is entirely scriptural, by the way. And even St Paul would agree that OSAS is baloney.

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Corinthians 9:27, KJV)

Now if anyone, at all, ever, was ‘saved’ as your pastor would interpret that word, it was St Paul. Yet here he is, a long while after being ‘saved’, STILL worrying about being disqualified, a ‘castaway’.

Elsewhere Paul talks about working out one’s salvation “with fear and trembling” Philippians 2:12, and says “Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” (1 Corinthians 10:12)

None of this is remotely compatible with OSAS. 🤷
 
Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
Well, if an individual chooses (free will) to refuse Christ (even if they had earlier in life embraced him) then as far as that particular individual is concerned, Christ’s sacrifice was for not. That doesn’t mean that the person cannot come back or that Christ’s crucifixion was in vain for others. It simply means that the gift offered by Christ was refused by that person. There is no such thing as “once saved always saved.”
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
Because many Protestants do not recognize the Catholic Church as being a (the) Christian Church. They have been taught incorrectly such things as we worship Mary, we worship idols, we added books to the Bible, etc. etc. etc.
 
My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
The answer to your first question is found in Hebrews 6: 4-8
*4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
*
Actually if a pastor does not want to be questioned on his/her teachings I would be very suspect of them. I welcome being questioned if I say something that does not sound like the way they read it. If the pastor cannot back the statement but rather throws out if you question something that it is blasphemous, I would tend to think he cannot defend his own faith. I used to be a OSAS person but the more I studied scripture and participated in the discussions here on this forum I learned that this interpretation of scripture cannot line up.

The answer to your second question is one of bigotry and presumption on the part of your pastor to assume that he is judge over you and your family to say if you leave this church and become Catholic that you are going to Hell. If the Catholic church has hardly changed in 2000 years, or the Orthodox for that matter, why is he questioning this. The “Christian” thing to do would be send you with his blessing. Let me pose this to you, what tactics are used when some one leaves a cult? Do they not say that they are going to Hell or worse? If you live in a state that has defamation per se as part of its law you could take the pastor to court if he continues.
 
My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
One of my friends is the same way. Unless you believe as I do, I’m not going to believe what you say. Doesn’t make much sense does it?
  1. I do not understand your questions. You are not turning away from the Lord, you are just believe differently than what that pastor was preaching.
  2. It depends. My grandmother (fundamentalist) doesn’t feel that way about my family or my dad (who converted to Catholicism). On the other hand, my Baptist cousins are worried about us (not condemning us, but they have been taught untruths, and are worried). You WILL be asked about your new faith, and some will be hostile. But remember, you are not here to please man, but to please God.
 
My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
So what happens when this Pastor proclaims that the Trinity is false, when he proclaims that the virgin birth is a myth, or any other fact of Christianity he decides does not fit into his own personal and fallible brand of theology? Then “refuses to defend his position threatening to get angry because anyone who questions OSAS (HIS AUTHORITY, HIS INTERPRETATION) is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy”. At what point does he then become a false teacher or prophet? This is the problem when you have one individual who is basically unaccountable to anyone and goes about as you describe. No governing body without any checks and balances, it’s all about which way the wind is blowing and the flavor of the month and what makes me feel good.

Matthew 7:15-20 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.

Footnote [15-20] Christian disciples who claimed to speak in the name of God are called prophets (Matthew 7:15) in Matthew 10:41; Matthew 23:34. They were presumably an important group within the church of Matthew. As in the case of the Old Testament prophets, there were both true and false ones, and for Matthew the difference could be recognized by the quality of their deeds, the fruits (Matthew 7:16). The mention of fruits leads to the comparison with trees, some producing good fruit, others bad.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.

**Footnote [4] **Preaches another Jesus: the danger is specified, and Paul’s opponents are identified with the cunning serpent. The battle for minds has to do with the understanding of Jesus, the Spirit, the gospel; the Corinthians have flirted with another understanding than the one that Paul handed on to them as traditional and normative.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

**Footnote [1-3] **The pattern of false prophets among the Old Testament people of God will recur through false teachers in the church. Such destructive opinions of heretical sects bring loss of faith in Christ, contempt for the way of salvation (cf 2 Peter 2:21), and immorality.

2 Peter 2:21
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them

Jude 1:3
Beloved, although I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation, I now feel a need to write to encourage you to contend for the faith that was once for all handed down to the holy ones.
 
My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
Whoever will be saved, will be saved. But it would be arrogant to say we know with 100% certainty just who that might be. 🙂
 
Whoever will be saved, will be saved. But it would be arrogant to say we know with 100% certainty just who that might be. 🙂
AMEN!!!
ONLY God knows this, It is presumptuous to think that we know the will of God. The Bible does say that we have the HOPE of the resurrection. OSAS many times rely that you only pray a prayer and you are saved, that is only the first step. 1 Corinthians 3 speaks of people being carnal and babes in Christ when they should not be. This is why I do not believe in OSAS as it is usually presented. The weak excuse given for a person who falls away, is “they were not true Christians to start with.” I guess what they are really saying is that when the Holy Spirit called on them and they answered that they never meant it. The problem is that many OSAS churches have little to no follow up with persons who are baby Christians. The problem is that God will hold them as accountable and they way they justify NON Action is to say, “they never really meant it” or “they were not true Christians.”

Does anybody know who first started the notion that Catholics were not Christians???
 
For me, if Satan were to choose a doctrine that suited him, it would be OSAS. What a perfect scam. It does not matter what you do after you are “saved”, you cannot ever lose your salvation.

Satan must get a kick out of that.
 
My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
Is your pastor a strict, five-point Calvinist? He may well not be, but the position you describe only makes sense (in my opinion) in that context. Five-point Calvinists would argue that Jesus’ death on the Cross atoned for the sins of certain specific people whom God has predestined (this is called “limited atonement”–it’s the most controversial of the traditional five points of Calvinism–hence those who believe it are called “five-point Calvinists”). Only those whom God has chosen and for whom Jesus died are moved by the Holy Spirit to repent and believe. So for anyone who has once believed in Christ to fall away would mean that Jesus’ death failed to take effect.

As I said, limited atonement is the most controversial of the five points. There are Calvinists who reject it an are called “four-point Calvinists.” More common, in the modern U.S., are semi-Calvinists (mostly Baptists) who reject the idea of absolute predestination as well, but still believe in “eternal security.” They believe that Jesus died for everyone and that we have the free choice whether or not to choose to accept salvation. However, the Calvinist framework is still in place, just severely modified, so they still tend to think of our final salvation once we have made that initial choice as something guaranteed by Jesus’ death. The argument is that believers’ sins no longer count against us, because Jesus bore them on the Cross. Hence, for anyone who had once believed to go to hell would mean that Jesus’ death was ineffective.

I think it’s easy to poke holes in this position in the absence of the doctrine of limited atonement, which really provides the basis for this line of arguing.
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?😦
It is ironic coming from folks who believe in eternal security, isn’t it? Of course they would have to say that you were never saved in the first place. . . . :mad:

God bless,

Edwin
 
Well, if an individual chooses (free will) to refuse Christ (even if they had earlier in life embraced him) then as far as that particular individual is concerned, Christ’s sacrifice was for not. That doesn’t mean that the person cannot come back or that Christ’s crucifixion was in vain for others. It simply means that the gift offered by Christ was refused by that person. There is no such thing as “once saved always saved.”
I just realized I phrased that a bit awkwardly. What I meant was that if one says there is even the possibility of a person becoming “unsaved” is to make Christ’s sacrifice in vain (IAW my pastor).
 
One of my friends is the same way. Unless you believe as I do, I’m not going to believe what you say. Doesn’t make much sense does it?
  1. I do not understand your questions. You are not turning away from the Lord, you are just believe differently than what that pastor was preaching.
  2. It depends. My grandmother (fundamentalist) doesn’t feel that way about my family or my dad (who converted to Catholicism). On the other hand, my Baptist cousins are worried about us (not condemning us, but they have been taught untruths, and are worried). You WILL be asked about your new faith, and some will be hostile. But remember, you are not here to please man, but to please God.
#1. in an ABA church (what could also be referred to as Landmark Fundamental Baptist), it is exactly the same thing.

#2. I was referring to my fellow church members who have known me for over 11 years.
 
Does anybody know who first started the notion that Catholics were not Christians???
I cannot presume to answer that question with authority, but when I was spending a lot of time researching that horrible little book “The Trail of Blood” (which by the way started me on my road to Rome), I discovered that it was based quite a bit on some really nasty Seventh Day Adventist writings which had in turn taken an awful lot of Catholic quotes and documents completely out of context and worse would piece together a part of a sentance here and a part of a sentance there and “quote” it as one whole. Foxes Book of Martyrs also does a good job of making Catholics look like a bunch of anti-Christian murderers.
 
Studied OSAS many years, your pastor is right
Please show me in the Bible where it says once saved, always saved. Because the St. Paul stated that he was working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Phil. 2:12 KJV *Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. * Phil. 2:12 NASB * “So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. * **Phil. 2:12 NIV **“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. That is, be equally upon your guard against presumption and despair. St. Paul is anxious to inspire a just confidence in Jesus Christ, but he is not less solicitous to root out all self-confidence arising from our supposed merits or excellence. So if I am OSAS why do I have to work out my salvation with fear and trembling?
 
Studied OSAS many years, your pastor is right
So a person who was ‘saved’ years ago, who then proceeds to reject God, murder, worship satan, and lead people away from the Truth all the way to their deathbed, they will be saved?
 
So a person who was ‘saved’ years ago, who then proceeds to reject God, murder, worship satan, and lead people away from the Truth all the way to their deathbed, they will be saved?
A person who is truly saved could not do what you suggest, It is God that saves, not ourselfs and God has the power to keep that which is his
 
So a person who was ‘saved’ years ago, who then proceeds to reject God, murder, worship satan, and lead people away from the Truth all the way to their deathbed, they will be saved?
They have an exclusion clause to it. They will say that they were never really saved to begin with.
 
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