My Pastor said, "anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy."

[Nicea325]

My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?

So does that now mean you no longer will attend his church and become Catholic, you lose your salvation? Then OSAS is obviously bogus. Christ death on the cross does not guarantee anyone a free ticket for salvation.

 

[Nicea325]

Please show me in the Bible where it says once saved, always saved. Because the St. Paul stated that he was working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Phil. 2:12 KJV *Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. * Phil. 2:12 NASB * “So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. * **Phil. 2:12 NIV **“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. That is, be equally upon your guard against presumption and despair. St. Paul is anxious to inspire a just confidence in Jesus Christ, but he is not less solicitous to root out all self-confidence arising from our supposed merits or excellence. So if I am OSAS why do I have to work out my salvation with fear and trembling?

Exactly! If one is already guaranteed salvation,then why even bother going to any church or pray?

 

[Mike2010]

They have an exclusion clause to it. They will say that they were never really saved to begin with.

I’m curious as to the criteria that would meet the exclusion clause. Anybody know?

 

[wmscott]

I’m curious as to the criteria that would meet the exclusion clause. Anybody know?

It is kind of a convoluted argument, But I will try and explain, if I profess to be saved and follow a Christian life, and then one day I commit a mortal sin and then die with the stain of that mortal sin on my soul, I was never saved to begin with or I wouldn’t have sinned, but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never sin for the rest of their life.

 

[rainman10]

My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?

Your pastor is contradicting himself and doesn’t even realize it. If OSAS is true, then you are saved, even if you become Catholic, atheist or whatever else you decide.

 

[rainman10]

Your pastor is contradicting himself and doesn’t even realize it. If OSAS is true, then you are saved, even if you become Catholic, atheist or whatever else you decide.

Also, under OSAS, if you are saved and as a saved person, you cannot sin, then isn’t your free will taken away?

 

[fhansen]

For me, if Satan were to choose a doctrine that suited him, it would be OSAS. What a perfect scam. It does not matter what you do after you are “saved”, you cannot ever lose your salvation.

Satan must get a kick out of that.

Yeah, it’s kinda like that “justification by faith alone” nonsense where you get to be right in spite of still being wrong-as if God wanted us to stay where we all started out to begin with-fallen! Another evil doctrine.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Yeah, it’s kinda like that “justification by faith alone” nonsense where you get to be right in spite of still being wrong-as if God wanted us to stay where we all started out to begin with-fallen! Another evil doctrine.

I agree. Both are part of the “it is easy and takes no effort” generation.

 

[SpectatorX]

My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?

I used to have such fun with those sorts. If you want to see his head turn purple, just remind him that OSAS has a very clear origin in history well after the 16th century (depending on the particular formula, of course - the most common one these days is barely 100 years old, if I recall) and that he is implicating that nobody believed Christ’s sacrifice was “sufficient” until such time. Granted, he’ll probably defend himself with Trail of Blood historical revisionism, so preparation may be in order. They almost always claim the Albigenses (who were more Gnostic in belief and praxis than they were Christian), so that’s the first out I usually employ.

Man, now you’ve gotten me all excited. I’m clearly experiencing withdrawals. :nunchuk:

 

[Padrej]

Studied OSAS many years, your pastor is right

I have also studied OSAS for years and found it to NOT be of scripture foundation but rather a twisting of it to make one think they are eternally secure and that they can live in what ever sinful lifestyle they want.
I would seriously question ANY pastor’s integrity if you could not question him as to where he gets his interpretation of whatever he preaches. This leads to a dangerous cult like state in the church.

I would have to agree with Loboto-Me that the pastor is out to lunch.

 

[Tietjen]

It is kind of a convoluted argument, But I will try and explain, if I profess to be saved and follow a Christian life, and then one day I commit a mortal sin and then die with the stain of that mortal sin on my soul, I was never saved to begin with or I wouldn’t have sinned, but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never sin for the rest of their life.

That is not usually how I’ve heard it explained. First because Baptists and most Protestant denominations don’t recognize mortal and venial sin. They simply see all sin as being equal in the eys of God. Secondly, regardless of whether or not the “saved” person sins or not (which he/she will do unless they die very soon after becoming “saved”) the OSAS people know that God will forgive the person. It’s not really about sin, so much as what is in the heart of the newly “saved” person. The usual arguement is that if a person is really “saved” that the Holy Spirit will come upon them and the old evil and sinful desires will be taken away from them. In other the words, the Holy Spirit will help guide them down a road which avoids sin and embraces charity and love of neighbor, etc. This doesn’t mean that the person will never sin again, but rather a visible change in the way the person lives should be evident, not because of the person himself (because that would be “works”) but because of the Holy Spirit working through the person.

Just in case anyone is confused as to whether or not I hold the OSAS doctrine to be a valid idea… I do not. I have talked with enough Protestants on the subject to get a fair idea of what they generally believe concerning the OSAS concept.

 

[jilly4ski]

It is kind of a convoluted argument, But I will try and explain, if I profess to be saved and follow a Christian life, and then one day I commit a mortal sin and then die with the stain of that mortal sin on my soul, I was never saved to begin with or I wouldn’t have sinned, but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never sin for the rest of their life.

Then I guess no is is saved and Christ’s death was in vain since we are all sinners

(Tiejen-thanks for the explanation:thumbsup

 

[guanophore]

My Pastor brought up security of the believer and made it abundantly clear that it was not a position that he would even discuss and if he was questioned on it he would get angry because anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy. Since he won’t allow questions:
#1. is there anyone who can enlighten me on how someone exercising their free will to turn away from the Lord (after initially being “saved”) is somehow making Christ’s sacrifice in vain?
#2. why someone like myself and my Husband who have been faithful church members for years and considered to be strong, mature Christians will now no longer be thought of as saved/going to heaven (or even Christians anymore for that matter) because we are joining the Catholic church?

I am sorry this happened to you. Many of our separated brethren have been given a great deal of lies and misinformation about Catholicism. As such, some think that the CC is the 'whore of Babylon" and that people can only be saved if they “come out from among her”. Some have also been convinced that we are idol worshippers, because we honor the saints and have a special regard for the Mother of the Lord.

I hope you can hang with us here at CAF.

 

[Padrej]

I am sorry this happened to you. Many of our separated brethren have been given a great deal of lies and misinformation about Catholicism. As such, some think that the CC is the 'whore of Babylon" and that people can only be saved if they “come out from among her”. Some have also been convinced that we are idol worshippers, because we honor the saints and have a special regard for the Mother of the Lord.

I hope you can hang with us here at CAF.

the “whore of Babylon” line came from the old Geneva Bible. Sometimes I wish that people would take the time to learn what a Catholic really is before they make such rash comments or actually study them. I also wish Catholics would not go by what they have always been told about Protestants. Maybe someday one of us on the CAF can make a difference in somebody’s life and they might change.

 

[wmscott]

That is not usually how I’ve heard it explained. First because Baptists and most Protestant denominations don’t recognize mortal and venial sin. They simply see all sin as being equal in the eys of God. Secondly, regardless of whether or not the “saved” person sins or not (which he/she will do unless they die very soon after becoming “saved”) the OSAS people know that God will forgive the person. It’s not really about sin, so much as what is in the heart of the newly “saved” person. The usual arguement is that if a person is really “saved” that the Holy Spirit will come upon them **and the old evil and sinful desires will be taken away from them. In other the words, the Holy Spirit will help guide them down a road which avoids sin **and embraces charity and love of neighbor, etc. This doesn’t mean that the person will never sin again, but rather a visible change in the way the person lives should be evident, not because of the person himself (because that would be “works”) but because of the Holy Spirit working through the person.

Just in case anyone is confused as to whether or not I hold the OSAS doctrine to be a valid idea… I do not. I have talked with enough Protestants on the subject to get a fair idea of what they generally believe concerning the OSAS concept.

I guess this is rather presumptuous and a recipe for failure then, for we all are sinners and can not avoid it.

 

[wmscott]

A person who is truly saved could not do what you suggest, It is God that saves, not ourselfs and God has the power to keep that which is his

Please provide scriptural references to support you claims. Otherwise it is just you opinion and speculation.

 

[Padrej]

I used to have such fun with those sorts. If you want to see his head turn purple, just remind him that OSAS has a very clear origin in history well after the 16th century (depending on the particular formula, of course - the most common one these days is barely 100 years old, if I recall) and that he is implicating that nobody believed Christ’s sacrifice was “sufficient” until such time. Granted, he’ll probably defend himself with Trail of Blood historical revisionism, so preparation may be in order. They almost always claim the Albigenses (who were more Gnostic in belief and praxis than they were Christian), so that’s the first out I usually employ.

Man, now you’ve gotten me all excited. I’m clearly experiencing withdrawals. :nunchuk:

Could you link to a web site that would have this information regarding the 16th century start of OSAS. I would find it most interesting.

 

[Padrej]

That is not usually how I’ve heard it explained. First because Baptists and most Protestant denominations don’t recognize mortal and venial sin. They simply see all sin as being equal in the eys of God. Secondly, regardless of whether or not the “saved” person sins or not (which he/she will do unless they die very soon after becoming “saved”) the OSAS people know that God will forgive the person. It’s not really about sin, so much as what is in the heart of the newly “saved” person. The usual arguement is that if a person is really “saved” that the Holy Spirit will come upon them and the old evil and sinful desires will be taken away from them. In other the words, the Holy Spirit will help guide them down a road which avoids sin and embraces charity and love of neighbor, etc. This doesn’t mean that the person will never sin again, but rather a visible change in the way the person lives should be evident, not because of the person himself (because that would be “works”) but because of the Holy Spirit working through the person.

Just in case anyone is confused as to whether or not I hold the OSAS doctrine to be a valid idea… I do not. I have talked with enough Protestants on the subject to get a fair idea of what they generally believe concerning the OSAS concept.

I have personally run into many Protestants who think that once you say a sinners prayer that you NEVER sin after that. I have also run into some who think if you committed a sin that you need to be re-baptized. I think the problem arises is that there is no set doctrine amongst Protestants of what OSAS means.

 

[crazzeto]

The answer to your first question is found in Hebrews 6: 4-8
*4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
*
Actually if a pastor does not want to be questioned on his/her teachings I would be very suspect of them. I welcome being questioned if I say something that does not sound like the way they read it. If the pastor cannot back the statement but rather throws out if you question something that it is blasphemous, I would tend to think he cannot defend his own faith. I used to be a OSAS person but the more I studied scripture and participated in the discussions here on this forum I learned that this interpretation of scripture cannot line up.

The answer to your second question is one of bigotry and presumption on the part of your pastor to assume that he is judge over you and your family to say if you leave this church and become Catholic that you are going to Hell. If the Catholic church has hardly changed in 2000 years, or the Orthodox for that matter, why is he questioning this. The “Christian” thing to do would be send you with his blessing. Let me pose this to you, what tactics are used when some one leaves a cult? Do they not say that they are going to Hell or worse? If you live in a state that has defamation per se as part of its law you could take the pastor to court if he continues.

Padrej,

Truely I always enjoy your insightful posts, and certainly only wish I had your knowlege of scripture. One comment I would make here regarding the impossiblity of reconciliation is to bare in mind the meaning of the word impossible in scripture.

Typically it would seem it more references something which is so difficult that one would not expect a human being to achieve such a feat, rather than a literal impossibility which I believe is the context in which this pastor is referreing to it.

For instance, the Rev. George Leo Haydock in his notes on this very passage would referre the reader to Mattew XIX 26 (that it is impossible that a rich man be saved) & Luke XVII (that it is impossible that scandal not come).

It’s never certain that even the greatest of sinners couldnn’t repent with the assitance of God, indeed it does happen and with some frequency. After all, the Lord can certainly forgive any sin, if we accept this then we must accept that the Lord can even forgive those who go into open apostacy against Christ. It’s just not very likely that those people who do so would choose to turn their face back to the Lord.

 

[SpectatorX]

Could you link to a web site that would have this information regarding the 16th century start of OSAS. I would find it most interesting.

Well, the first people to consider eternal salvation a “sure thing” for those who had it were the Calvinists (except for, maybe, the Gnostics, but no self-respecting Christian whould claim the Gnostics). Granted, that theology has some nuances which… turn off many modern Christians, so the idea has taken other forms since. I’m not sure how to give you a reference which demonstrates something’s absence in history. I’ve actually just come to take it for granted because I’ve been using this argument at CARM for over a year now and have yet to receive a credible reply to the contrary (the usual are just Trail of Blood extrapolations - a sort of my-theology-is-correct-so-it-must-have-existed cart before the horse reasoning rather than my-theology-existed-since-the-beginning-therefore-it-is-correct, if you catch my drift).

Maybe I’ll start a thread and see what comes out of it. The noncatholics here seem a bit more learned and less rabid than the sorts to which I’ve grown accustomed.