My pastor won't marry us

[puppylove]

Veronica Anne:

I don’t know… but I suppose that one party to the marriage (i.e. your husband) suffering from alcoholism would be a reason for annulment of the marriage in which you already are.

So, if that is the case – and please note that I am NOT saying that this IS the case – then I can understand why your priest would choose to not bless your marriage.

Hi Veronica Ann: I went through the anullment process and wanted everyone to know that alcoholism is not a basis for anullment, but being drunk during the ceremony is grounds for anullment.

 

[felra]

puppylove:

Wait a minute here. This lady said that she is praying for her husband’s recovery. Not defending it! I know what alcohol can do to a family. I lived it for many years. Supplex, ask your husband to pray to God to take away this addiction he has. God will answer his prayers. Supplex, I believe that you want to get married in the church so that YOU can receive the sacraments. Supplex, am I right? I was in that position also. Maybe it is the tribunal holding back, but don’t you think the pastor would have told her so? God bless you and good luck. See your PM.

Puppy

The marriage sacrament is not a “right” that you demand and determine you are ready to receive. This has been entrusted to the pastor or defer to the local Bishop, if need be. I agree with all the above post that until hubby gets the alcohol out and commits to lifelong sobriety, he is not able to freely and fully consent to the sacramental vow of marriage.

His addiction to alcohol is akin to a person having an active relationship with another female (however sporatic and minimal) while statinjg that he wants to fully enter into lifelong sacramental commitment to his chosen one. On another parallel, would anyone want a seminarian candidate who had a similiar addictive [drinking] problem to be ordained to the priesthood, under good intentions and the hope that he will arrive someday at a decision and grace to live a life free of his addiction?

Get and keep the alcohol out first, then see what’s there after a minimum year of sobriety, then proceed from there.
If a lifelong commitment is meant to be, then a year of premarriage sobriety is really not asking for much and is in everyone’s best interest.

 

[Shoshana]

Veronica Anne:

I don’t know… but I suppose that one party to the marriage (i.e. your husband) suffering from alcoholism would be a reason for annulment of the marriage in which you already are.

So, if that is the case – and please note that I am NOT saying that this IS the case – then I can understand why your priest would choose to not bless your marriage.

Having helped my sister with the annulment of her marriage, my priest was quick to tell me that ANY abusive behavior prior to mariage that is ongoing after would make the marriage invalid. You must connect the thread that existed before/that exists now. In your case, if the priest revealed to you the abuse that would undermine the marriage vows and be a possible annulment in the future, it should be recognized due to the abuses of annulment.

Past behavior is a sign of future behavior until some serious kind of help intervenes. My sister was pysically, sexually, spiritually and mentally abused prior to the marriage and this behavior continued for 22 years. She has as much a problem as the ex was. The Church does advise a time period to re-marry, in case of the pattern redeveloping, which is a good possibility in her case.

This is wise and well-grounded advice on many counts.

Blessings,
Shoshana

PS My sister also took her ex’s side for 22 years until she was made to realize her pathological state of mind. She was an at home also with four children. That was the whole point for him. Stay pregnant, stay home because I won’t allow you to go anywhere. I am your husband and I am your god and you better obey! Or else!

 

[felra]

puppylove:

Hi Veronica Ann: I went through the anullment process and wanted everyone to know that alcoholism is not a basis for anullment, but being drunk during the ceremony is grounds for anullment.

This is too broad a statement, with out contextual qualifiers for making a determination of grounds for annulment. Each case is weighed by it’s own merit.

 

[puppylove]

felra:

The marriage sacrament is not a “right” that you demand and determine you are ready to receive.

After having been married for 6 years and having that marriage anulled and then waiting 2 1/2 years after the first marriage was anulled (declared null an void), to convalidate my second marriage, I can assure you that I do not take the sacarement of marriage lightly and never thought it was my right. Sometimes people come to this post thinking they are high and mighty forgetting the hurt these people feel. People can be so mean. I know because I am guilty of the same in the an earlier post, but was able to realize my errors. This lady needs guidance and gentleness, not people telling her she is “sick”. I am digusted by some of these post. Yes, I know she asked for the advice, but do you think you could find it in your hearts to be kinder? And yes, her hubby needs help, but he has to be the one to want the help. So does she just walk away from 13 years of marriage? Sweetheart, keep praying. Try adoration and saying the rosary at least once a day. Make God #1 in your life and God will come through.

 

[puppylove]

felra:

This is too broad a statement, with out contextual qualifiers for making a determination of grounds for annulment. Each case is weighed by it’s own merit.

Have you been through an anullment?

 

[darcee]

I have and to say that “alcoholism is not a basis for annulment” is too broad.

Each annulment is looked at and decided on its OWN merits. This is Roman law not English common law and the determination is different.

Even if you had requested an annulment based on alcoholism refused it does not mean that it is not ever a grounds for an annulment.

-D

 

[puppylove]

darcee:

I have and to say that “alcoholism is not a basis for annulment” is too broad.

Each annulment is looked at and decided on its OWN merits. This is Roman law not English common law and the determination is different.

Even if you had requested an annulment based on alcoholism refused it does not mean that it is not ever a grounds for an annulment.

-D

Have you too been through an anullment?

To simply want a divorce because your husband is an alcoholic is not grounds for anullment. Now if you husband is an alcoholic and was drunk during the ceremony then that is grounds for an anullment. Or if your husband is an alcoholic and refuses to have children after reciting in his vows that he would accept children lovingly in the marriage, that is another reason for anullment. The church does not and should not give anullments that easily… Should I go on??? Maybe the word alcoholism is “too broad”, but I thought I made that clear on my first post when I said that being an alcoholic AND drunk during the ceremony would be grounds for anullment.

 

[redkim]

supplex:

Ask your husband this question:
What’s more important? His drinking or getting the marriage blessed by the Catholic Church?

 

[puppylove]

redkim:

supplex:

Ask your husband this question:
What’s more important? His drinking or getting the marriage blessed by the Catholic Church?

Supplex: Maybe you should wait. But keep praying. God works in mysterious ways.

 

[darcee]

puppylove:

Have you too been through an anullment?

To simply want a divorce because your husband is an alcoholic is not grounds for anullment. Now if you husband is an alcoholic and was drunk during the ceremony then that is grounds for an anullment. Or if your husband is an alcoholic and refuses to have children after reciting in his vows that he would accept children lovingly in the marriage, that is another reason for anullment. The church does not and should not give anullments that easily… Should I go on??? Maybe the word alcoholism is “too broad”, but I thought I made that clear on my first post when I said that being an alcoholic AND drunk during the ceremony would be grounds for anullment.

As I said in the first two words in my post “I have”. But I would point out that going through an annulment in no way makes you an expert on the subject. I am sure you are well versed on the issues surrounding YOUR annulment, but it is obvious from the above that you do not understand Cannon law in general on this point.

Any impediment to the exercise of freewill in the accepting of the marriage vows CAN be grounds for an annulment. A person would not have to be drunk at the time of the wedding. Alcoholism is considered a mental disease and a spritual issue and as such undermines the sufferer’s capability to make serious sacramental commitments.

Does that mean that in every case alcoholism will mean an annulment? No. Does it mean that anyone who’s spouse is an alcoholic can receive a decree of nullity? Again No.

It is unlikely that if a spouse changed their mind on anything (even children) AFTER the marriage vows are said that an annulment could be obtained, annulments only pertain to the circumstances that are in effect at the time of the wedding… later conditions are usually not grounds for an annulment unless they are indicators of problems that existed at the time of the marriage.

But something occurring AT THE TIME of the vows, such as struggling with a disease like alcoholism, could very well be grounds for a later annulment and the priest is wise to advise caution in proceeding with the sacrament.

-D

 

[pittsburghjeff]

puppylove:

Maybe it is the tribunal holding back, but don’t you think the pastor would have told her so?Puppy

It is my understanding that a case does not get to a tribunal unless one of the parties is trying to annul the marriage.

It would not be correct to say that a tribunal is preventing people from getting married unless the annulment of a previous marriage is at issue. The decision to marry a couple rests with the discretion of the priest in line with the Church’s teaching.

 

[Shoshana]

puppylove:

After having been married for 6 years and having that marriage anulled and then waiting 2 1/2 years after the first marriage was anulled (declared null an void), to convalidate my second marriage, I can assure you that I do not take the sacarement of marriage lightly and never thought it was my right. Sometimes people come to this post thinking they are high and mighty forgetting the hurt these people feel. People can be so mean. I know because I am guilty of the same in the an earlier post, but was able to realize my errors. This lady needs guidance and gentleness, not people telling her she is “sick”. I am digusted by some of these post. Yes, I know she asked for the advice, but do you think you could find it in your hearts to be kinder? And yes, her hubby needs help, but he has to be the one to want the help. So does she just walk away from 13 years of marriage? Sweetheart, keep praying. Try adoration and saying the rosary at least once a day. Make God #1 in your life and God will come through.

I have not experienced anyone on this board being unkind at all. People are giving what they have experienced in their own lives. People are also sharing an OBJECTIVE POV on what can be done. Grounds for annulment are subject to the tribunal and not to the subjective POV of people. They gather the information from a number of people and tie it all together. My post has it that if a person has already had an annulment, caution needs to be taken when marrying again as far as the Church goes. What was her reason for the first annulment? Maybe the priest knows this. We haven’t got all the picture here. Also, kindness doesn’t necessarily mean patting someone on the back and say that everything will be okay. This is sentimentality and not agape love. Jesus never had any qualms in reprobating the disciples, Pharisees, or any sinner for that matter. I am not saying she is a sinner by this, I am just saying that people give what they can give without losing the sight that she is most loved by any of us. There is no unkindness on this board. This is just a projection on your part. We all realize that she is suffering immensely. She asked a question and, I can say on my part, I tried to give the best that I had. I also believe this from the others.

My father was an abusive alcoholic with much bloodshed and poverty. I can also say he was the most sensitive man I had ever met (BTW most alcoholics are very sensitive, that is why they drink). I cannot justify his actions but that doesn’t take away the fact that I loved him dearly and was by side all my life. I am the oldest and have been subject to much abuse myself. Alcohol KILLS families but mainly it is the children that end up missing something in their lives because of it. It is a gap that only God can fill.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[puppylove]

darcee:

As I said in the first two words in my post “I have”. But I would point out that going through an annulment in no way makes you an expert on the subject. I am sure you are well versed on the issues surrounding YOUR annulment, but it is obvious from the above that you do not understand Cannon law in general on this point.

Any impediment to the exercise of freewill in the accepting of the marriage vows CAN be grounds for an annulment. A person would not have to be drunk at the time of the wedding. Alcoholism is considered a mental disease and a spritual issue and as such undermines the sufferer’s capability to make serious sacramental commitments.

Does that mean that in every case alcoholism will mean an annulment? No. Does it mean that anyone who’s spouse is an alcoholic can receive a decree of nullity? Again No.

It is unlikely that if a spouse changed their mind on anything (even children) AFTER the marriage vows are said that an annulment could be obtained, annulments only pertain to the circumstances that are in effect at the time of the wedding… later conditions are usually not grounds for an annulment unless they are indicators of problems that existed at the time of the marriage.

But something occurring AT THE TIME of the vows, such as struggling with a disease like alcoholism, could very well be grounds for a later annulment and the priest is wise to advise caution in proceeding with the sacrament.

-D

OKAY Darcee, YOUR THE EXPERT, and in your opinion, I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT! I went through 2 1/2 years of my life answering 40 tough questions about my first marraige, counseling with my priest, counseling with 2 separate advocates, going before 2 judges and two seminarians (tribunal), and then waiting for the Diocese of New Orleans to review my case, and then taking 1 1/2 years after the anullments were approved to make the decision to convalidate my present marriage, but I don’t know what I’m talking about, because apparently I don’t know Canon Law. Maybe your diocese interputs Canon Law differently than mine or maybe my diocese is harder when giving anullments. But I know what I’ve been told and all the above are things are definitely what I’ve been told. So like it or not, after going through the process, I don’t consider myself an expert, but well versed in the subject.

Good Luck and God Bless you Supplex in your journey to have your marriage convalidated. My prayers will remain with you.

 

[PKK]

I would never advocate divorce, seperation for a time maybe, prayer most definitely. However, in all actuality, the priest in good consience cannot perform a sacramental marriage. Addiction of any kind especially when recognized, yet unrepentant and unwilling to change, is grounds for the marriage not to work out in the long run.(wether it can be annulled or not). A priest should never perform a sacramental marriage when indications show that the marriage has a good posibility of failure whether in one year or twenty. Now if he would show through good faith that he intends on getting the help the priest recommended (AA), then there is a good posibility that the marriage would work. The priest’s first and formost job is to make sure that the marriage will work for ever until death do you part. That is the least we should expect when we get married as well.

 

[puppylove]

Shoshana:

I have not experienced anyone on this board being unkind at all. myself.

rfk told her that she is sick and you don’t think that was unkind. She didn’t ask for that!!!

 

[darcee]

puppylove:

OKAY Darcee, YOUR THE EXPERT, and in your opinion, I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT! I went through 2 1/2 years of my life answering 40 tough questions about my first marraige, counseling with my priest, counseling with 2 separate advocates, going before 2 judges and two seminarians (tribunal), and then waiting for the Diocese of New Orleans to review my case, and then taking 1 1/2 years after the anullments were approved to make the decision to convalidate my present marriage, but I don’t know what I’m talking about, because apparently I don’t know Canon Law. Maybe your diocese interputs Canon Law differently than mine or maybe my diocese is harder when giving anullments. But I know what I’ve been told and all the above are things are definitely what I’ve been told. So like it or not, after going through the process, I don’t consider myself an expert, but well versed in the subject.

Good Luck and God Bless you Supplex in your journey to have your marriage convalidated. My prayers will remain with you.

I hope you are not getting as hostile about this as your “caps” seem to indicate.

As I said before you are most likely well versed in the issues surrounding your annulment but that doesn’t mean you are an expert on annulments in general. You shouldn’t be giving specific advice about what does and does not constitute grounds for an annulment unless you know the following: Cannon law on marriage and annulments, the practices of the Diocese of the person in question and the situation of the person in question. Are going to take offense because someone calls you on this?

I would hesitate to say that your dioceses or my diocese grant annulments more easily.

-D

 

[Shoshana]

puppylove:

OKAY Darcee, YOUR THE EXPERT, and in your opinion, I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT! I went through 2 1/2 years of my life answering 40 tough questions about my first marraige, counseling with my priest, counseling with 2 separate advocates, going before 2 judges and two seminarians (tribunal), and then waiting for the Diocese of New Orleans to review my case, and then taking 1 1/2 years after the anullments were approved to make the decision to convalidate my present marriage, but I don’t know what I’m talking about, because apparently I don’t know Canon Law. Maybe your diocese interputs Canon Law differently than mine or maybe my diocese is harder when giving anullments. But I know what I’ve been told and all the above are things are definitely what I’ve been told. So like it or not, after going through the process,
I don’t consider myself an expert, but well versed in the subjectGood Luck and God Bless you Supplex in your journey to have your marriage convalidated. My prayers will remain with you.

Now, now puppylove, be kind! You may have goen through your own annulment and you may have experience but that doesn’t necessarily make you well-versed. Every annulment is unique. I repeat, the priest must have a reason for his refusal. We do not know the reason for her first annulment. Things could hinge on htat. Have you thought of that? Have you thought that there could a pattern being set here? Before ranting, take the word of the priest who is the spiritual father of that parish. I admire him for his stand even if it is painful. Many more priests are doing this…being ‘nice’ does not get one into heaven.

My prayers are also with you and your pain, Supplex, may the Holy Spirit guide you in what to do. Our Lady would be an essential help here. Search from the heart the will of God and you will receive an answer. Jumping to another priest is easy to do and we all know that priests are not all in unity. Liberal priests will do anything anywhere to please anybody…

Blessings,
Shoshnaa

 

[redkim]

puppylove:

rfk told her that she is sick and you don’t think that was unkind. She didn’t ask for that!!!

Nope. RFK was being blunt, but not unkind. He was actually speaking the truth. He did it out of love and compassion, not unkindness.

 

[Shoshana]

redkim:

Nope. RFK was being blunt, but not unkind. He was actually speaking the truth. He did it out of love and compassion, not unkindness.

Ditto. People have a perverted sense what compassion, kindness and love has. Maybe it comes from a dysfunctional way of life. I also realize this existed in my own life until I made many retreats on the second- generation alcoholoc family syndrome. I am not an alcoholic but I was broken. I was granted many healings by the lord and others, but first of all, one must admit to the sickness. Once that happens, one is more free. Freedom comes from facing oneself and claiming it, then giving it to the Lord. There is no knowledge of God without knowledge of oneself.

Blessings,
Shoshana