My pastor won't marry us

[puppylove]

Okay, I’ll level with you guys and be completely honest. I’m an alcoholic, a child of an alcoholic, the former wife of an alcoholic, and if my priest would have denied me my marriage in the church, I would not be where I am today in the Catholic church. Who on this post will admit to being an alcoholic (rfk)??? Now you know why I am so passionate about this subject. Now that my dirty laundry is aired, to an alcoholic and a co-dependent (wife and/or hubby) of an alcoholic, telling someone they are sick, imo, is not very nice. They may get angry, feeling alone, that no one understands and go the other way. I confidently feel well versed in the subject of anullment enough to give my opinions because this is only a forum, not canon law court, where people seek out for help. Darcee, I got upset because every comment I made, you were turning my words into something more than I was saying and it made me very upset and yes, the human emotion of anger, not hostility. All I said was for her to get a second opinion, in a round about way because she could be lost to the church. Haven’t you noticed that the church is dwindling in parishioners? Out of four children from my parent’s flock, two of us attend weekly and my parents are very involved parishioners. Alcoholics are not always mean, some are just as nice as they can be, some are sloppy, some are ugly, some are beautiful, but the bottom line is that alcoholics are people too just like you. Everybody deserves a chance and I agree that Supplex’s hubby should get help, but what about her faith in the meantime? I only wanted to show her kindness, love and compassion because I’ve been there.

 

[redkim]

Shoshana:

Ditto. People have a perverted sense what compassion, kindness and love has. Maybe it comes from a dysfunctional way of life. I also realize this existed in my own life until I made many retreats on the second- generation alcoholoc family syndrome. I am not an alcoholic but I was broken. I was granted many healings by the lord and others, but first of all, one must admit to the sickness. Once that happens, one is more free. Freedom comes from facing oneself and claiming it, then giving it to the Lord. There is no knowledge of God without knowledge of oneself.

Blessings,
Shoshana

Yep. Same here. Mom was an alcoholic. There’s nothing shameful in being sick. But there’s a whole lotta shame in not getting help for it when help is so readily available.
And I like what you said before about the difference between sentimentality and agape love. There is a unique difference between the two.

 

[darcee]

Honestly, it was not my intention to twist your words. I think if you read back over what I said without the emotional charge you have on this topic you will probably see that.

Everyone does deserve a chance and it seems to me that Supplex’s priest is giving her exactly that chance… the best chance at having a truly sacramental marriage. If her DH refuses counselling and the priest were to marry her anyway what then with her faith? Is it not better for the church to call us to a higher state and expect us to be actually striving for it before letting ourselves take on vows and commitments?

-D

 

[redkim]

Shoshana:

Ditto. People have a perverted sense what compassion, kindness and love has. Maybe it comes from a dysfunctional way of life. I also realize this existed in my own life until I made many retreats on the second- generation alcoholoc family syndrome. I am not an alcoholic but I was broken. I was granted many healings by the lord and others, but first of all, one must admit to the sickness. Once that happens, one is more free. Freedom comes from facing oneself and claiming it, then giving it to the Lord. There is no knowledge of God without knowledge of oneself.

Blessings,
Shoshana

Yep. Same here. Mom was an alcoholic. There’s nothing shameful in being sick. But there’s a whole lotta shame in not getting help for it when help is so readily available.
And I like what you said before about the difference between sentimentality and agape love. There is a unique difference between the two.

 

[puppylove]

darcee:

Honestly, it was not my intention to twist your words. I think if you read back over what I said without the emotional charge you have on this topic you will probably see that.

Everyone does deserve a chance and it seems to me that Supplex’s priest is giving her exactly that chance… the best chance at having a truly sacramental marriage. If her DH refuses counselling and the priest were to marry her anyway what then with her faith? Is it not better for the church to call us to a higher state and expect us to be actually striving for it before letting ourselves take on vows and commitments?

-D

I absolutely see your point, but do you see mine?

 

[darcee]

Yes I see it, I just don’t agree with it.

-D

 

[felra]

puppylove:

Okay, I’ll level with you guys and be completely honest. I’m an alcoholic, a child of an alcoholic, the former wife of an alcoholic, and if my priest would have denied me my marriage in the church, I would not be where I am today in the Catholic church. Who on this post will admit to being an alcoholic (rfk)??? Now you know why I am so passionate about this subject. Now that my dirty laundry is aired, to an alcoholic and a co-dependent (wife and/or hubby) of an alcoholic, telling someone they are sick, imo, is not very nice. They may get angry, feeling alone, that no one understands and go the other way. I confidently feel well versed in the subject of anullment enough to give my opinions because this is only a forum, not canon law court, where people seek out for help. Darcee, I got upset because every comment I made, you were turning my words into something more than I was saying and it made me very upset and yes, the human emotion of anger, not hostility. All I said was for her to get a second opinion, in a round about way because she could be lost to the church. Haven’t you noticed that the church is dwindling in parishioners? Out of four children from my parent’s flock, two of us attend weekly and my parents are very involved parishioners. Alcoholics are not always mean, some are just as nice as they can be, some are sloppy, some are ugly, some are beautiful, but the bottom line is that alcoholics are people too just like you. Everybody deserves a chance and I agree that Supplex’s hubby should get help, but what about her faith in the meantime? I only wanted to show her kindness, love and compassion because I’ve been there.

Yep, register me too as an ACOA if you will, my Father was an alcoholic from a family of “functional” alcoholics, a truely sensitive person to boot, and Mom was a helpless codependent…this served to ignite in me a passion for the Truth given some of the distorted reality that I grew up in. In my cradle Catholic reconversion experience I came to find the the Truth was Jesus Christ incarnated and present in the Church…with this said, I believe in speakly the truth in love, talking plainly, labelling problems and sin as they are. Not everyone has a stomach for this, but for me this sifts out the wheat from the chaff and dispells darkness. And really, when talking about enetring into a sacramental marriage, why would anyone want anything less than the best, the best start and basis for entering a lifelong commitment.

 

[Shoshana]

puppylove:

Okay, I’ll level with you guys and be completely honest. I’m an alcoholic, a child of an alcoholic, the former wife of an alcoholic, and if my priest would have denied me my marriage in the church, I would not be where I am today in the Catholic church. Who on this post will admit to being an alcoholic (rfk)??? Now you know why I am so passionate about this subject. Now that my dirty laundry is aired, to an alcoholic and a co-dependent (wife and/or hubby) of an alcoholic, telling someone they are sick, imo, is not very nice. They may get angry, feeling alone, that no one understands and go the other way. I confidently feel well versed in the subject of anullment enough to give my opinions because this is only a forum, not canon law court, where people seek out for help. Darcee, I got upset because every comment I made, you were turning my words into something more than I was saying and it made me very upset and yes, the human emotion of anger, not hostility. All I said was for her to get a second opinion, in a round about way because she could be lost to the church. Haven’t you noticed that the church is dwindling in parishioners? Out of four children from my parent’s flock, two of us attend weekly and my parents are very involved parishioners. Alcoholics are not always mean, some are just as nice as they can be, some are sloppy, some are ugly, some are beautiful, but the bottom line is that alcoholics are people too just like you. Everybody deserves a chance and I agree that Supplex’s hubby should get help, but what about her faith in the meantime? I only wanted to show her kindness, love and compassion because I’ve been there.

Puppylove,

I am not surprised you come from such a family. Your emotional reaction dictates this. You needn’t have even stated this as it was so obvious. Many people have responded on this thread from a background of alcoholism. It is not a pretty picture. Alcohol is alcohol. It destroys families, whether the alcoholics are nice and loving at times, notheless the illness is there. Anybody affirming this niceness is just as ill. Putting up with it is just as ill. Excusing it is just as ill. Alcoholics need help in ways that the spouse cannot do this. The spouse also needs help in realizing that her/his behavior is part of the problem. Any child involved will have the same destructive behaviors.

I also believe in honesty and truth. Especially Truth. I try not to cloud this with emotionalism…otherwise it is a perverted sense of truth and love. This gets carried in other relationships. And the beat goes on…

Be free, puppyloce of your way of thinking. It is the only thing that will give you peace. And see things a little more objectively. Otherwise you will project your frustration onto everything and everybody. I also will pray for you.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[supplex]

Joe Kelley:

Is the priest refusing, or has the Tribunal put a hold on remarriage for him. I know of a local case where someone obtained Decrees of Nullity because alcoholism prevented them from giving full consent to the prior marriages. However the Tribunal put a hold on remarriage until the person could demonstrate the ability to give full consent, i.e. was sober.

Thank you, Joe Kelley. I neglected to mention that my pastor is the HEAD of our diocesan tribunal. He has never said the tribunal put a hold on remarriage, he presents it as his own. However, I did not know that tribunals do this and it’s helpful to know. My first marriage was annulled after 2 years of marriage because my first husband was a drug addict, womanizer and walked out on me. (I was young, miserable and clueless.)

I’ve had years of therapy for my co-dependent behaviors, as well as years of Al-Anon before I even re-married. Like someone said, ‘you can’t make the choice for them.’ If my husband were physically abusive, I would not have married him. We were in marriage counseling for 2 years and his alcohol use was never addressed, altho it was mentioned.

You can always consider divorce when your spouse has a drinking problem. You can also divorce when they have a gambling addiction, sex addiction, or are physically abusive, etc. Divorce can answer any of those problems. But I have had to ask myself, Is that what God wants? Tough question for me. I do have my son to consider and he loves his dad. I love his dad, too! I do want him to stop drinking - but, again, I can’t make that choice for him. We have our trials, but basically, we are a happy family and, by God’s grace, share loving, supportive extended families as well. It doesn’t make sense to me to throw all that away. Like throwing out the baby with the bath water. In spite of the alcohol, we do have a commitment to this marriage.

 

[supplex]

rfk:

You pastor is wise and holy. Listen to him!

Look, you each already have one marriage annulled, so I appreciate the pastor being careful about making sure this marriage is valid before he blesses it.

Classic alcoholic statements. Also classic “wife-of-alcoholic” statemements.

If we were talking face-to-face, I’d put in all the usual wishy-washy caveats about “alcoholic symptoms”, “not a diagnosis, but…”, etc.

But instead, I’ll simply be blunt and cut to the chase. After sitting in AA meetings for over 20 years, I’ve heard it again and again and again and again – literally thousands of times. Your husband is a drunk. Period. He needs to go to AA. He is very sick, not the least of which is spiritual sickness. You need to go to Al-Anon. Period. You are married to an alcoholic. You are also very sick, not the least of which is spiritual sickness, even though you may not know it.

Neither one of you is capable of even understanding the true nature of sacramental vows while you are enmeshed in addiction. I do not believe a Catholic marriage should take place until your husband has a year of sobriety with regular AA meetings and you have had a year of Al-Anon. AA recommends “no major decisions in the first year” for very good reason – it reflects 70 years of wisdom in dealing with drunks.

I have just said a prayer for you. I am not trying to be harsh, but simply tell you the truth. The truth that reflects the experience of many years.

For what it is worth, this is from an appendix to the book Alcoholics Anonymous:

Start with calling your local Al-Anon telephone number right now. I literally mean stop browsing the forum right now and pick up the telephone. God bless you.

I am listening to my pastor and we are very close. I love him dearly and he knows me. I trust his judgement - which is why my husband and I have waited the past 5 years to have our marriage blessed. I have worked in our parish for years and he also depends on my knowledge and (name removed by moderator)ut. Since he has asked me to mentor young women in the parish who are preparing for marriage, I don’t think he really considers me “sick.”

The AA 12 step program is based on the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola. They can be grace-filled exercises for everyone. I pray that my husband will some day use them! Why should I make excuses for his alcohol-induced behaviour? There is no excuse. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage - mine is no exception. And I have to admit, I have friends and family in worse marriages (physical abuse, jobless by choice, child abuse, etc.) - and sober as a judge. I truly count my blessings.

 

[puppylove]

Shoshana:

Puppylove,

I am not surprised you come from such a family. Your emotional reaction dictates this. You needn’t have even stated this as it was so obvious. Many people have responded on this thread from a background of alcoholism. It is not a pretty picture. Alcohol is alcohol. It destroys families, whether the alcoholics are nice and loving at times, notheless the illness is there. Anybody affirming this niceness is just as ill. Putting up with it is just as ill. Excusing it is just as ill. Alcoholics need help in ways that the spouse cannot do this. The spouse also needs help in realizing that her/his behavior is part of the problem. Any child involved will have the same destructive behaviors.

I also believe in honesty and truth. Especially Truth. I try not to cloud this with emotionalism…otherwise it is a perverted sense of truth and love. This gets carried in other relationships. And the beat goes on…

Be free, puppyloce of your way of thinking. It is the only thing that will give you peace. And see things a little more objectively. Otherwise you will project your frustration onto everything and everybody. I also will pray for you.

Blessings,
Shoshana

Thanks for your blessings, Puppy

 

[rfk]

supplex:

I’ve had years of therapy for my co-dependent behaviors, as well as years of Al-Anon before I even re-married.

Good, then you know. I also know how hard it is. I’ll continue to pray for your family.

supplex:

You can always consider divorce … I do have my son to consider and he loves his dad.

Just in case it wasn’t clear, I never suggested divorce. In fact, I applaud your effort to keep your family intact. Let’s hope your husband can find recovery.

puppylove:

rfk told her that she is sick and you don’t think that was unkind. She didn’t ask for that!!!

Would you prefer the word, “ill”. If you want to get hung up on parsing which word is the best, that’s your prerogative. But you can ask any Al-Anon, or go to their website, and you will find a pretty uniform conclusion that Alcoholism is a family disease that affects everyone in the family.

She followed up by stating she had “years of therapy and Al-Anon”, so I think she understood what I said in the sense that it was meant.

 

[puppylove]

rfk:

Would you prefer the word, “ill”. If you want to get hung up on parsing which word is the best, that’s your prerogative. But you can ask any Al-Anon, or go to their website, and you will find a pretty uniform conclusion that Alcoholism is a family disease that affects everyone in the family.

Read again, I really don’t think she liked you using the word “sick”.

 

[puppylove]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

Puppylove,

I am not surprised you come from such a family. Your emotional reaction dictates this. You needn’t have even stated this as it was so obvious. Many people have responded on this thread from a background of alcoholism. It is not a pretty picture. Alcohol …
**
*And what kinds of family do you come from? Does your emotional reaction in this forum dictate your personality? You need not state your coldness and heartlessness, for it is very obvious. May God forgive you for being so remorseless and cruel to me in this post. *
**
*My whole intention was to give Supplex suport, love and compassion and it has turned in to a “devil” fight. *
**
Puppy

 

[Thomas2]

I just jumped into this thread and it seems to me that there are too many unanswered questions for an answer here. The suggestion to seek out the ministry of another priest seems like a very good idea. As for the pastor in question, he seems to be confused about a few things himself. I understand your hesitation to question his judgement, but days like these - shoot quite a few of us have the same doubts.

Thomas2

 

[CD4]

**I have to say that I agree with Bob. My husband is a recovering alcoholic. He has not had a drink for about sixteen years now, and while he no longer attends AA meetings, he freely admits that they saved his life. We did ninety and ninety together (that’s ninety meetings in ninety days), and I atttended as many Al-Anon meetings as I could. **

**I am, of course, reading between the lines. Neither you or your husband really want to admit the extent of his drinking problem and the effect it has had on your marriage. **

It is good that he admits to being verbally abusive, but to then say that he really doesn’t want to stop drinking “100%”, is a contradiction.

**Most wives of active alcoholics are what we call enablers…We keep making excuses for our husband’s drinking…Thinking that the situation will improve, or that it really isn’t that bad after all. The very fact that you are writing to us tell me that it is, indeed, that bad. **

**Your pastor is a wise man…He knows firsthand what you guys are facing, and knows that until you get a handle on this “problem” you are not capable of making a valid decision…In fact, if you were applying for an annulment of your present marriage, your husband’s drinking would be “grounds”…He would be judged not capable of making a proper committment, and thus your marriage would not be sacramental. **

**Please consider going to Al-Anon, even if your husbnd does not attend AA. You will learn a lot about yourself and your relationship with your husband. Please encourage him to give AA a try. **

**Of course the first thing your husband has to do is to admit that he is an alcoholic…That alcohol has power over him…Once he has done that, he is ready for help. AA, and the wonderful people you will find there will help you. They will listen to your story as many times as you need to tell it, and support you during your journey. **

**I will keep you guys in my prayers. I know where you are, because I’ve been there. My DH was never abusive, physically or verbally, and never missed a day of work, but he WAS and still IS an alcoholic…Remembers being drunk at nine years old, because drinking was part of what his family did…I knew our family was different, but because of a deep seated need to deny the serverity of our problem, I continued to live in denial until my husband himself announced that he was an alcoholic, and needed help. **

I know you and your husband are sincere in wanting to be married “in the Church”, but perhaps it would be better to wait and get some real help for your problem. I think your pastor will be a real support for you both.

 

[felra]

puppylove:

Originally Posted by Shoshana

*And what kinds of family do you come from? Does your emotional reaction in this forum dictate your personality? You need not state your coldness and heartlessness, for it is very obvious. May God forgive you for being so remorseless and cruel to me in this post. *

*My whole intention was to give Supplex suport, love and compassion and it has turned in to a “devil” fight. *

Puppy

Maybe take a breather from this thread. Sounds like you are taking all this too personally. Perhaps some PM to the concerned parties, otherwise the Moderators will delete the thread!

 

[Thomas2]

P.S. About that 12 step recovery plan…not everyone who has a problem with alcohol needs a tough recovery program. A little yeast leavens a whole loaf and this poor family has obvisouly been getting yanked around enough and could fall even further away from the faith if subjected to forced recovery the AA way.Thomas2

 

[darcee]

*And what kinds of family do you come from? Does your emotional reaction in this forum dictate your personality? You need not state your coldness and heartlessness, for it is very obvious. May God forgive you for being so remorseless and cruel to me in this post. *

*My whole intention was to give Supplex suport, love and compassion and it has turned in to a “devil” fight. *

Puppy

You know… it might be a good idea to step back and not take things so personally… You responded to that post twice. Once with thanks and once with vitriol. Is it possible this whole subject is just to personal to you for you to respond without being overly emotional?

-D

 

[puppylove]

darcee:

You know… it might be a good idea to step back and not take things so personally… You responded to that post twice. Once with thanks and once with vitriol. Is it possible this whole subject is just to personal to you for you to respond without being overly emotional?

-D

Darcee: When someone attacks me personally, yes I do take it personally, and I think you both owe me an apology.