My personal experience with once saved always saved

[Per_Crucem]

The reprobate have no assurance of election because they are not elect.

Unless they deceive themselves and draw comfort from the word and the sacraments even though it really doesn’t apply to them? In that case, how is the non-elect any different from the elect person? How do they determine the difference?

What hopelessly subjective codswollop.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Unless they deceive themselves and draw comfort from the word and the sacraments even though it really doesn’t apply to them? In that case, how is the non-elect any different from the elect person? How do they determine the difference?

What hopelessly subjective codswollop.

Lutherans and Catholics can unite in this area!!

 

[Per_Crucem]

Lutherans and Catholics can unite in this area!!

I’ve yet to find a sensical answer from a Calvinist on how they know, exactly, that Christ died for them. Usually, it involves “I feel…I think…I desire…etc.” So, despite how much they like to blahblahblah at Catholics about Catholics saving themselves, their doctrine is light years worse in the self-justification department.

 

[CarolNoel]

I was in an Anglican Evenagelical Church prior to being baptized as Catholic when I was 20 years old.
I was told all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you would go straight to heaven and that everyone else would go to Hell.
I was uncomfortable about this since I read the entire bible and that it’s clear that we need to actively turn away from sin and follow Jesus to get to heaven. We actually need to live good lives by doing good work and helping others.

It’s like it’s a trick of the devil that some Christians think that they can live sinful lives yet go straight to Heaven.
If that is the case then why are we tested? Why do we suffer?
Look at what the early matyrs had to endure but now they are Saints.
Who’s going to get to Heaven first, the person who was persecuted and killed for their faith or the person that when persecuted denied Jesus to save their life?

The bible says that the one who endures to the end will be saved.

I’m so happy God led me to his true church and I pray he leads others there too.

Wonderful how :thumbsup:you expressed this.

 

[CarolNoel]

“Surely if I’m super holy then I must be of the elect”. How right you are.

 

[andrewstx]

“I am the good shepherd. I lay down my life for the sheep. … Ghe works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
John 10:11,25-28

In other words, Jesus died for his sheep, and his sheep will hear his voice and follow him. Either you are a sheep of Jesus and he died for you - you were saved - or he did not die for you, you do not hear his voice because you are not his sheep, and you were not saved.

Ah yes the “p” in Calvinists ‘tulip’. my Calvinist step Father always said “it is easy to live as a Catholic and hard to die as a Catholic”. I think the opposite is true. It is difficult to die as a OSAS Protestant. All one needs to do is ‘git saved’ and sin to one content and still end up in Heaven.

BTW. Jesus died and rose for all humanity and no just a select few.

 

[dronald]

Protestant Church’s do not teach that someone should go about sinning after repentance.

 

[andrewstx]

Protestant Church’s do not teach that someone should go about sinning after repentance.

I did not say all Protestants. What I did say the Protestants only who teach OSAS or Perseverance.

And if they are OSAS it does not matter how much they sin, for they are ‘saved’ forever.

Unless you want to go down the road of "but were they really saved to begin with.**

 

[Jon_S_1]

Protestant Church’s do not teach that someone should go about sinning after repentance.

And yet there really is no consequence if they do, nor many calls about living holy lives. Too “works righteousness” for the general public.

It’s a good way to empty pews (and offering plates ) to preach a message that really calls one to do anything except “be a nice guy”.

I remember when they booted the pastor out of my Mega Church because “he was too old and they wanted a younger crowd”, the concern of the elders? How to get more people in the seats and more dollars in the plate. How to get a new generation to come.

Of course publicly, the pastor moved on to new opportunities (not yet found).

It was disgusting.

 

[dronald]

I did not say all Protestants. What I did say the Protestants only who teach OSAS or Perseverance.

And if they are OSAS it does not matter how much they sin, for they are ‘saved’ forever.

Unless you want to go down the road of "but were they really saved to begin with.**
Sin is bad in all Protestant Church’s, even the OSAS ones. A conclusion you may draw as a human being is that they will go about sinning because they believe they are saved, but Paul wrote heavily against this. And it’s simply not true anyways from their POV.
Jon S;11941883:

And yet there really is no consequence if they do, nor many calls about living holy lives. Too “works righteousness” for the general public.

It’s a good way to empty pews (and offering plates ) to preach a message that really calls one to do anything except “be a nice guy”.

I remember when they booted the pastor out of my Mega Church because “he was too old and they wanted a younger crowd”, the concern of the elders? How to get more people in the seats and more dollars in the plate. How to get a new generation to come.

Of course publicly, the pastor moved on to new opportunities (not yet found).

It was disgusting.

A lot of Church’s do a lot of disgusting things, yes.

 

[DAML72]

Sin is bad in all Protestant Church’s, even the OSAS ones. A conclusion you may draw as a human being is that they will go about sinning because they believe they are saved, but Paul wrote heavily against this. And it’s simply not true anyways from their POV.

A lot of Church’s do a lot of disgusting things, yes.

True - from my perspective, we’re going a little overboard with how much liberty is taken with this doctrine. Maybe there are newer churches where OSAS is taken very literally and used as an excuse for mortal sin, but it’s not like there is no concept of sin whatsoever in the mainline Calvinist churches. I come from the Reformed Church (RCA formerly Dutch Reformed Church) and prior to every communion it was incumbent upon the elders and the Pastor to examine whether there was anyone in the congregation in a state of sin that would make him or her unworthy to receive. And I don’t know why we went to Church every week if it was not to learn how to better align ourselves with Christ - to become holier. Most of my family members are faithful members of the Reformed or Christian Reformed church, and they are very conservative God-fearing Christians.

 

[Adamski]

Protestant Church’s do not teach that someone should go about sinning after repentance.

But you don’t really know what sin is because any Protestant that has a problem with a certain sin can just go “church shopping” to find a church that excepts their sin as not sinful

 

[Jon_S_1]

But you don’t really know what sin is because any Protestant that has a problem with a certain sin can just go “church shopping” to find a church that excepts their sin as not sinful

Yes and know.

I think all Protestants hold a bit of an idea that “whatever is civilly illegal” is sinful. That and adultery.

But the rest is pretty subjective.

The biggest area I saw this play out was remarriage. It was sort something that was rarely taught on and done with mixed feelings.

The new hot topic of course is gay marriage.

Sexual sins were always the area this idea of " sin but it’s ok I am saved" played out. That and the altar call where they said as much of course.

I remember my pastor in my pre marriage counseling telling me anything was fair game. Even sodomy if we were into it.

 

[mackbrislawn]

We teach a doctrine called perseverance. The elect, once called into a state of grace, will not lose their justification. We “make our election sure” (to ourselves" by continuing to grow in grace, particularly by the hearing of God’s word preached and the regular reception of Holy Communion.

Our assurance is ultimately based on the finished work of Christ. Unlike the RC who commits a mortal sin and then gets hit by a bus, we are sure that we are right with God because Jesus received the punishment for our sins at the cross. He paid the whole price and satisfied God’s just wrath against the elect.

I guess in this view one is never sure if you are saved or not, if you always have to make “our election sure” to ourselves. In this view one is always nagged by the question, have I grown enough in grace, have I heard enough of God’s word, etc.

Maybe it is true, the teaching that the elect will not lose their justification. But, then, what difference does it make, what good does this teaching do, if we have to constantly try to prove to ourselves that we are of the elect? It all comes out in the wash, as a practical matter, to be just the same as Catholic practice!

Either way: absence of works equals absence of salvation.

 

[mackbrislawn]

It has been in my experience that OSAS people don’t really know how it works, but they’re certain it’s true…

They believe that “Everyone who confesses, etc.” Is eternally secure; however, if they do fall away then they obviously never truly, truly meant it… Even if they did at the time.

I can’t wrap my head around certain Church’s insistence on this doctrine. I don’t know why some think it’s Biblical or beneficial, but in the end it’s similar to Catholic doctrine if you really think about it.

Catholics believe that one can lose one’s salvation, while OSAS people believe one can’t, but if it looks like you did then you were never truly “saved.” Either way the results are the same.

I agree. The results are the same, either way you cut it.

I’ve struggled, but have never understood OSAS, predestination, perseverance of the elect, and so on. I read the words of explanation, but the words don’t add up to anything. Mainly, because either way, the results are the same!

 

[Indifferently]

What hopelessly subjective codswollop.

I can hardly see the fruit of the Spirit in your post.

 

[Indifferently]

I guess in this view one is never sure if you are saved or not, if you always have to make “our election sure” to ourselves. In this view one is always nagged by the question, have I grown enough in grace, have I heard enough of God’s word, etc.

Maybe it is true, the teaching that the elect will not lose their justification. But, then, what difference does it make, what good does this teaching do, if we have to constantly try to prove to ourselves that we are of the elect? It all comes out in the wash, as a practical matter, to be just the same as Catholic practice!

Either way: absence of works equals absence of salvation.

Works come as the fruit of a true and lively faith, but they have absolutely no part in justification. Rom. 5 makes this clear.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Works come as the fruit of a true and lively faith, but they have absolutely no part in justification. Rom. 5 makes this clear.

They play no part in how we are allowed to go to heaven (justification) but they are critical in our salvation. Our acceptance of his gift to us. Particularly the work of turning from sin and repenting of wrong doing.

 

[Indifferently]

Ah yes the “p” in Calvinists ‘tulip’. my Calvinist step Father always said “it is easy to live as a Catholic and hard to die as a Catholic”. I think the opposite is true. It is difficult to die as a OSAS Protestant. All one needs to do is ‘git saved’ and sin to one content and still end up in Heaven.

BTW. Jesus died and rose for all humanity and no just a select few.

Jesus was punished for the sins of people who will end up in hell?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jesus was punished for the sins of people who will end up in hell?

Absolutely.

He took on the sins of the whole world. Everyone. He offers his gift of salvation to everyone.

That is true love. Sacrifice for someone you know will reject you anyway.

John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!’"

John 3:16, “For God so loved **the world, ** that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.’"

1 Tim. 4:10, “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, **who is the Savior of all men, ** especially of believers.”

1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."