My personal experience with once saved always saved

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Jon_S said:
Absolutely.

He took on the sins of the whole world. Everyone. He offers his gift of salvation to everyone.

That is true love. Sacrifice for someone you know will reject you anyway.
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So Jesus intended to die only to offer salvation to all, not to actually bring about effective salvation for anyone? So the real “salvation” is when we apply Jesus’s death to ourselves? In that case, who saves - Jesus or us? If Jesus is the saviour of the elect only, his cross was one hundred per cent effective. If Jesus died only to offer salvation to everybody, and we have to do our bit to get there, then he’s not a saviour at all.
 
Indifferently said:
So Jesus intended to die only to offer salvation to all, not to actually bring about effective salvation for anyone? So the real “salvation” is when we apply Jesus’s death to ourselves? In that case, who saves - Jesus or us? If Jesus is the saviour of the elect only, his cross was one hundred per cent effective. If Jesus died only to offer salvation to everybody, and we have to do our bit to get there, then he’s not a saviour at all.
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How do you figure?

All I have to do is repent and believe in him. Follow him on faith.

Without Jesus. There is zero way for us to enter heaven. Zero ways for us to be saved.

He paid the price for our guaranteed damnation.

He did it all. He just asks us to follow him.

Have you ever read the gospels? He talks entirely about being true disciples, following him, etc…
 
Jon_S said:
How do you figure?

All I have to do is repent and believe in him. Follow him on faith.

Without Jesus. There is zero way for us to enter heaven. Zero ways for us to be saved.

He paid the price for our guaranteed damnation.

He did it all. He just asks us to follow him.

Have you ever read the gospels? He talks entirely about being true disciples, following him, etc…
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But our following him is part of his gift, not the one work that we have to do ourselves since Jesus did it all except apply his benefits to us directly. Those who receive the gift of faith are saved. Not all do.
 
Indifferently said:
But our following him is part of his gift, not the one work that we have to do ourselves since Jesus did it all except apply his benefits to us directly. Those who receive the gift of faith are saved. Not all do.
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So Jesus hand picked who he wants to be saved.

Did he decide this by race , gender, hair color ?

You realize this is what you are saying right. That God created people with the mindset that they will be damned.

I believe he created everyone with a nature that seeks God and an inclination toward faith. Those that pursue that can be saved. Those that reject it are not. Because if their choice not God’s
 
Indifferently said:
I can hardly see the fruit of the Spirit in your post.
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This from the one who has spent the last 3 or 4 posts accusing Catholics of ignoring Christ’s cross, saving themselves by works, yada yada.

As for what I said to you, St. Paul had much worse to say about false doctine…which is what the Calvinist teaching on perseverance and Christ’s atonement being “limited” is, to be frank.

How do you know Christ died for you, Indifferently?
 
Jon_S said:
So Jesus hand picked who he wants to be saved.

Did he decide this by race , gender, hair color ?
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“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb” (Rev. 7:9)

God chooses from every tribe and nation, every people. That is what is meant when we say that Christ is the Saviour of the whole world.
You realize this is what you are saying right. That God created people with the mindset that they will be damned.
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Rom. 9:18 tells us, after giving the examples of God hardening the heart of Pharaoh and choosing Jacob over Esau, that God “has mercy on whomever he wills and hardens whomever he wills”. It is God’s sovereign choose who receives mercy and who receives justice.
I believe he created everyone with a nature that seeks God and an inclination toward faith.
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“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
(Rom. 3:10b-12)

No one seeks God. The apostle says this in explaining the condition of sin (as a result of the fall) that both Jew and Gentile find themselves in. None seek God.
 
Indifferently said:
Rom. 9:18 tells us, after giving the examples of God hardening the heart of Pharaoh and choosing Jacob over Esau, that God “has mercy on whomever he wills and hardens whomever he wills”. It is God’s sovereign choice who receives mercy and who receives justice.
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Are we talking about Jesus, or Megatron?
 
Indifferently said:
Would you care to give an alternative exegesis of Romans 9?
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See St. John Chrysostom, Augustine, Ambrose, Gregory the Great and the vast swath of church history up until the concept of double predestination was introduced out of scholastic necessity in the middle ages.
 
PRmerger said:
This calls to mind the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes.

He was walking around buck nekkid, but was immensely happy and satisfied with himself.

But he was following a lie. His beliefs were not grounded in truth.

Similarly, just because someone is strengthened in their faith through a belief ought not be a factor in promoting that belief or encouraging one to continue in this false belief.

Very Catholic, this!

This is a false assurance that could be fatal, unfortunately, to their soul.

Perhaps. But then they too are following a false belief in that their own weaknesses and failings could not be strengthened by the grace of God through the Holy Sacraments.
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PRmerger–I’ll reply to this when the thread is back on track.
 
PRmerger said:
It would work just as well if you answered right now. 🙂
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Not for me–I’d feel as if I’m interrupting a conversation…Or, really, I wish this thread would have stayed on the OP’s subject and gone to another thread to discuss Calvinism.
 
Indifferently said:
Revelation 3:20 is not an evangelistic text. The apostle John is writing to a church at Laodicea which has been ignorant to the commands of Christ. He is not talking to unbelievers. Jesus does not stand at the door and knock on unbelievers’ hearts. The pattern of evangelism in Acts is that the gospel story is told, and those who repent and believe it (the elect) are then formally initiated by baptism, with their children (also belonging to the covenant) also being baptized.

There are many who hear the gospel and are not “cut to the heart” by it, these people are not elect. See also the sower parable - only God knows what type of soil he has predestined us to be, and the elect have assurance through the Word and sacraments.

The reprobate have no assurance of election because they are not elect.
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How does one become of the elect? Are you born that way or at some point in your life become elect? That is, when does God predestine us to be of the right type of soil?

What if you are of the right type of soil but never hear the Word? I mean, it took a number of centuries for the gospel to be brought to deepest Africa, not to mention the Americas. I take it that God predestined none of the elect to be born there.
 
Indifferently said:
Would you care to give an alternative exegesis of Romans 9?
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Romans 2

12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

And again the fact that there is zero evidence of this double predestination before Calvin
 
Indifferently said:
Works come as the fruit of a true and lively faith, but they have absolutely no part in justification. Rom. 5 makes this clear.
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That’s right, works have no part in justification. I did not say that.

But, the point is, if works come as the fruit of a true and lively faith, and there are no works, no fruit, then that is indication of no saving faith, no salvation.

So, what I do say, however you look it at, it boils down to this: absence of works equals absence of salvation!
 
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