My personal experience with once saved always saved

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mackbrislawn said:
How does one become of the elect? Are you born that way or at some point in your life become elect? That is, when does God predestine us to be of the right type of soil?

What if you are of the right type of soil but never hear the Word? I mean, it took a number of centuries for the gospel to be brought to deepest Africa, not to mention the Americas. I take it that God predestined none of the elect to be born there.
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Eph. 1:4 - God knows his chosen people “before the foundation of the world”.

You cannot “become” elect. You were either chosen from before the foundation of the world or you were not. It would not be election if you could choose it yourself.

As for the “right type of soil” never hearing the word, you are stretching the parable beyond its limits. Although the apostle does make it clear (Rom. 10:12-15) that those who have not heard the gospel (and therefore have no opportunity to respond with faith) are not saved, it logically follows that they are not elect.
 
Indifferently said:
Eph. 1:4 - God knows his chosen people “before the foundation of the world”.

You cannot “become” elect. You were either chosen from before the foundation of the world or you were not. It would not be election if you could choose it yourself.

As for the “right type of soil” never hearing the word, you are stretching the parable beyond its limits. Although the apostle does make it clear (Rom. 10:12-15) that those who have not heard the gospel (and therefore have no opportunity to respond with faith) are not saved, it logically follows that they are not elect.
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Okay, God knows who is elect, but of course we ourselves do not.

I don’t know about any parable, I was just using the metaphor you were using about soil. I take it that the right type of soil applies to those who are already elect.

So, all those who are of the elect will hear the gospel. If they are not of the elect, they may or may not hear the gospel, but if they do, they will not respond?

God is clever, he knew that only certain peoples would be able to hear the gospel throughout the ages, so He only predestined the elect to be among those who were able to hear the gospel! For centuries none of the elect in the Americas nor many in Africa nor Siberia, but heavily concentrated in the Mediterranean, western Europe and North America.
 
Indifferently said:
Except of course the apostle himself.
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If that is what the apostle said we would see it espoused by those he wrote the letter to. These were letters written to real people.

It would be as if your father wrote you a special letter. You shared that letter with your kids and family and taught them what it meant and why he wrote it the way he did. Then your kids wrote and shared it with others.

Then I come along … Read the letter, and tell you that you have it all wrong and really means something else.

How crazy is that.
 
Indifferently said:
Eph. 1:4 - God knows his chosen people “before the foundation of the world”.

You cannot “become” elect. You were either chosen from before the foundation of the world or you were not. It would not be election if you could choose it yourself.

As for the “right type of soil” never hearing the word, you are stretching the parable beyond its limits. Although the apostle does make it clear (Rom. 10:12-15) that those who have not heard the gospel (and therefore have no opportunity to respond with faith) are not saved, it logically follows that they are not elect.
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So then there aren’t people from every tongue and tribe and nation. The Maya’s for example who disappeared before Christianity came to the new world.
 
mackbrislawn said:
So, all those who are of the elect will hear the gospel. If they are not of the elect, they may or may not hear the gospel, but if they do, they will not respond?
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Correct. The elect hear the gospel and respond with faith. But the Great Commission means we are bound as a church to take the gospel to all nations. God’s means of saving his chosen ones will not be frustrated by us, but we nevertheless are the instruments he chooses to do it through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Not for me–I’d feel as if I’m interrupting a conversation…Or, really, I wish this thread would have stayed on the OP’s subject and gone to another thread to discuss Calvinism.
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Well, then, suffice it to say that we can understand, just like the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes, that just because a belief makes us happy and good is not reason enough to endorse said belief.

It must be grounded in truth.

No one would encourage an adult to believe in Santa Claus, even if that belief made him happy and full of Christmas joy, enamored with the Spirit and excited to do good to all around him…why?

Because belief in Santa Claus is not grounded in reality.

Truth trumps everything. Even if something (i.e. OSAS) makes us feel good and holy. If it’s not true, then we ought not encourage folks to pursue that belief.
 
Indifferently said:
Correct. The elect hear the gospel and respond with faith. But the Great Commission means we are bound as a church to take the gospel to all nations. God’s means of saving his chosen ones will not be frustrated by us, but we nevertheless are the instruments he chooses to do it through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
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Okay. So the church must take the gospel everywhere because the church does not know where the elect will be, other than that the elect are not where the church does not take the gospel.

Now, is it possible that some of the non-elect will respond to the gospel? And accept Baptism and partake of the Lord’s Supper as it they were of the elect?
 
Adamski said:
Sadly I think a number of people at my non denominational church took their life because of this teaching. I tried to talk to the pastor about it and he got very angry
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Why do you say this? Why would people take their life for believing that?
 
My apologies if sidetracking but I finally have the time to come back to the thread and I wanted to respond to Indifferenlty and his reply to me. My understanding of Catholic theology is that we are created in love and God made us and said “it is good” - fundamentally we are created for love and are good and lovable. What has got in the way of our being able to respond to God’s love is sin. It is our sinfulness that Jesus came to rescue us from…

In Indifferently’s posts he’s describing us as worms (not a metaphor) and some are elect and some aren’t. There can be no freewill in Calvinism and God creates people knowing that they never have the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel in the manner that Indifferenly describes. They are created with no opportunity to respond to God and go to heaven. This is a theology that is not universal and for all people, it’s just for those in the right place at the right time.
 
Also, the child that I miscarried, is that child not one of the elect and not with God? All children miscarriaged, aborted or those who died too young to understand the Gospel or with mental retardation who will never read or understand the gospel, are NONE of them with God?
 
mackbrislawn said:
Okay. So the church must take the gospel everywhere because the church does not know where the elect will be, other than that the elect are not where the church does not take the gospel.

Now, is it possible that some of the non-elect will respond to the gospel? And accept Baptism and partake of the Lord’s Supper as it they were of the elect?
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Yes. The church, much like Israel, is a mixed community of true believers and those who merely belong to the covenant but are not elect. If by “respond to the gospel” you mean “respond with persevering faith” then yes only the elect will truly respond. However, there are others who will respond with apparent “faith” and go on to receive baptism and communion without really belonging to the invisible church at any time, and thus being condemned.
 
Kindness said:
Also, the child that I miscarried, is that child not one of the elect and not with God? All children miscarriaged, aborted or those who died too young to understand the Gospel or with mental retardation who will never read or understand the gospel, are NONE of them with God?
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2 Sam. 12:23 - David seems to be certain that his child who has died in infancy has gone to heaven, so we have a very strong confidence that the children of Christians who die in infancy go to be with the Lord until the consummation.

As for children outside God’s community, we simply trust in God’s grace and mercy that he does the right thing.
 
Indifferently said:
Yes. The church, much like Israel, is a mixed community of true believers and those who merely belong to the covenant but are not elect. If by “respond to the gospel” you mean “respond with persevering faith” then yes only the elect will truly respond. However, there are others who will respond with apparent “faith” and go on to receive baptism and communion without really belonging to the invisible church at any time, and thus being condemned.
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Interesting. Now, its there a way to tell them apart? Do they themselves know? Is it possible for one of the condemned to mistakenly think they are of the elect?
 
Indifferently said:
2 Sam. 12:23 - David seems to be certain that his child who has died in infancy has gone to heaven, so we have a very strong confidence that the children of Christians who die in infancy go to be with the Lord until the consummation.

As for children outside God’s community, we simply trust in God’s grace and mercy that he does the right thing.
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Uh, what is the right thing? That’s kind of left hanging. The right thing from our viewpoint or from God’s? Because if God has predestined that child from before the foundation of the world, God knew that child would not be able to hear the Gospel, and hence there would be no point in predestining it to be of the elect.

What is meant by God’s community? The gathering of the elect?
 
Indifferently said:
Correct. The elect hear the gospel and respond with faith. But the Great Commission means we are bound as a church to take the gospel to all nations. God’s means of saving his chosen ones will not be frustrated by us, but we nevertheless are the instruments he chooses to do it through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
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You realize there are hardcore Calvinist who refuse missions work right? The logical conclusion of Calvinism is it is pointless so they don’t do it.
 
Indifferently said:
Yes. The church, much like Israel, is a mixed community of true believers and those who merely belong to the covenant but are not elect. If by “respond to the gospel” you mean “respond with persevering faith” then yes only the elect will truly respond. However, there are others who will respond with apparent “faith” and go on to receive baptism and communion without really belonging to the invisible church at any time, and thus being condemned.
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And you are ok with this? You are ok coming to your death bed after a lifetime of faithful living wondering if it’s heaven or hell for you.

What a hopeless position. Completely contrary to the Bible and to the early church writings.
 
Indifferently said:
Yes. The church, much like Israel, is a mixed community of true believers and those who merely belong to the covenant but are not elect. If by “respond to the gospel” you mean “respond with persevering faith” then yes only the elect will truly respond. However, there are others who will respond with apparent “faith” and go on to receive baptism and communion without really belonging to the invisible church at any time, and thus being condemned.
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How do you know that you are elect, Indifferently? How do you know you’re not self deceived?
 
Kindness said:
Also, the child that I miscarried, is that child not one of the elect and not with God? All children miscarriaged, aborted or those who died too young to understand the Gospel or with mental retardation who will never read or understand the gospel, are NONE of them with God?
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Ahh…I am sorry for your loss, Kindess. You can have full confidence that your little one is in paradise, for Jesus assumed infanthood, too.
 
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