My personal experience with once saved always saved

[Adamski]

This thread has been derailed

 

[andrewstx]

This thread has been derailed

Agreed. Can we get back to the original topic or end the thread? This has become a sermon by a Calvinist.

 

[Per_Crucem]

This thread has been derailed

To some extent, due to the sermonizing. However, as andrewstx pointed out, since once saved always saved is a Calvinist doctrine (yes, they call it perseverance of the saints, but at its roots, OSAS is just a slightly different version thereof). As such, it is intrinsically linked with all of the other doctrines espoused by Reformed theology. If perseverance is false, so is most of the rest of the TULIP and vice versa.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Well, then, suffice it to say that we can understand, just like the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes, that just because a belief makes us happy and good is not reason enough to endorse said belief.

It must be grounded in truth.

No one would encourage an adult to believe in Santa Claus, even if that belief made him happy and full of Christmas joy, enamored with the Spirit and excited to do good to all around him…why?

Because belief in Santa Claus is not grounded in reality.

Truth trumps everything. Even if something (i.e. OSAS) makes us feel good and holy. If it’s not true, then we ought not encourage folks to pursue that belief.

PRmerger–I’d like to answer for myself. As I said, I’ll sit back and wait till the thread is back on track.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Agreed. Can we get back to the original topic or end the thread? This has become a sermon by a Calvinist.

I’d like to continue the discussion back on topic, rather than end the thread because of the derailment, which has been a multi-person effort!

 

[MacQ]

I’m not sure that your experience is the same for a lot of people. I have a relative of the OSAS variety who frequents the “non-denominational” denomination, who quite clearly told me she knows all of her immediate family are hell-bound, therefore she must make the most out of the time they have together until they are dead. I asked, incredulously, how she knew they were hell-bound, since that would require knowing their very soul and where they stand with God. She replied, quite non-emotionally, something to the effect of, well they aren’t believing such-and-such and they don’t care to study it further, they are more involved with day-to-day than spiritual concerns, etc. Then quoted some Bible verse justifying that position. It didn’t phase her. I told her clearly, I do not know who’s going to hell, and that it’s quite judgmental for her to state that she knows so; in addition,** it would destroy me mentally/emotionally/physically if I truly believed such a thing, and would not be able to function day-to-day**.

So true…I cannot fathom that the people who adhere to such things have ever lost someone they truly loved.

 

[MacQ]

True - from my perspective, we’re going a little overboard with how much liberty is taken with this doctrine. Maybe there are newer churches where OSAS is taken very literally and used as an excuse for mortal sin, but it’s not like there is no concept of sin whatsoever in the mainline Calvinist churches. I come from the Reformed Church (RCA formerly Dutch Reformed Church) and prior to every communion it was incumbent upon the elders and the Pastor to examine whether there was anyone in the congregation in a state of sin that would make him or her unworthy to receive. And I don’t know why we went to Church every week if it was not to learn how to better align ourselves with Christ - to become holier. Most of my family members are faithful members of the Reformed or Christian Reformed church, and they are very conservative God-fearing Christians.

Good points. I think it behooves us not to make assertions too broad here. As you say, there are wide variances.

 

[MacQ]

So Jesus intended to die only to offer salvation to all, not to actually bring about effective salvation for anyone? So the real “salvation” is when we apply Jesus’s death to ourselves? In that case, who saves - Jesus or us? If Jesus is the saviour of the elect only, his cross was one hundred per cent effective. If Jesus died only to offer salvation to everybody, and we have to do our bit to get there, then he’s not a saviour at all.

I have a real problem reading your posts about “the elect”.
Which is at the heart of much I’ve encountered among the OSAS folks that baffles and confounds me…
I don’t believe Christ’s blood wiped away my sins or made me pure or elect.
I believe his sacrifice made it possible for my death not to be eternal and final. Not just mine but everyone’s. But we have to cooperate with that gift.

I have encountered OSAS who opine that having declared their faith, nothing else is required…and oh by the way when their rapture comes, there won’t be any Jews, Muslims or gay people on the bus. I think they might be in for some surprises.

 

[Indifferently]

You realize there are hardcore Calvinist who refuse missions work right? The logical conclusion of Calvinism is it is pointless so they don’t do it.

These so-called hyper-Calvinists are not Calvinist at all. We have a clear command to do missions, and as God’s people are charged with the great privilege of taking his gospel into the world. God saves his chosen people, yes, but he chooses to do so with Christians who preach the gospel as his instruments. As his new creation, we not only are commanded (and thus must do so in obedience) to preach to all men (sow the seed with reckless abandon) but should feel, as God’s people whom he has given new hearts to love and serve him (Jer. 31:31-34) privileged to do so.

 

[Indifferently]

I don’t believe Christ’s blood wiped away my sins

Interesting. I wish more people of your view would have such openness.

 

[oneofmany]

I think this is the difference----

When someone like Billy Graham says the the crowd----“come down and accept the Lord as your Savior”

For Protestants, that is the end and they are assured of heaven.

For Catholics, that is the beginning and they need to keep striving until the end.

Even St. Paul said he was not assured of heaven and needed to keep striving to the last. If Paul was not certain how could I be certain.

 

[Indifferently]

I think this is the difference----

When someone like Billy Graham says the the crowd----“come down and accept the Lord as your Savior”

For Protestants, that is the end and they are assured of heaven.

For Catholics, that is the beginning and they need to keep striving until the end.

Even St. Paul said he was not assured of heaven and needed to keep striving to the last. If Paul was not certain how could I be certain.

Billy Graham’s theology is false. We do not “accept” Jesus. This is the problem with OSAS. It’s another form of self-salvation.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I think this is the difference----

When someone like Billy Graham says the the crowd----“come down and accept the Lord as your Savior”

For Protestants, that is the end and they are assured of heaven.

For Catholics, that is the beginning and they need to keep striving until the end.

Even St. Paul said he was not assured of heaven and needed to keep striving to the last. If Paul was not certain how could I be certain.

“Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion—it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ.”—Billy Graham

Oneofmany, you’re misunderstanding both Billy Graham and Protestants.

 

[Jon_S_1]

“Being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion—it is a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ.”—Billy Graham

Oneofmany, you’re misunderstanding both Billy Graham and Protestants.

Here’s the problem I always saw. They talk out of both sides of their mouth.

I was involved in plenty of evangelization and we always led people in the sinners prayer and told them “now you are saved”.

That was it.

Then in church we would talk about living Christian lives. As a teenager I questioned why we had to live Christian lives if I am saved. I was told , that the Christian life is a way to be happy and live a life with less problems.

Where this OSAS came out always was funerals… " had he accepted Christ " was a question always asked. The rest was inconsequential.

I think most pastors will advocate walking with Christ and living a Christian life. But you have to dig deeper to find out why they are recommending that.

 

[Indifferently]

Here’s the problem I always saw. They talk out of both sides of their mouth.

I was involved in plenty of evangelization and we always led people in the sinners prayer and told them “now you are saved”.

That was it.

Then in church we would talk about living Christian lives. As a teenager I questioned why we had to live Christian lives if I am saved. I was told , that the Christian life is a way to be happy and live a life with less problems.

Where this OSAS came out always was funerals… " had he accepted Christ " was a question always asked. The rest was inconsequential.

I think most pastors will advocate walking with Christ and living a Christian life. But you have to dig deeper to find out why they are recommending that.

That’s the false theology of Revivalism.

 

[marywarfield]

Unless they deceive themselves and draw comfort from the word and the sacraments even though it really doesn’t apply to them? In that case, how is the non-elect any different from the elect person? How do they determine the difference?

What hopelessly subjective codswollop.

Codswollop?
.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Here’s the problem I always saw. They talk out of both sides of their mouth.

I was involved in plenty of evangelization and we always led people in the sinners prayer and told them “now you are saved”.

That was it.

Then in church we would talk about living Christian lives. As a teenager I questioned why we had to live Christian lives if I am saved. I was told , that the Christian life is a way to be happy and live a life with less problems.

Where this OSAS came out always was funerals… " had he accepted Christ " was a question always asked. The rest was inconsequential.

I think most pastors will advocate walking with Christ and living a Christian life. But you have to dig deeper to find out why they are recommending that.

Jon, I’m 47, I’ve been in many churches, read much, traveled a lot, and quite honestly I’ve never heard such shallow theology in an Evangelical church. (I’m not saying I haven’t heard some shallow theology in churches at times, just not that spectacularly shallow as what you’re saying.) It’s basic “Christian Discipleship kindergarten” to understand that we are saved by Christ to be conformed into the image of Christ, and part of that includes taking up your cross, complete with pain and denial of self, as the Master led the way.

I’m not dismissing what you’re saying, Jon, about your own experience.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon, I’m 47, I’ve been in many churches, read much, traveled a lot, and quite honestly I’ve never heard such shallow theology in an Evangelical church. (I’m not saying I haven’t heard some shallow theology in churches at times, just not that spectacularly shallow as what you’re saying.) It’s basic “Christian Discipleship kindergarten” to understand that we are saved by Christ to be conformed into the image of Christ, and part of that includes taking up your cross, complete with pain and denial of self, as the Master led the way.

I’m not dismissing what you’re saying, Jon, about your own experience.

I am glad to hear that. It was not my experience though in four different evangelical, friends, or baptist churches in Southern California.

 

[AbideWithMe]

That’s the false theology of Revivalism.

No, that’s just shallow, unthinking, unreflective living. Revivalists were concerned with holy lives being lived as a children of the Heavenly Father.

 

[Jon_S_1]

No, that’s just shallow, unthinking, unreflective living. Revivalists were concerned with holy lives being lived as a children of the Heavenly Father.

I think it s much much more prevalent than you think.

How to Go to Heaven

  It is very simple to be saved and takes only a minute to explain. Please let me show you how to get to Heaven from the Bible, God's Word...

HERE IS HOW YOU CALL UPON THE LORD

Do you admit that you are a GUILTY sinner, under the condemnation of God’s LAW, deserving of Hellfire?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God (God in the flesh) who died upon the cross, sacrificing His precious blood to pay for your sins? Do you believe that Jesus was buried and rose again three days later?

That is the good news of the gospel… Jesus DIED, He was BURIED and He is RISEN!

**If you’d like to be saved, simply come in your heart as a guilty sinner and BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus Christ. **

Perhaps you’d feel comfortable praying a sinner’s prayer as did the publican in Luke 18:13… “And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto Heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.”

Dear Jesus,
I admit that I am a sinner deserving of Hell. I believe that you died, were buried and rose again. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to Heaven when I die. I now believe upon You alone, apart from all self-righteous works and religion, as my personal Savior. Thank you. Amen.

Just as you were born physically to your parents, so you were born spiritually into the Family of God when you received Jesus! Please understand that we are not saved because we pray a prayer; but because we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. It is certainly appropriate to ask the Lord in prayer to forgive and save us; but it is our faith which prompts us to pray. You could just as easily believe in your heart upon the Lord to be saved, and not pray at all. Salvation is of the heart, as we read in Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”

It’s not what you’re doing that gets you to Heaven, it’s where you’re looking. Look to Jesus!

You do NOT have to be water baptized nor doing anything to get to Heaven other than trust upon the Lord as your Savior. Romans 4:5 proclaims… “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him (Jesus) that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” What a wonderful truth! Our faith is COUNTED for righteousness! There is NO self-righteousness involved in salvation. It is the gift of God. You see, we have no righteousness of our own to offer God. No amount of good can undo the bad we’ve done. Thus, Jesus paid a debt that He did not owe, because we owed a debt that we could not pay. Salvation is receiving, not giving. We are Sinners and Jesus is the Savior. Jesus is precious!

Unbelief is the only sin which can keep you out of Heaven.

Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

Trusting Jesus is meaningless without the cross. You must believe that Jesus died, was buried and rose again. 1st Corinthians 15:1-4 teaches that the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.

You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple!” Yes, that simple. It is scriptural; it is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.

If you’ve never been saved, then now is the time to believe upon the name of Jesus, the Christ, that your sins will be blotted out forever and you can know that your name is written in Heaven.

Christ died for your sins. You are a sinner by nature and by choice. Jesus took your sins and charged them to His own record. He went to the cross and paid the penalty for your sins. He says if you’re willing to receive Him in faith; He will transfer His payment to your debt, and His righteousness to your sins. He will impute to you His goodness, and impute to His own record your sin; if you in faith will trust Him as your Savior.

Romans 8:34, “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

If you would like to search for a good church where you live, CLICK HERE.

Kindest regards,

David J. Stewart
jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

One of many many examples.