My Position on Homosexuality

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You remind me of that byzmelkite member. We became flesh and ‘grew’ naughty bits because of the fall. There is nothing in Genesis to suggest this. How can being created ‘man’ and ‘woman’ have any meaning with no sexuality?
 
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cynic:
You remind me of that byzmelkite member. We became flesh and ‘grew’ naughty bits because of the fall. There is nothing in Genesis to suggest this. How can being created ‘man’ and ‘woman’ have any meaning with no sexuality?
How can you prove to me that the soul has a sexual organ?

When we die and part from our body we will still be men and women. A womans soul is different then a mans soul. Each is created in an aspect of God. On our own we are not like God. Only togeather are we created in the image of God. When a homosexual dies he will still be a man regardless of how much he wants to be a woman.

When we are resurected we will be given a new body that is free from death.

370 In no way is God in man’s image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective “perfections” of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.241

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

224
St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life… The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."225
 
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cynic:
How can you prove that sexuality exists only as a carnal desire?
I just did. did you not read what I quoted?

sexual organs do not define us. sexuality is part of human nature. Don’t focus on that. focus on what the spirt wants. That is what defines us.

We are defined by our perfection as fathers and mothers in the eyes of God.
 
I never said our organs define us, but, just maybe, it’s possible they can mimic the desire for union between husband and wife. However imperfectly.

Your quotes don’t provide any role for women, if our pre fall state was characterized by Adam recreating himself…but then you’ll probably leave out the bits of the Catechism that don’t suit (non Catholic so I wouldn’t know) - and the Bible aswell, including Pauls advice on marriage in Corrinthians, ‘one flesh’ etc -
 
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kev7:
I just did. did you not read what I quoted?

sexual organs do not define us. sexuality is part of human nature. Don’t focus on that. focus on what the spirt wants. That is what defines us.

We are defined by our perfection as fathers and mothers in the eyes of God.
I think our problem is that what you are saying is bordering on a dualist view of the world known as gnosticism. This ancient view asserted a primacy of spirit over matter . The quest of the individual was to be rid of matter to becoming as we were meant to be–spirit.

Peace
 
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cynic:
I never said our organs define us, but, just maybe, it’s possible they can mimic the desire for union between husband and wife. However imperfectly.

Your quotes don’t provide any role for women, if our pre fall state was characterized by Adam recreating himself…but then you’ll probably leave out the bits of the Catechism that don’t suit (non Catholic so I wouldn’t know) - and the Bible aswell, including Pauls advice on marriage in Corrinthians, ‘one flesh’ etc -
the point I was making wasn’t about the roles of men and women and therefore I didn’t post any. If you want me to help you with the roles of women then read the MULIERIS DIGNITATEM. You can google that.

The point I’m making is that we are different in spirt as we are in body. When you die you will still be a woman.

God created us as spirtual and physical beings. When we sined (the original sin) our nature as physical beings changed. Our bodies became subject to death.
 
Gnosis,

You presented a very cogent and reasonable arguement. My question to you would be, let’s say we, the Church, and God accepted your arguement, how would World Society be?

A mixture of heterosexual and homosexual marriages?

What are we to instruct our children about the birds and the bees? Follow your impulses?

Furthermore, an arguement could be presented that myself taking on 2 or 3 wives would be acceptable. I could argue love has no boundaries with quanity, that my sex drive could match 2 or 3 women easily, and that the women could share in child rearing producing a more functional family unit. I could even call my wife to testify that she would appreciate the help of me taking another wife.

How about a wife with 2 or 3 husbands?

Or now, how about a homosexual male with 2 or 3 male mates?

Can you understand why the line must be drawn by the Church somewhere?

I am just not sure you get to present a logical arguement and have it accepted based on your individualistic views. There is a greater societal cohesiveness that needs to be considered. That is probably part and parcel why George Bush is pursueing the Constituational Amendment on marriage.

Good luck with everything. I hope you find peace with this issue that I am sure torments you.
 
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Gnosis:
Some of you here are choking on your own arguments, when you assert that practicing homosexuality equates to suicidal genocide, or that practicing homosexuality is preventing life from taking place you are becoming starkly hypocritical.

I am told that I should be chaste. There are people on this site who have said that they are attracted to the same sex and they stay chaste to ‘honor God’ in what I believe to be a kind of spiritual stockholm syndrome. And Priests themselves take a vow of chastity!

Is the Church then, by telling certain people to refrain from sex, not participating in this so called suicidal genocide? Is it not preventing life? If everyone imitated the priesthood, the human race would also be extinct. So therefore, chastity poses the same threat to survival as does homosexuality
Uh No! The Church recognizes four vocations and lauds each of them.
 
I would suggest a good read of the Theology of the Body for beginners!

Lots of great insight there.
 
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kev7:
I just did. did you not read what I quoted?

sexual organs do not define us. sexuality is part of human nature. Don’t focus on that. focus on what the spirt wants. That is what defines us.

We are defined by our perfection as fathers and mothers in the eyes of God.
I am not comfortable with this because it implies a seperation between the body and the soul which is not correct. We are not fleshy capsules that hold a soul inside we are body-soul and our actions should reflect that body-soul relationship not one over and agaisnt the other.
 
Gnosis - there is a huge difference between chastity and celebacy. You seem to be equating the two and assigning a moral (immoral in this case) axiom to the two as if they were one.
 
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Gnosis:
Some of you here are choking on your own arguments, when you assert that practicing homosexuality equates to suicidal genocide, or that practicing homosexuality is preventing life from taking place you are becoming starkly hypocritical.

I am told that I should be chaste. There are people on this site who have said that they are attracted to the same sex and they stay chaste to ‘honor God’ in what I believe to be a kind of spiritual stockholm syndrome. And Priests themselves take a vow of chastity!

Is the Church then, by telling certain people to refrain from sex, not participating in this so called suicidal genocide? Is it not preventing life? If everyone imitated the priesthood, the human race would also be extinct. So therefore, chastity poses the same threat to survival as does homosexuality
Noone has said we are all to imitate the celibacy of priests. Noone is proposing that.

As far as those with homosexual inclinations, noone is telling them to stay chaste permanently. They are saying they should stay chaste until they are married.

What you are trying to gain approval for is to do something with your body that it is not intended for and that is what is being discouraged.
 
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Gnosis:
There is indeed no gender in God, God himself has no gender in any sense of the idea. In the most profound perspective of our existence (that is our unity in God) gender is then meaningless to us as well. My biological hardware, or psychological if you prefer, draws me to the male sex, where I find a unity and a spiritual bond that can meet my physical needs as well. The physical, emotional, mental and spiritual are all met together then in this relationship. Relationship is the fundamental human need, in fact, it defines our humanity. We need people, for we are nothing except in the light of others. When we find someone to whom we can fully commit ourselves, and therefore, fully complete ourselves, then we have brought forth Life. Yes, before it we were alive in the physical sense, but I believe a relationship with another person has the ability to make us Alive. The physical leads us to the spiritual. My body leads me to men, but beyond the scope of our sexual union, there is no concept of gender. So perhaps we can see the physical as a bridge, as absolutely necessary to the rest of this equation. I do not have sexual feelings for a female, our relationship can be united in the spiritual and emotional but the physical, a vital link, is missing.

OK. You seem to be misunderstanding that the homosexual lifestyle, is not natural…God did not intend for us to act on these desires. They are disordered. Sexual organs were not meant to go into those places. It was meant for excrement. Just as a vagina was meant for , well you know what, and for babies to come out. This is not a unitive act. You are being deceived into believing this. It is like an abuse on the body that God gave us. An abuse on the man that you say you “love”. His body was not meant for that. If it goes on too long, his body could be damaged and so could yours, and you will be incontinent, because THIS IS NOT WHAT YOUR BODY WAS MADE FOR. Sometimes I think it is hard for a person to see reality until they are knocked off their horse and they can take a step back and see things objectively. Unfortunately sometimes it’s met with regrets.

We all struggle with thoughts and feelings that are not for the good of others and are selfish. This is part of our life here on earth and it is a struggle. We all have to make some very difficult choices, in which we need the guidance of the Church that Christ started here on earth. We cannot go on feelings alone.

What about the people who cheat on their spouses. Are they not thinking they just don’t feel “complete” anymore with their spouse? They feel “drawn” to someone else, and this person makes them feel “one”. Until that person doesn’t make them feel that way anymore, and in the meantime, they have destroyed their children’s lives and the life of the person they claimed they “loved” on the day they got married. If we all went about living our lives doing what made us feel “complete” at the time, this world would be complete chaos, and actually it’s just about getting there right now, because people seem to be doing more and more of what makes them “feel good” and not caring about what the consequences of those actions are.
 
I only post to try and put a reply to the post about the description of the young man growing up remembering to the age of 5 years. I would just like to share that in my reading of Dr. Joseph Nicolosi’s work with those who would identify with homosexuality, he states that the “gender identity disorder” you speak of at such a young age, can in fact by his work, begin at such an early age as 1 1/2 years. You would have to read up on the material, if you are interested to get more of an in depth explanation of this. The website is www.narth.com In my readings of children who feel as you do and experience what you share you experience, it sounds very similar to what you share. When I read the readings of children with Gender Identity Disorder, I had the real sense that this does not just so easily change even in a young boy. The presence of males is not just the solution to solving this disorder. It is a trust felt, known and relied upon from the child to the parent or someone who would take the place of the trusting male. Becasue sometimes the father in the home is not someone the child trusts to begin with for whatever reasons. And from there is built a relationship. There needs to be physcial play, hugs and touch that a young boy needs from his father, appropriate ones. By age 5, some children I read about easily seemed to sense a dad detaching and they retreated back to their old selves in which they did not feel it safe or desired to continue the journey into the male world. They were sort of left in the world of gender nothing. Or in the gender of the females. As they felt or indeed were somehow rejected by the male world. Dr. Nicolosi always states that it is a decision of the individual to want to enter reparative therapy. It is never forced. But the facts remain, a man feels whole, and happy and does not carry the feelings of inferiority and insecurity when they feel like a man. Which is one big reason I can say a man is a man and wants to feel whole. Wants the “masculinity” he does not possess and that which as a teen or adult now has a sexual attraction to it basically the the hormones coming into play, but because he deeply desires that masculinity. If you are interested Dr. Nicolosi, has some wonderful literature out and if anything it can help explain and acknowledge what you feel, have always felt, and that which you greatly want, happiness. True happiness. May God bless you.
 
When we die and part from our body we will still be men and women. A womans soul is different then a mans soul.
No. The Church teaches that spirits are genderless. A soul is no more a man than it is tall, black, handicapped, or blonde haired.
When we are resurected we will be given a new body that is free from death.
Yes. And that body WILL indeed have our original gender. But our souls, when disembodied, are essentially genderless. The only connection they will have to gender is the fact that the bodies they ONCE and WILL AGAIN inform were male or female.
 
d(name removed by moderator)my:
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Gnosis:
OK. You seem to be misunderstanding that the homosexual lifestyle, is not natural…God did not intend for us to act on these desires. They are disordered. Sexual organs were not meant to go into those places. It was meant for excrement. Just as a vagina was meant for , well you know what, and for babies to come out. This is not a unitive act. You are being deceived into believing this. It is like an abuse on the body that God gave us. An abuse on the man that you say you “love”. His body was not meant for that. If it goes on too long, his body could be damaged and so could yours, and you will be incontinent, because THIS IS NOT WHAT YOUR BODY WAS MADE FOR. Sometimes I think it is hard for a person to see reality until they are knocked off their horse and they can take a step back and see things objectively. Unfortunately sometimes it’s met with regrets.
We all struggle with thoughts and feelings that are not for the good of others and are selfish. This is part of our life here on earth and it is a struggle. We all have to make some very difficult choices, in which we need the guidance of the Church that Christ started here on earth. We cannot go on feelings alone.

What about the people who cheat on their spouses. Are they not thinking they just don’t feel “complete” anymore with their spouse? They feel “drawn” to someone else, and this person makes them feel “one”. Until that person doesn’t make them feel that way anymore, and in the meantime, they have destroyed their children’s lives and the life of the person they claimed they “loved” on the day they got married. If we all went about living our lives doing what made us feel “complete” at the time, this world would be complete chaos, and actually it’s just about getting there right now, because people seem to be doing more and more of what makes them “feel good” and not caring about what the consequences of those actions are.

Yes, you make some good practical and seemingly obvious points. In the case of male homosexuality, engaging in the act runs counter to what is naturally designed and if it persists, can result not only in emotional ailments but physical ailments. To put it bluntly: the plumbing doesn’t fit and you can damage something when you try to fit a square peg in a round hole. Doesn’t this fact seem too obvious? I’m not sure why it’s not mentioned more often.
 
*I’m not sure why it’s not mentioned more often.

*It isn’t mentioned because it goes right to the heart of what homosexuality **IS. ** It doesn’t couch itself in language about love and realtionships, validation, same sex attraction etc., etc. When it is all boiled down- the reality is oral and anal sex. Many times, people who have to think about this reality are far more reluctant to offer their “blessings”, which is why it only comes out at the end of the show.
 
Besides the obvious sexual connation of homosexuality. Pretend the sexuality does not come into play and that person man or woman still is drawn into this same-sex attraction, meaning a guy will want a guy sexually and a woman will want a woman sexually. Neither will have the desire for the opposite sex. Well, frankly I seriously doubt many really know what homosexuality is or entails and how it happens.

A good place to start off would be www.narth.com which by the way is hated by the liberals and the APA, which says that homosexual lifestyle is fine and is propagating it nonstop. Knowing what or how homosexuality sort of become a part of a person doesn’t mean the lifestyle is condoned or your opinions differ, rather, it can explain why so many “suffer” and want healing and are looking for it in ways like sexual acting out.
 
I can honestly say that I read an interview with Ratzinger before he became pope. He said that its because of our society’s tolerance of contraceptives that has led to an increase of homosexuality.
 
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