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jmcrae
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Well, we’re not. We’re still under the same Pope and the same Magisterium.
But that’s what unity is. It’s everyone being members of the same organization, and being under the same rules of discipline (even if the rule is that some people do this, and some people do that), and adhering at least somewhat to a common body of doctrine (and whether that body of doctrine contains some unresolved questions isn’t really the point).
You are divided in that some of you are various different kinds of Baptists and your earthly authority is some sort of yearly Convention, some of you are Presbyterians and your earthly authority is the Moderator of the General Council, and some of you are Anglicans, and your earthly authority is the Bishop of Canterbury, and some of you are Mennonites and your earthly authority is the will of the local congregation together with some documents that were written about 500 years ago, and so on.
Everything else is just looking for the reasons for the divisions - but theological differences in areas that have never been dogmatically defined, or local differences in disciplinary practice, etc. don’t have to cause disunity. In Protestantism, they generally do. But in Catholicism, they generally don’t.
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Mannyfit75
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Syele,
I read the article in gratia.info/controversies.htm.
These are disputes over grace. If you read the article the dispute was settle.
The article states:
In 1594 the dispute between the Thomists and the Molinists reached a fever heat. **Pope Clement VIII in order to settle the dispute convened in Rome a Congregatio de Auxiliis **(1598-1607), and to this the Dominicans and the Jesuits sent, at the pope’s invitation, their ablest theologians. After the congregation had been in session for nine years without reaching a conclusion, Paul V, at the advice of St. Francis de Sales, permitted both systems, strongly forbidding the Jesuits to call the Dominicans Calvinists, or the Dominicans to call the Jesuits Pelagians. The deliberations of the congregation are fully set out in the article CONGREGATIO DE AUXILIIS.
The document, The Congregatio de Auxiliis, Latin for ‘[Roman] Congregation on help (by Divine Grace)’, was a commission established by Pope Clement VIII to settle the theological controversy regarding divine grace which arose between the Dominicans and the Jesuits towards the close of the sixteenth century. It was presided for a time by Peter Lombard, Archbishop of Armagh [1].
The document should have settle the issue but it hasn’t. The issue of grace between the Dominicans and Jesuits are merely theological disputes. They are not consider defined doctrines.
This is no different than the theological beliefs between Latin Rite and Eastern Rite. Our Eastern Rite Catholics don’t use the same terms we Latins used. They called their beliefs in purgatory as expressions.
I read the article in gratia.info/controversies.htm.
These are disputes over grace. If you read the article the dispute was settle.
The article states:
In 1594 the dispute between the Thomists and the Molinists reached a fever heat. **Pope Clement VIII in order to settle the dispute convened in Rome a Congregatio de Auxiliis **(1598-1607), and to this the Dominicans and the Jesuits sent, at the pope’s invitation, their ablest theologians. After the congregation had been in session for nine years without reaching a conclusion, Paul V, at the advice of St. Francis de Sales, permitted both systems, strongly forbidding the Jesuits to call the Dominicans Calvinists, or the Dominicans to call the Jesuits Pelagians. The deliberations of the congregation are fully set out in the article CONGREGATIO DE AUXILIIS.
The document, The Congregatio de Auxiliis, Latin for ‘[Roman] Congregation on help (by Divine Grace)’, was a commission established by Pope Clement VIII to settle the theological controversy regarding divine grace which arose between the Dominicans and the Jesuits towards the close of the sixteenth century. It was presided for a time by Peter Lombard, Archbishop of Armagh [1].
The document should have settle the issue but it hasn’t. The issue of grace between the Dominicans and Jesuits are merely theological disputes. They are not consider defined doctrines.
This is no different than the theological beliefs between Latin Rite and Eastern Rite. Our Eastern Rite Catholics don’t use the same terms we Latins used. They called their beliefs in purgatory as expressions.
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Mannyfit75
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They are were in dispute, but like theologians debating over the existence of Limbo.
And the reason I won’t write out all the beliefs of Thomists, Augustinians, and Molinists is because there is a LOT of information involved in each one. I am not an expert on any of them, though I have studied them. It would take several full posts on each of the three to describe them all fully and WHY would you want to learn about them from some protestant you barely know online instead of reading about them from well-established Catholic sources??
I gave an answer on the previous post.
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Rbt_Southwell
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Syele
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Even if the rule is that some people do this, and some people do that? Protestantism is full of some people that do this and some that do that. They all claim Jesus as their authority. Catholics have some people doing this and some doing that and Claim Jesus and the Pope as their authority. It makes no sense that that makes one group unified and not the other.Both claim a central authority, neither have complete union in beliefs on everything.
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Syele
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Then obviously it had to be settled TWICE. since 1594 is significantly before 1748. just because both times it was “settled” say it was settled doesn’t mean they all reconciled their differences. both times they weren’t “settled” they were just told not to argue about it anymore.
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Mannyfit75
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But which one of these Protestant Churches are teaching the truth? One of them is teaches misleading doctrines.
The authority of the Catholic Church comes from God, whom he bestowed upon the Bishops and Pope. When dispute arises, the Church settle the issue. We see this in Church history starting with the Council of Jerusalem and other later Councils.
Protestants don’t have Pope. When they have issues, they just make their own Church. Take a look at the Episcopalian Churches, a group of conservative Canadian parishes have seceded because of the issues of gay bishop. The Bishop of Cantabury couldn’t even settle the issue. Protestants have no Magisterium or Pope to settle disputes. None.
In the Catholic Church, we have that.
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Mannyfit75
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From what I read, these are theological disputes. They are not doctrine or part of the deposit of faith. Let theologians debate. Unless the Catholic Church settle the issue, then all faithful include lay and religious are required to adhere to them. As you know, this issue on grace has not been settle by Jesuits and Dominicans. If the Magisterium through a Council resolve this, then the issue is no longer a problem.
This does not prove disunity. These are disputes on mere opinions. The disunity which you speak of is not there.
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jmcrae
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Yes. And when they recognize that the rule can be followed by different people in different ways, they remain united, and when someone starts up a new denomination based on their interpretation of the rule differing from someone else’s, they become divided.
The division doesn’t happen when different people (on the advice of their pastors) are following the rule in different ways - the division happens when someone starts up a new Church because of it.
Yes, that’s true. We are organizationally unified under the Pope.
But not all Protestants have the same central authority. First of all, none of them have the Pope - that’s why they’re considered Protestants and not Catholics.
Next, they each have different authorities - Baptists have the Baptist Convention; Prebyterians have the Moderator of the General Council; Anglicans have the Bishop of Canterbury, and so on.
They are divided from each other because Baptists don’t follow the Bishop of Canterbury, or the Moderator of the General Council; they follow the Baptist Convention. Thus, Baptists are members of a different organization than the Presbyterians, who are again in a different organization than the Anglicans. Etc.
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Syele
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I stated multiple times that I was not judging by members who did not follow teachings. I stated that I used only Catholic sources. And I stated a specific Doctrine that Catholics are allowed to disagree on as my example. Did you even read the thread?
I also did not cite any “Catholic theologian
Show me were in this thread (or ANY other thread for that matter) where I’ve ever contended that the Church ought to be judged by its members who do not adhere to Church teachings.You can look though all 1,741 of my posts and you won’t find it. Even if 1,000 of my posts hadn’t been lost in the forum crash, and you looked though those you STILL wouldn’t find it cause I didn’t ever say any such thing.
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jmcrae
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They were told not to call each other names over it. As far as I can tell, they are still arguing, even until now.
In fact, just the other day, a Jesuit and a Dominican were standing in the Parish Hall discussing this when my Filipina friend went up to them and asked, “Fathers, how many Novenas must I pray to get a Bugatti Veyron?” and they both looked at her in wonderment - the Domincan asked her, “What is a Bugatti Veyron?” while the Jesuit asked her “What is a Novena?”
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jmcrae
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“Allowed to disagree” means that we remain in unity while disagreeing, does it not?
We are not in total agreement; we are in total unity.
Big difference.
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Syele
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ok so now we have something… Theological disputes not settled by a central earthly authority do not count. by that rule, no protestant disputes get to be counted as disunity! (unless you admit there is a double standard in how these things are discussed)
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Syele
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Protestants on one accord claim Jesus AND Scripture as their central authority. Sounds like unity in authorities to me.
We are not in total agreement; we are in total unity.
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Syele
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LOLThey were told not to call each other names over it. As far as I can tell, they are still arguing, even until now.
In fact, just the other day, a Jesuit and a Dominican were standing in the Parish Hall discussing this when my Filipina friend went up to them and asked, “Fathers, how many Novenas must I pray to get a Bugatti Veyron?” and they both looked at her in wonderment - the Domincan asked her, “What is a Bugatti Veyron?” while the Jesuit asked her “What is a Novena?”
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Syele
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I’ll answer that when you can tell me which is teaching the whole truth, Molinists, Thomists or Augustinians.
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jmcrae
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If they claim this, then why are there such things as the various Baptist Conventions, Moderators of General Councils, and the Bishop of Canterbury?
The Protestant claim to doctrinal unity in essentials would gain a lot more credibility if they would just pick one institution for all of them to follow, instead of having how many dozens of different ones.
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Rbt_Southwell
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Rbt_Southwell
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