My rant on Unity

[Syele]

Molinist, Thomists, and Augustinian are philosophical schools taught by Molin, Thomas, and Augustine… They aren’t the Magisterium. You haven’t prove that they are.

I never said they are. I said that Pope Benedict XIV Declared they are all acceptable. I also gave a reference and the Year. Robert Gave anothe Edit that said the same thing from before that.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The truth is that some who claim the Holy Spirit Guides them are obviously wrong or outright lying. I was told yesterday by someone that he is an Catholic Athiest. Just cause he says so, doesn’t make it possible.

There is no such thing as a Catholic atheist. He is either one or the other. Not both.

People not listening to the Holy Spirit are wrong. All Christians need to be obedient to all teaching of God. If they aren’t they are hypocrites or sadly misguided.

They need to be corrected by proper doctrine of the faith to learn the truth.

Don’t misunderstand me, I do not mean by anything I’ve said that Catholics don’t have God as an authority. All Christians should have God as Their Ultimate authority. I was specifically being questions about my Earthly Authority, I listed Jesus and the Bible. Catholics listed the Pope. No one was trying to Exclude God from Catholics.

It does seem to show that way. You should have wrote, Catholic has God and the Pope as their authority, since God gave the Pope authority over faith and moral.

 

[Syele]

So, what is the purpose of the various Baptist Conventions and Moderators of General Councils, etc.? (I won’t bring the Archbishop of Canterbury into it, because I don’t even think he knows what his job is, these days. By the way, does “Protestant unity” mean that you get to defend his recent actions, or are you only unified with him on the things you agree with him on?)

Conventions, general councils etc. are aids to understanding and accountability. They can be wrong and are fallible. They are still useful. Textbooks in History class at schools are not inerrant either, but they are still useful.

So, who makes sure I’m actually praying to God, and not to Satan or something?

Does the magesterium review all your prayers to be sure you don’t accidentally pray to Satan or something? do you think God is so cruel to hear a prayer addressed to Him and redirect it to Satan?

 

[Syele]

There is no such thing as a Catholic atheist. He is either one or the other. Not both.

Good you got my point. Saying something doesn’t make it so.

They need to be corrected by proper doctrine of the faith to learn the truth.

Agreed.

It does seem to show that way. You should have wrote, Catholic has God and the Pope as their authority, since God gave the Pope authority over faith and moral.

I stand corrected. I did not intend to imply that.

 

[jmcrae]

Conventions, general councils etc. are aids to understanding and accountability. They can be wrong and are fallible. They are still useful. Textbooks in History class at schools are not inerrant either, but they are still useful.

So, why so many, then, if Protestants are unified? When I was taking Math, they just picked one or two text books and that’s what we went with. We didn’t try to follow every text book in the known Universe.

Does the magesterium review all your prayers to be sure you don’t accidentally pray to Satan or something?

No, but my Spiritual Director gives me exercises to do that perfect my practice and discipline in prayer, so that I can encounter God more deeply and authentically than if I were trying to do it without any help.

do you think God is so cruel to hear a prayer addressed to Him and redirect it to Satan?

Certainly not. But what if I decide to sacrifice a goat? (It’s in the Bible to sacrifice goats, after all.) Is there someone here on earth whose job it is to make sure I learn that under the New Covenant, we don’t do that, and who has recognizable authority such that I know that I’m supposed to listen and do what that person tells me to do? Or is this just left up to the Holy Spirit?

 

[Syele]

So, why so many, then, if Protestants are unified? When I was taking Math, they just picked one or two text books and that’s what we went with. We didn’t try to follow every text book in the known Universe.

I counted 6 Groups plus Non denominational. some of those 6 correspond with differences allowed int eh Catholic Church. I fail to see so many. Of those groups all of them in my town meet twice a year for joint worship. I don’t see how they are trying to follow everything in the known universe. Isn’t that a grand sounding exaggeration!

No, but my Spiritual Director gives me exercises to do that perfect my practice and discipline in prayer, so that I can encounter God more deeply and authentically than if I were trying to do it without any help.

Ah, sounds much like my regular meetings with my Pastor. Plus weekly Bible study, and Sunday school.

Certainly not. But what if I decide to sacrifice a goat? (It’s in the Bible to sacrifice goats, after all.) Is there someone here on earth whose job it is to make sure I learn that under the New Covenant, we don’t do that, and who has recognizable authority such that I know that I’m supposed to listen and do what that person tells me to do? Or is this just left up to the Holy Spirit?

You doubt the ability of the Hoy Spirit to convict you of wrongheadedness? He IS a person of the Trininty you know? He is God! As I said some people don’t listen to God. If they all did there’d be no Cafeteria Catholics or crazy Protestant goat sacrificers (actually I have serious doubts the latter exist )

Why are you arguing there is NO unity among protestants? I have already showed there IS some unity among protestants.

 

[jmcrae]

I counted 6 Groups plus Non denominational. some of those 6 correspond with differences allowed int eh Catholic Church. I fail to see so many. Of those groups all of them in my town meet twice a year for joint worship. I don’t see how they are trying to follow everything in the known universe. Isn’t that a grand sounding exaggeration!

There are six kinds of theology in Protestantism. (And actually I think you forgot Holiness, so really there are at least seven.)

But there are hundreds of different denominations; not just six.

You doubt the ability of the Holy Spirit to convict you of wrongheadedness?

No; I doubt my ability to do as He tells me, without confirmation from another human being that I trust.

 

[Syele]

There are six kinds of theology in Protestantism. (And actually I think you forgot Holiness, so really there are at least seven.)

But there are hundreds of different denominations; not just six.

But denominations do not always signify different belief systems. otherwise there’d be way more than 6-8 of them. Some differences are regional or language based or preference based. I you understand those few kinds of theology you understand Protestants. Such regional and language and other insignificant differences exist in Catholicism too. That is a point I’m making in this thread.

No; I doubt my ability to do as He tells me, without confirmation from another human being that I trust.

If one human decides to go off alone to make theological decisions and does not listen to the Holy Spirit, one other person telling them the truth is not always enough to keep them from error. Many many Protestants have systems of accountability in place just as you do with your spiritual adviser. If that was all it took to keep people from error, there’d be no Cafeteria Catholics.

 

[khutcheson]

Certainly not. But what if I decide to sacrifice a goat? (It’s in the Bible to sacrifice goats, after all.) Is there someone here on earth whose job it is to make sure I learn that under the New Covenant, we don’t do that, and who has recognizable authority such that I know that I’m supposed to listen and do what that person tells me to do? Or is this just left up to the Holy Spirit?

Yes. It’s left up to the Holy Spirit. There’s been a lot of ink on this issue in several threads lately. For many Protestants, the answer is simple. There is no earthly authority to answer these questions definitively, but the Holy Spirit is available to guide us.

I agree, there are a variety of teachings and practices in Protestant churches. So what. Clearly they don’t all possess the “truth”. Truth is overrated. Seriously. Many of the differences between Protestant churches (and within the Catholic Church) as well as between Protestant and Catholic Church teaching will, I believe, in the end, come to nothing.

Bottom line is, we need to love the lord with all our heart. We need to love our neighbor as ourselves. We need to follow God’s commandments. That’s important. Understanding the mechanism by which God will save us, justify us and sanctify us less so. Indeed, I’m not sure we as a race are necessarily capable of such understanding.

Having said that, if we NEVER learn whether Arminus or Calvin (or Augustine for that matter) got the doctrine of predestination correct, whether one can lose their salvation or not, whether we are justified by faith alone or by faith expressed through works it will not matter in the end. What matters is our love–for God and for our neighbors. If we love God we will follow his commandments.

A friend of mine’s father (Joseph Bayly) once wrote something to the effect that we, in the evangelical community needed less theology and more obediance. I think he was right.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

A friend of mine’s father (Joseph Bayly) once wrote something to the effect that we, in the evangelical community needed less theology and more obediance. I think he was right.

The Catholic church has been saying this to protestants for decades, So when are you going to be obedient to your Christianity roots and come back home.

 

[mark_a]

Protestantism may not be completely unified in it, but the Catholic Church hardly stands alone. you will find in me and those in my church fighting abortion just as hard. if you want me to argue for abortion you are barking up the wrong tree.

I believe you.

Abortion was an example I chose because its a no-brainer. But where is the unity in the teachings of Protestantism?

I see from some of your other posts that you have had extremely difficult choices and circumstances to deal with and have come through with excellent pro-life decisions.

I’ll be stepping down off my soap box now.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**Sele, it appears that you are not convinced between what is Catholic doctrine, and Catholic view points. Catholic have unity in one faith, one baptism one Lord, one authority for 2000 years, and you Sele, say today that their is division among Catholic doctrine between Catholics. The persons you refered to are dead now. they did not change The church doctrine,of what the Church taught then, and the Catholic Church will not change now not even for you or me.

I would like to conclude you have argued your point very well, but it does not or will not change the reality that the Roman Catholic Church is in total unity with her doctrines of faith along with the obedience of her members.

Now I will accept that you said there are 6 different protestant denominations in unity of their own seperate doctrines, you have convinced me that niether protestant belief is the same, or dont hold to one authority, faith, baptism, one Lord. Because it can be proven that their exists a protestant faith that does not believe Jesus is God., so not even one Lord can unite protestantism, only in each owns right.

My thread was not to argue, my thread was to try and correct the misunderstanding of My Catholic faith,has been in unity for 2000 years. and has not changed doctrine. **

 

[Syele]

I DO understand the difference between Doctrine and allowed differences of Opinion. It was the allowed Differences of opinion I was discussing. just stating over and over it isn’t Doctrine doesn’t address my point. It’s like arguing with me saying the grass is green by insisting the sky is blue. Just because I think the grass is green doesn’t mean I think the sky isn’t blue.

You still don’t see my point at all.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I DO understand the difference between Doctrine and allowed differences of Opinion. It was the allowed Differences of opinion I was discussing. just stating over and over it isn’t Doctrine doesn’t address my point. It’s like arguing with me saying the grass is green by insisting the sky is blue. Just because I think the grass is green doesn’t mean I think the sky isn’t blue.

You still don’t see my point at all.

Doctrines are defined by the Magisterium. Opinions or theologian theories are not doctrines; like those opinions on grace from Thomist, Molinist, and Augustianians. It is apparent, you cannot distinguish the two.

 

[Syele]

Doctrines are defined by the Magisterium. Opinions or theologian theories are not doctrines; like those opinions on grace from Thomist, Molinist, and Augustianians. It is apparent, you cannot distinguish the two.

I can distinguish the two, what is apparent is that you don’t understand my point even after 10 pages. I said from the start what was and wasn’t doctrine in all this. I recognized the distinction from the very first post.

 

[khutcheson]

Doctrines are defined by the Magisterium. Opinions or theologian theories are not doctrines; like those opinions on grace from Thomist, Molinist, and Augustianians. It is apparent, you cannot distinguish the two.

Ok, but back to the point. Catholics point to the lack of unity in Protestantism because we share a variety of beliefs. Syele points out that Catholics have the same diversity of beliefs within the Church. Hence it’s simply misleading to say that Protestants are divided but Catholics united.

Y’all call these differences theories not doctrine, and then say that you have a unified doctrine but when we don’t agree on comparable theories you say we lack unity.

 

[khutcheson]

Syele,

Just wanted to mention that I think you do a great job of representing the Protestant point of view.

 

[fbl9]

Ok, but back to the point. Catholics point to the lack of unity in Protestantism because we share a variety of beliefs. Syele points out that Catholics have the same diversity of beliefs within the Church. Hence it’s simply misleading to say that Protestants are divided but Catholics united.

Y’all call these differences theories not doctrine, and then say that you have a unified doctrine but when we don’t agree on comparable theories you say we lack unity.

…basically your are saying baptism,real presence or symbolical presence,confession, osas, salvation by faith alone or with works,and the undivided Trinity are just theories of beliefs held by protestants?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I DO understand the difference between Doctrine and allowed differences of Opinion. It was the allowed Differences of opinion I was discussing. just stating over and over it isn’t Doctrine doesn’t address my point. It’s like arguing with me saying the grass is green by insisting the sky is blue. Just because I think the grass is green doesn’t mean I think the sky isn’t blue.

You still don’t see my point at all.

Oh yes I get your point but you did not complete your statement, We can stop here from your above statement and I will concur. When you add and compare Catholic doctrine is different among Catholics comparing to protestant disunity,this is a whole seperate issue being taken up. I to tire of repeating the same thing. So I am trying my hardest to explain my point, but you disagree and hold that Catholics hold to different doctrines (Grace), when all of Catholic history disagrees with only you.

 

[khutcheson]

…basically your are saying baptism,real presence or symbolical presence,confession, osas, salvation by faith alone or with works,and the undivided Trinity are just theories of beliefs held by protestants?

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Syele pointed out schools of thought in Catholicism that have doctrines of grace comparable to Calvinism and Armianism. People point to Calvinism/Arminianism as evidence that Protestants are divided but ignore similar differences in Catholicism and call Catholics united.

I’m not arguing that Protestants are not divided, I’m just pointing out that it’s not fair to apply one standard to Catholicism and another to Protestantism. If you apply the same standard to both, either Protestants are less divided than alleged on here, or Catholics less unified. Your call.