My response to a Catholic challenge

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JPrejean:
Actually, you are the one who hasn’t made a logical argument for your assertion that Scripture was cited expecting people to know its correct interpretation. Perhaps if you could state a syllogistic argument for this position, it would be easier to see. As far as I can tell, you’ve simply said “it’s obvious,” but the conclusion is by no means obvious to me. See also:
BouleTheou,
Your view is just as this quote says. You think that your view is obviously the correct view. The Catholics in this forum believe that their view is obviously the correct view. Is your goal to just mess with some Catholics or do you honestly want to learn what Catholics believe and why they believe it. I want to learn what you believe and why you believe it. If you are going to simply quote a few verses in your original post and then give responses to other posts that contain no real information other than your own opinion, I will not (nor will anyone else) learn what you believe and why you believe it. It is not obvious to us. You need to break it down a bit. Put what you are saying in laymans terms so that we can understand what you mean by what you say. Don’t expect us to understand it without further explanation.
Thanks,
Luke from Ohio
 
So I’ve been thinking more about this thread and another thought occurred to me: BouleTheou presented some information with the intent of convincing us that we, as individuals, have the ability to determine what books belong in the Bible, and what those texts mean, thereby arriving at truth. Yet he would argue that the truth I, as an individual, have come to believe is not true. **Anyone else see the irony in this? **

If BouleTheou’s idea is correct, then what I believe must be true. But what I believe contradicts what he believes, which must also be true. There are only two possibilites here. Either one of us is wrong, or we are both correct. If we are both correct, then what is true for him is not true for me and what is true for me is not true for him (truth is subjective). If this is correct, then God, who identifies Himself as The Truth, is everything to everyone, which means there are multiple Gods, which means one is not superior to the others, which means there is no supreme being. Therefore, if BouleTheou’s position is true, then none of us are right because we all profess a belief in a supreme being (God).

I fear that BouleTheou’s theory would eventually cause my mind to implode, and I would ultimately end up committed to a mental institution babbling about things that even I do not understand. I sincerely hope this is not God’s plan for me. :o

Where is BouleTheou?
 
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BouleTheou:
You’ve missed the whole point. Jesus held them accountable for knowing, as individuals, the proper interpretation without an infallible guide.
BouleTheou,

I’m curious, how do you interpret the scripture passage below using Sola Scriptura?

“Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” I Cor. 14:34-35.

I believe Paul also instructs in another passage that women ought to have their heads covered as well. Again, using Sola Scriptura how would you interpret this passage.

God Bless…
 
I’m not going to quote scripture or get into a deep seeded argument, but let’s just look at this logically. Jesus, while being fully God and fully man, was a teacher. Any good teacher leaves behind both a lesson plan (scripture) and makes provisions for a substitute teacher (magistarium) to carry on in their absence. Jesus, being God, knew that his flock would need continuous guidance. Like a good teacher, he has left us with both his written word and a magistarium to ensure that we don’t misinterpret his lesson plan.
 
carol marie:
Boule Theou,

… see previous post …

One Bible led me on that very long, confusing road. What would you say to me, Boule Theou?
Go carol marie GO!!! Is it so strange to the rest of us to see the rising crescendo as carol marie delves deeper and deeper that her beliefs are becoming more and more Catholic?

:clapping: :tiphat:
 
Folks -

Again, I just got done reading these responses. I’ll just keep asking. Why did Jesus assume his hearers knew the canon and its proper interpretation apart from the existence of an infallible body of teachers? Do you find that consistent or inconsistent with the Roman Catholic position on the canon and its proper interpretation.

BouleTheou
 
CatholicMatthew -
Your references to tradition condemned and you even missed Col 2:8
Wasn’t trying to give an exhaustive list. Besides, what is condemned in Colossians 2:8 is vain philosophy which is according to the tradition of men - but that’s neither here nore there.
Well lets see where tradition is upheld
1 Cor 11:2
2 Thess 2:15
2 Thess 3:6
Amen, and what is the doctrinal content of that tradition? The gospel of Jesus Christ - the very same thing that is enscripturated. Now, if you’re asserting that this tradition mentioned in those passages contained revelation outside of and different from what is in Scripture, then by all means tell us what it is and what its doctrinal content is.
If you wish to quote the Bible please look in the context of the whole Bible.
I always do so. Every passage you quoted is utterly irrelevant to both my original post and to my citations of Matthew 15 and Mark 7.
The point Christ was making is that the Traditions for their own sake are not the point but are the point in the service of God.
No idea what you mean by this sentence.

Still waiting for someone to actually attempt an answer to my original post.

BouleTheou
 
mercygate -
In many cases, we clearly can come to such an understanding. In others, the case is more complex.
How does one know what cases those are? For example, I believe justification by faith apart from works is one of the clearest, plainest, simplest doctrines of Scripture to understand.

BouleTheou
 
Fidelis -
No, your whole argument hinges on this pet interpretation and it fails miserably because if you carry it to its logical conclusion, it proves too much. You are saying that Jesus is telling these non-Christian Pharisees and Saducees that they have the ability to infallibly interpret Scripture for themselves.
Indeed, that is exactly correct. They had the ability to interpret it correctly, but they were misinterpreting it. And Jesus is angry with them because there is no excuse for it. It wasn’t that they had some infallible office they should have been listening to. The words of Scripture should have been plain enough in themselves. This is why Jesus cites Scripture and simply says, “haven’ you read this?”
If this is the case, then Jesus need never have sent the Holy Spirit to guide his Church into all truth (John 14:25-26).
Think Fidelis. There’s this thing called the New Testament - the latter third of your Bible. The only deposit of faith at this particular point in time was the Old Testament. The New hadn’t been written yet, and when Jesus said these words, new revelation was in the process of being given.

Your argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would be that no one prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit to guide the church could have interpreted anything in Scripture correctly. Surely that is not the case - there were many believers among the Jewish people and outside the Jewish community (the god-fearers) prior to the coming of Christ and the church-age. So, you are badly mistaken in this argument as well.
And we know he sent the Spirit to guide the Church and not individuals because the result of individual interpretation is the 30,000 Protestant denominations.
What is the source of that number? Dr. Svendsen, in his book, “Upon This Slippery Rock” has shown that the same criteria utilized to define a “denomination” within Protestantism can be used to show that there are an equal number of Catholic denominations. Again, one huge difference would be that I embrace my Methodist, Evangelical, Lutheran, and Episcopal brethren. Do you, Fidelis, embrace your Sedevacantist, Traditionalist, and SSPX Catholic brethren?
Again, you have not answered your friends original question to anyones satisfaction.
[sigh]…

Still waiting…

BouleTheou
 
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kparlet:
but let’s just look at this logically. … Like a good teacher, he has left us with both his written word and a magistarium to ensure that we don’t misinterpret his lesson plan.
I like your approach, kparlet. 👍 Looking back through history we find GOD always gives us His word, but then uses people to continually represent and explain the why of it all.

Kotton 😉
 
kpartlet/kotton -

How does one come to make the decision to embrace the correct infallible interpreter, without using the very private interpretation you condemn?

BouleTheou
 
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BouleTheou:
kpartlet/kotton -

How does one come to make the decision to embrace the correct infallible interpreter, without using the very private interpretation you condemn?

BouleTheou
Its not like they read the scriptures and all of a sudden they believed what the Catholic Church teaches. They saw what the Catholic Church taught and they read the scriptures and rrealized the Catholic Church was correct.
 
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Cephas:
I was refering to basically every one of your add-ons to each one of the scripture you used.

I will say that maybe I did read sarcasm into each one, and if that is truly the case, then I am sorry and ask your forgiveness.

But, they seem to have that tone in the way they are worded.

Ceph
CEPHAS

I am just going to be an observer on this thread. I am not up to all the verbal volley of words between the posters.

Cephas, your perception of the way Boule Theou reponds is correct. Kudos to your immediate, self-possessed Catholic response.

BT’s (Patrick) posts have a tendency to be full of biting sarcasm. I say this because I have read his posts on another catholic forum. The moderator of that forum gave him gentle warnings to tone down his sarcasm. Patrick could respond to my post by saying that the catholic apologists were also out-of-line. True. But what I have told my children: Don’t use the excuse to blame another for your own shortcomings. Don’t look at another’s bad behavior so that you may use that as an exuse to behave badly.

I know, all these “don’ts” are easier said than done.

I can see the back-and-forth responses to become hardhitting, but unnecessary remarks to punctuate your superiority over the other posters will only show your lack of charity as a Christian. We are here to learn from each other and, hopefully, be edified in the process of it.

How does that song go? “And they know that we are Christians by our love, by our love, and they know that we are Christians by our love…” Is this true?

Peace to all of you.

Theodora
 
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BouleTheou:
They had the ability to interpret it correctly, but they were misinterpreting it.
Sorry, but this statement is nonsense.
Think Fidelis. There’s this thing called the New Testament - the latter third of your Bible. The only deposit of faith at this particular point in time was the Old Testament. The New hadn’t been written yet, and when Jesus said these words, new revelation was in the process of being given.
Think BouleTheou–*really * think – and try not to be condescending. There is no reason to believe that the guidance by the Holy Spirit of the Church ended with the close of the NT canon. The Bible nowhere states this and it is nowhere implied.
Your argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would be that no one prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit to guide the church could have interpreted anything in Scripture correctly. Surely that is not the case - there were many believers among the Jewish people and outside the Jewish community (the god-fearers) prior to the coming of Christ and the church-age. So, you are badly mistaken in this argument as well.
Actually you are both mistaken and misinformed. The Jewish Law gave the OT priests the right to interpret Scripture and hold others bound.They were the authority in the Old Testament and God’s people were required to listen to and obey them (for example, Deut 17:8-13; 2 Chron 19:6-8). The OT gave no such authority to individuals. In fact even if individuals had the ability, the vast majority could never exercise it since many couldn’t read, most didn’t have the leisure time to study, and almost nobody (except maybe priests and scholars) had their own copies of or even access to the Bible, the canon of which had not even been set at that time! (This is a whole ‘nother can o’ worms, but if you are interested in this facet of the argument see this short article by Catholic Answers Apologist Jimmy Akin, “The Practical Problems With Sola Scriptura” found here: cin.org/users/james/files/practicl.htm)
What is the source of that number?
This has been answered above. Try to keep up. 🙂
Dr. Svendsen, in his book, “Upon This Slippery Rock” has shown that the same criteria utilized to define a “denomination” within Protestantism can be used to show that there are an equal number of Catholic denominations. Again, one huge difference would be that I embrace my Methodist, Evangelical, Lutheran, and Episcopal brethren. Do you, Fidelis, embrace your Sedevacantist, Traditionalist, and SSPX Catholic brethren?
Your (and by extension, Svendsen’s) analogy is a poor one because it fails to make the distinction between denominations (found only in Protestantism) and schismatic groups. And I know too many seperationists --Protestants that won’t associate with other Protestants because of what they believe – to fall for that rosy image of Protestant fellowship.
[sigh]…

Still waiting…
[Sigh] Still waiting…for you to come up with a defensible reply to your friend’s original question. You need to start over from syllable one. 🙂
I challenge you to prove to me that each individual reader of the Bible has the authority, from God, to interpret the Bible for himself so as to come to an understanding of what is true and what is false on all matters of faith and morals.
 
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BouleTheou:
kpartlet/kotton -

How does one come to make the decision to embrace the correct infallible interpreter, without using the very private interpretation you condemn?

BouleTheou
Although it is personal, it is not really private because it involves the witness of both history and the Church herself.

A person looks at the Bible as we know it and determines – purely on non-religious grounds, based on the historic authenticity of the manuscript evidence – that the Bible, especially the New Testament, is a unique and credible collection of documents which tell a unique, and truly unbelievable story: that Jesus, who claimed to be God, died and rose from the dead. Why should we believe such an outrageous proposition? Looking at the text itself (not as a witness to its own authority), and looking at other writings of the period which deal with the subject, noting the behavior of those who put their lives on the line – and died – for their unshakeable belief in the Resurrection, we conclude that this story must be true because it certainly can’t hold water as a fable. I, for one, find the behavior of the early martyrs, beginning with Stephen, to be compelling evidence of at least their certainty that Jesus is who he claimed to be. Since that same Jesus said he would establish a Church, and that he would protect it and send the spirit to guide it in all truth, we look again to the history to see if there is a Church that fits the bill. The only Churches which have historic links to the Apostles are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. For me, to have Apostolic Succession without Peter (Rome) in the House of Bishops was irrational. The note of “infallibility” (which is related to the doctrine of “indefectibility”) is inescapable when the Church is seen in this way.

Thus, the witness of the martyrs, the affirmation of the early Church, the Scriptural texts, the writings of the Fathers, all come together to compel one’s personal affirmation that Jesus Christ is Lord and that the Catholic Church is the Church he founded.
 
A rather simplistic reply, I know, but…

The New Testament was written by the early church fathers who, before they wrote the New Testament, founded the church. The New Testament is their gift to us to further our understanding of our faith. If I read the New Testament, and through my understanding, come to believe something that the church says is incorrect, I know my thinking is flawed, and not the church, because it is the church that gave me the New Testament.
 
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BouleTheou:
kpartlet/kotton -

How does one come to make the decision to embrace the correct infallible interpreter, without using the very private interpretation you condemn?

BouleTheou
Because if you believe in the Bible, then you’ve already embraced the Catholic Church as the infallible interpreter. Let’s not forget that the Bible came from the Church, the Church did not come from the Bible.

Keep working through it, you’ll get there! 😃
 
I think I understand the question. The point is that Jesus several times admonishes the Pharisee and other Jewish authorities for falling to understand God’s word asking “Didn’t you read …”.

From that the conclusion can be drawn that God had guided the writers of ancient scripture and that they had the ability to understand the writings but failed to do so. So how do we know A. The Holy See is correctly interperting scripture and/or B. Why do we rely on there interpretation, or would Christ admonish us for listening to them and not questioning when they seem to have something wrong.

Prior to Christ the word of God was misunderstood, the authorities adhered vehemetly to the letter of the law, without understanding the reasoning behind the law. Christ properly chastised them for this “Did you not read… = Didn’t you understand?”.
Christ taught his diciples the reasoning behind the laws of the old testimate and the prophesies in Scripture. The bible speaks of him “Opening the eyes” of the disciples. Before his death and resurection he founded the instituion of the Church, so that his teachings would not be lost.

I personally know I am not qualified to interperate scripture, like the Ethiopian I do not know enough to infallalbe interperate Scripture. For instance, without a knowledge of the culture of Corinth and the situations that were occuring there that prompted Paul to write letters to the Corintheans, how can I claim to understnd the letters to the Corintheans. But the Church did exist then as it does now and retains that knowledge.

I find the example of being justified apart from works as easy to understand from the Bible, ironic. For does not James tell us “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the alter?..See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:20-24

It appears we would be in disagreement. You see faith apart from works is clearly the message of the bible. I understand that I must both have faith and works. How can we settle our differences? I feel that Christ left us with the magestirium which teaches me that while I am justified by faith apart from works of the Mosaic law, I can not have faith apart from works of love and hope. “So faith, hope, and love remain, these three, but the greatest of these is love” - 1 Cor 13:13

Lets further say we disagree about something else, such as whether an action is a sin. “If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him is fault…if he refuses to listen to them, tell the church” - Mt 18:15-17 Now under the scenerio where we not given a church, then what church do we go to? The Catholic, the Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, Anglicans, Universal Life Church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seven day adventist, Church of Christ, Church of the Free word, Unitarians, … we aren’t taking our problems to the church, we are searching for a church that tells us what we want to hear. I don’t believe that Jesus commands us to go to the church and doesn’t leave us with the church. Indeed Christ says “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father” - Mt 18 18-19. Who does Jesus give this mighty power to, the apostles, what church can claim the apostles as its first bishops, bishops who handed down this power to new bishops to continue the church in perpetuity, only one the Catholic church
 
kpartlet -
Because if you believe in the Bible, then you’ve already embraced the Catholic Church as the infallible interpreter. Let’s not forget that the Bible came from the Church, the Church did not come from the Bible.
Neatly refuted by one passages of Scripture: Ephesians 2:19-20, “19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone”

Special revelation, written or oral, from God creates the Church, not the other way around. You sound almost as if God had to first establish a human authority before He could have called Abraham in Genesis 12. Since the Church spans both testaments, and Abraham was a justified believer (Romans 4:1-8,11 & Genesis 15:6), where was this infallible institution to give revelation to Abraham when God called him in Genesis 12?

BouleTheou
 
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