My response to a Catholic challenge

[mercygate]

BouleTheou:

mercygate -

How does one know what cases those are? For example, I believe justification by faith apart from works is one of the clearest, plainest, simplest doctrines of Scripture to understand.

BouleTheou

I submit, Boule, that this teaching is clear and plain for you because you received it through your tradition, which began 1500 years after Christ walked the earth.

 

[Luke]

BouleTheou:

kpartlet -

Special revelation, written or oral, from God creates the Church, not the other way around. BouleTheou

If this is true, why were some books left out of the canon? How did some books make it in and some did not? Who determined this? On what did they base their decision? If scripture created the Church, how did one know that the scriptures that created the church were the correct scriptures to follow?

 

[BouleTheou]

Luke -

I didn’t say Scripture created the church. I said special revelation from God creates the church.

BouleTheou

 

[Chris_W]

BouleTheou,

I have read the many posts on this thread, and I just wanted to tell you that I hope the responses you receive will not leave you feeling like your questions or challenges are unwelcome. These discussions cause people to think, and look deeper into why we believe what we believe…and that’s a good thing. Hopefully you have read some things here that will give you more food for thought as well.

Anyway, I invite you to stick around and keep presenting your thoughts and questions, with an open mind and heart, and hopefully we will all benefit from the discussions.

Peace,
Chris W

 

[BouleTheou]

Chris W

I have read the many posts on this thread, and I just wanted to tell you that I hope the responses you receive will not leave you feeling like your questions or challenges are unwelcome. These discussions cause people to think, and look deeper into why we believe what we believe…and that’s a good thing. Hopefully you have read some things here that will give you more food for thought as well.

Anyway, I invite you to stick around and keep presenting your thoughts and questions, with an open mind and heart, and hopefully we will all benefit from the discussions.

I very much appreciate that, Chris. Thank you kindly. I think that’s great advice.

BouleTheou

 

[RBushlow]

BouleTheou:

Jimmy - If you have something to contribue besides silly rhetoric, I’d appreciate it. 1 Timothy 3:15 has nothing to do with Rome.

Tim 3:15 says the Church is " the pillar and ground of the truth. "
That would be the Church which Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic Church. Now do you get it?

 

[Luke]

BouleTheou:

Luke -

I didn’t say Scripture created the church. I said special revelation from God creates the church.

BouleTheou

BouleTheou
You said that special revelation written or oral…creates the church. What other type of special revelation besides scripture was written down?
Luke

 

[James224]

Hi BT,

1. Matthew 12:3
2. Matthew 12:5
3. Matthew 21:16
4. Matthew 21:42
5. Matthew 22:31

You said: “Thus, our Lord clearly operated on the assumption that each individual was responsible before God for not only knowing what the canon of Scripture was, but also its correct interpretation.
The fact that people come up with opposing interpretations says much more about human sin, pride, and blindness than it does for the need of an infallible interpreter.”

My comment. This is easy. I lumped them all togeather because in each one an “Infallible” teacher, Jesus Christ, had to explain it to them. They knew the verses but apparently didn’t get the understanding right.

May God bless,

James224

p.s. -

[Hey c0ach, it’s me, Patrick… someone stole my name here, so I picked: BouleTheou which is Greek for “plan of God”]

 

[kepha1]

• Matthew 12:3
  But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:”

If Jesus’ hearers had held to your view of how we come to know what the canon is and its correct interpretation, they could have rightly objected, “But Lord, we have no way of knowing if 2 Samuel was Scripture and therefore authoritative for us. How could any of us know with infallible certainty what Scripture actually is without some infallible body of living men to make an infallible determination of it? After all, when I read Tobit, I don’t feel any different than when I read Esther. Besides, our teachers and friends differ widely on what that passages means.” To which Jesus would have to respond, “Yeah, I guess you’re right.”

1. Matthew 12:5
   Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?

According to your view, they could have rightly said, “What books are in ‘the law’ Lord? We have no way of having infallible certainty of this. Besides, everyone I know thinks it means something different…”

Deturocanonical books were canonized the same way as the New Testament books were canonized. Feelings had nothing to do with it, and if they did, does that mean I can remove the ones I feel like?

What law was Jesus referring to? The Pharisees accused Him and His Apostles of plucking and eating grain on the Sabbath. He asked a question regarding the validity of obeying the law over necessity. Mathew 12:4 refers to David and his men eating the bread reserved for priests. They were hungry. David had these men near him for a reason. Eating the bread was a necessity because they could not function as soldiers. Had they not eaten the stale bread that had been before the Lord, sola scriptura would have been a tactical advantage for David’s enemies. David received permission from the priest to eat the Bread, and the priest granted it on the grounds that the men had been without women, and David told the priest that they had been consecrated for battle in 1 Sam. 21:6. The priest in this case is not following sola scriptura, and neither is he violating the law. Rom.10:5 Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. Jesus is referring to righteousness of mercy, which the Pharisees, as well as Calvinism, keep missing. Jesus goes on to say He is the Lord of the Sabbath, so the Sabbath does not Lord over Jesus, and neither does sola scriptura.

kepha1

 

[kepha1]

Matthew 21:16
and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read, “Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise’?”

Jesus quotes Psalm 8:3. The chief priests and scribes were upset that children were singing about Jesus being the actual Son of David. It was obvious to them, but not obvious to the priests and scribes who knew scripture backwards and forwards. The primary intent, no, more than just intent, the children could not help themselves, sing about what they saw, not because it was ruled that “Hosanna to the Son of David” be sung. This was Christ’s glorious entrance into Jerusalem, and everybody was happy. They were not happy because Psalm 8:3 told them to be happy. The children were blaspheming in their eyes, and Jesus was telling the chief priests and scribes they had no faith, and their sola scriptura, which blinded, had robbed them of it. (Have you not read…?) You bet they read. And read. What is the requirement to be great in the kingdom of heaven? See Matthew 18:1-5. Dependence on God requires humility, not literacy, or theology degrees or destructive self-interpretation.

Yes, Jesus quoted scripture, He was telling them scripture was being fulfilled. He was quoting scripture because He is the Lord of scripture, and His authority lives in His Church.

“But Lord, how could we have known with infallible certainty that what you quoted was really Scripture and inspired or what it really means? We have no infallible external guide to tell us.”

The Church is not an external guide. The Church is Christ on earth, Christ cannot be external to Himself. There is no severance between those (Matthew 19:28) “who shall (future tense) sit (meaning Chairs with successors) on twelve thrones (authority) judging the (protectors, see Judges) of the Twelve (offices established by Christ) Tribes of Israel (the Church, represented in the 120 in Acts 1:15 [12 tribes X 10, the apocalyptic number of man], no severance between this Church and the Son of Man whom Jesus says will be, in this time of the Church, be seated on a throne of glory . When sola scriptura takes the Bible out of the hands of the Church that preserves, teaches and explains it, it effectively severs heaven from earth, and it no longer is an inspired book.

kepha1

 

[kepha1]

1. Matthew 21:42
   Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

Ephesians 2:20 The Apostles are not excluded in the foundation of the Church. In fact, Jesus is in heaven and the Apostles successors are the foundation of the church on earth. This verse does not have an expiry date.

“But Lord, how could we have known that was Scripture without an infallible pronouncement and determination from an infallible body of teachers infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit from letting an un-inspired Psalm from getting into the canon?”

There are no additional Psalms in the Catholic Bible. The numbering in the Greek Psalter is one digit behind the Hebrew. It has to do with superscriptions and numbering, but remember there were no chapter and verses at all anywhere in the New Testament until they were put their by a Catholic in the 13th century, one of many Catholic traditions that you follow.

Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council (Jamnia 95AD) who rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

kepha1

 

[kepha1]

1. Matthew 22:31
   But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,

“Jesus, how could we have known what you quoted was ‘spoken to us by God’ without a perpetual body of infallible teachers to first give us certainty that it was indeed spoken by God and what its correct interpretation is?”

Parents send their kids to schools, not just libraries. They need living teachers. It’s normal to human experience. God sends His children a living teacher, the Church, because it is just as normal, and nothing in Catholic teaching is contrary to human experience. By re-defining man, you’re re-defining God, as man is made in His image and likeness.
Private interpretation makes individualism and private judgment the sole authority as to who man is, and who God is. It has led to a kind of rationalism which leads to rejection of authority. In the end, the individual mind is the authority which replaces what God has designed. Worse, the individual becomes an authority greater than God.

Infallible interpretation is not an add-on, it’s a built in. It began in Genesis.

kepha1

 

[kepha1]

In an email exchange I’ve been having with a Catholic apologist, I was given this challenge:

Quote:

I challenge you to prove to me that each individual reader of the Bible has the authority, from God, to interpret the Bible for himself so as to come to an understanding of what is true and what is false on all matters of faith and morals.

Matthew 12:3
But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:”

“Have you not read…” is a rhetorical question. Of course they read. Either Jesus is using the authority of scripture to illustrate their blindness, or He is teaching them that David and his men were a type or foreshadow of Himself and His Apostles.

Jesus does not abuse scriptures with sola scriptura to illustrate blindness, but to provide illumination. Isn’t that what what apologetics is really all about? “Have you not read…” is an attempt by Jesus to illuminate, it is not a put down. I just can’t see Jesus denigrating scripture as a weapon to put somebody down to prove it’s authority. Even if they were scribes and chief priests. Nichodemus responded, didn’t He?

Matthew 12:5
Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?

Verse 6 says, “I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.”
Jesus does not say “I tell you that my interpretation of scripture is greater than yours is here.
Jesus does not say “I tell you that my law is greater than yours is here.
This verse supports the Kingship of Christ as greater than Solomon’s temple, (not scrolls of the Torah). which the scriptural experts of the time did not see. If Jesus is applying the principle of sola scriptura, he would have told them that they were wrong. They were not wrong for being chief priests and scribes, they were blind. Again, Jesus is not abusing the authority of scripture with sloppy apologetic style. Sola scripturists do that, and Jesus is not a sola scripturist just because He said, “Have you not read…”

“Have you not read…” and then making a reference means Jesus is using a language they understood, but did not comprehend. Jesus is teaching us to use the same language of those who can hear us, but don’t yet see. We need to be sure we are speaking their language, so they can hear.

kepha1

 

[kepha1]

Again, Jesus is not putting scripture experts down by asking them, “Have you not read…” The reason He said that was to make them think about what was in front of their eyes, not about the authority of scripture.

This is not to say the scripture has no authority. The Catholic Church teaches the authority of scripture. No problem. But scripture has material authority, not sole authority.

It is not so much as the Church being over the Bible, but the Church presenting the Bible, and both saying the same thing. Problems arise when the Bible is taken out of the hands of the Church from whence it came. The Church, which is Christ on earth, and the divinely inspired written Word of God, cannot be separated.

ckepha1

 

[mayra_hart]

in the ot, when god established his covenant with the nation of israel, he provided for a living, continuing authority in the mosaic priesthood ( see 2 chr 19:11;mal 2:7). this authority did not end when the ot scripture was written;rather, it continued as the safeguard and authentic interpreter of sacred scripture. god make me an instrument of peace… bless you all

 

[BouleTheou]

Ok, let’s try to sum up here:

My Catholic friend challenged me:

I challenge you to prove to me that each individual reader of the Bible has the authority, from God, to interpret the Bible for himself so as to come to an understanding of what is true and what is false on all matters of faith and morals.

I believe Jesus held all men individually responsible for knowing the truth on all matters of faith and morals. Thus, I believe each individual has the authority from God to read and understand Scripture. All of those passages I cited prove that without question.

The answer I seem to be hearing from all of you is that, no, Jesus did not hold men accountable for knowing his truth and that each individual does not have the authority, from God, to interpret the Bible for himself. This then leads to the next question: How then can anyone come to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is what it claims to be? Every conversion story I’ve ever heard or read has over and over and over again pointed to individual, private interpretation of Scripture as being foundational to the conversion itself. But if men do not have the authority to interpret Scripture for themselves, have you not just sawed off the branch of the tree you are sitting on?

BouleTheou

 

[mercygate]

BouleTheou:

I believe Jesus held all men individually responsible for knowing the truth on all matters of faith and morals. Thus, I believe each individual has the authority from God to read and understand Scripture.
BouleTheou

Boule, if this were true, then simple people of simple faith, children, and people who cannot read and those with mental deficits would be unable to come to Christ as he intended. Surely, this is not what you mean.

 

[BouleTheou]

Luke -

You said that special revelation written or oral…creates the church. What other type of special revelation besides scripture was written down?

None. But it was oral before it was written down. It pre-existed the church because it created it. God does not need to establish a “church” or any kind of visible organization before he can reveal himself to man. Notice the case of Adam, the case of Abraham, the case of Noah. The idea that without a visible church or visible organization on earth to speak for God, we’re just not going to have Scripture just is not historically the case.

BouleTheou

 

[mercygate]

BouleTheou:

Luke -

None. But it was oral before it was written down. It pre-existed the church because it created it.

You’re starting to sound like a Catholic.

 

[BouleTheou]

mercygate -

You’re starting to sound like a Catholic.

Not at all. You’re just starting to understand the actual Protestant position on this matter rather than the misrepresentation of it by Karl Keating and the gang at Catholic Answers. The real question for the Catholic is this: If you reject the proposition that all special revelation was committed to Scripture, then by all means tell us the part that wasn’t. Mercygate, I’m listening

The straw man most Catholics are used to fighting against doesn’t put up much of a fight…

BouleTheou