My Sister is Mormon....

[Rbt_Southwell]

We believe that we are ALL of us children of God; every human being (including all the angels). In this way, Jesus is our spiritual big brother. So in that way, also, Lucifer is Jesus’ brother. He’s also yours.

And remain so, dianaiad, for your belief is opposite to what Christians believe.

Jesus is God-made-man. Lucifer or Satan or whatever you term him is a fallen angel.

Angels are not our brothers.

Or did I miss that mormon scripture posting?

That is the fundamental perceptual handicap, dianaiad: mormonism is NOT Christianity in any common sense understanding of doctrine, dogma and salvation history.

Even Dennis Prager (who is Jewish) in his radio program in LA years back–Religion on the Line-- refused to have mormon ‘elders’ on the discussion panel. He said mormonism is not Christianity.

And, for the bemusement of us all, the Protestant ministers, Catholic clergy and Jewish rabbis, all agreed with him.

As to your quoting mormon scripture: keep it up.

It will either be a bland restatement of something from the Bible or it will contradict what your church believes.

You do us a great service, dianaiad, and for that we are eternally grateful:bowdown2:

Robert

 

[RebeccaJ]

We believe that we are ALL of us children of God; every human being (including all the angels). In this way, Jesus is our spiritual big brother. So in that way, also, Lucifer is Jesus’ brother. He’s also yours.

No he is no one’s brother, spiritual or otherwise.

Every family has problems.

Mormonism has problems.

However, Jesus, being the Only Begotten Son of God, is unique; being the Only Person Who is the literal, physical Son of God.

A veiled reference to the mormon belief that Jesus is begotten of a man.

Jesus is begotten of God, the only God, the ONE God. He is God incarnate. Not another god.

Humans are created by God, not begotten by Him.

In that way NONE of us are His siblings, though we are closer than Lucifer is since He was born, as the rest of us were, grew, as the rest of us have, and died, as the rest of us will. Lucifer will never do that.

Where in the Bible do you find this? Where, in any Christian tradition, of 2000 years, do you find this? You don’t. It is a total Mormon fabrication.

I have to admit; the first time I ever heard the “Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers!” said in such an outraged and shocked manner, I was bemused. My first thought was yeah, we do, so? Aren’t we all siblings, whether we like it or not?

Angels are not our siblings, no. Another unique Mormon belief that no Christian believes.

But that was before I was introduced to this complicated hierarchy of creatures and lifeforms that God is supposed to have created before He got around to fiddling with US.

I’m still bemused.

YOu are bemused by God’s creations? Fiddling around? If that is your view of God, that He can only create what little old you can understand, well, no wonder it makes you feel good that God is nothing but a human like yourself.

 

[zerinus]

What does the LDS church teach about why there is anything at all. What is the origin of existence?

We believe in one God, the Father, Who created all things by His Son Jesus Christ. We believe that God created all things out of preexistent matter. We do not believe creation out of nothing.

As far as I can find out, LDS’s worship God, who was once a man in another world? Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

That is not correct. There have been speculations to that effect, which are not supported by LDS scripture. LDS scripture teaches that there is only one God who is the creator of all things, and that is the Father. It has not been revealed how God the Father came to be.

And before God was God of our world, when he was a man in another world, in a previous world, he was a holy man who worshipped the God of that world and his growing in holiness made him God of our world? Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

You are wrong. That is speculation. It is not taught in LDS scripture, and it is not true LDS doctrine.

Did the God of our world create our world or was it already created and he just became God of it?

There is no such thing as “God of our world”. God the Father created all that exists, visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth. He is the God of all worlds, not just of this world.

Our God used to worship another previously existing God and that previously existing God used to worship another even older God, but how did it all start?

Our God is the supreme deity of the universe. He was not created by another God, and He does not worship any other God, and there is no other God above Him.

So did God create the universe or was he created by it?

God created the universe. He was not created by it.

If I understand you correctly the universe wasn’t created at all?

The universe was created (out of preexistent matter) by God.

Then how does it exist?

By God, who created and upholds all things that exist.

Also, the logic lead me to the fact the God didn’t create us so he is not our creator?

God created us and is our creator.

or does the LDS church not address this issue?

It does; see above.

If God is not the creator, then why worship him?

He is the creator, and therefore we worship Him.

If we are all of one brotherhood (for lack of a better term) is worshipping God like worshipping you?

No.

If God is within creation, he can’t be the answer and reason for everything and therefore he can’t fill my desire for the infinite any more that than any other god (of another planet) or human person?

God is within His creation as well as independent of it, and is the creator of all of it.

Does that explanation of existence satisfy your need for the meaning of life, for the meaning of your existence, for your desire to know the meaning of everything?

I think this is why I can’t find an attraction, in my heart, to the LDS claim, the fact the LDS church doesn’t address the deepest desires of my heart: Why do I exist, what is the meaning of everything, what is my purpose?

The LDS Church answers that question more completely than any other church.

@DianaIad

So which God do you worship? The God of this world (Universe) or the God he worshipped when he was a man?

I only know of one God, and one universe He created; and that is the only God I worship.

zerinus

 

[tjlarsen]

This is why it is so confusing.

Everybody I ask, gives different answers.

I can’t be 100% sure, but it seems like Joseph Smith would disagree with you on many of these points.

What is the highest level of heaven then?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

And remain so, dianaiad, for your belief is opposite to what Christians believe.

Jesus is God-made-man. Lucifer or Satan or whatever you term him is a fallen angel.

 

[zerinus]

This is why it is so confusing.

Everybody I ask, gives different answers.

The answer is to read the Book of Mormon, and judge it for yourself. No one posting here can convince you of anything.

I can’t be 100% sure, but it seems like Joseph Smith would disagree with you on many of these points.

Don’t bet on it!

What is the highest level of heaven then?

There are three heavens: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

The answer is to read the Book of Mormon, and judge it for yourself. No one posting here can convince you of anything.

First missionary challenge.

 

[tjlarsen]

The answer is to read the Book of Mormon, and judge it for yourself. No one posting here can convince you of anything.

Don’t bet on it!

There are three heavens: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial.

zerinus

Enlighten me, because I can’t find it on LDS.org.

What are the difference in a nut shell?

 

[tjlarsen]

We believe in one God, the Father, Who created all things by His Son Jesus Christ. We believe that God created all things out of preexistent matter. We do not believe creation out of nothing.

That is not correct. There have been speculations to that effect, which are not supported by LDS scripture. LDS scripture teaches that there is only one God who is the creator of all things, and that is the Father. It has not been revealed how God the Father came to be.

You are wrong. That is speculation. It is not taught in LDS scripture, and it is not true LDS doctrine.

There is no such thing as “God of our world”. God the Father created all that exists, visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth. He is the God of all worlds, not just of this world.

Our God is the supreme deity of the universe. He was not created by another God, and He does not worship any other God, and there is no other God above Him.

God created the universe. He was not created by it.

The universe was created (out of preexistent matter) by God.

By God, who created and upholds all things that exist.

God created us and is our creator.

It does; see above.

He is the creator, and therefore we worship Him.

No.

God is within His creation as well as independent of it, and is the creator of all of it.

The LDS Church answers that question more completely than any other church.

I only know of one God, and one universe He created; and that is the only God I worship.

zerinus

How do you explain this from the King Follett Sermon by Joseph Smith himself.

God an Exalted Man

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! (Doesn’t this mean he is created?)

That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. (Again, doesn’t this mean that he was created by another God?)

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; (Again, a man just like us that was created?)

and I will show it from the Bible.

 

[dianaiad]

And remain so, dianaiad, for your belief is opposite to what Christians believe.

Jesus is God-made-man. Lucifer or Satan or whatever you term him is a fallen angel.

Angels are not our brothers.

I realize that you believe this, Robert. I was simply explaining what our beliefs are, and why they are that.

Or did I miss that mormon scripture posting?

That is the fundamental perceptual handicap, dianaiad: mormonism is NOT Christianity in any common sense understanding of doctrine, dogma and salvation history.

Even Dennis Prager (who is Jewish) in his radio program in LA years back–Religion on the Line-- refused to have mormon ‘elders’ on the discussion panel. He said mormonism is not Christianity.

And, for the bemusement of us all, the Protestant ministers, Catholic clergy and Jewish rabbis, all agreed with him.

As to your quoting mormon scripture: keep it up.

It will either be a bland restatement of something from the Bible or it will contradict what your church believes.

You do us a great service, dianaiad, and for that we are eternally grateful:bowdown2:

Robert

Robert, please don’t take this the wrong way, but…you don’t get a vote in whether I am Christian or not, if “Christian” means “he who believes the truth about Christ and is ‘saved’ (whatever that means.)” It doesn’t matter how many people refuse to have us on some television panel, or how many people refuse to walk with us, or work with us, or who raise their crosses and run across the field from us. There is only One Person who can decide this issue, and you ain’t Him.

Now, if “Christian” means (as every single Dictionary of the English Language states) 1. a. One who believes or professes the religion of Christ; an adherent of Christianity. (OED)

Then we have a problem. Y’see, no Lutheran (for instance) is going to agree with the definition of all the words in a Catholic dictionary, and vice versa. Every Christian religion out there has decided that IT has the ‘really true’ idea of Who Christ is, and is “Correct” about Him, while very few others are. That’s as it should be; after all, it would be true hypocrisy to belong to one religion when one thinks another one is ‘more true.’

Now you expect me to abide by the judgment of people whose beliefs I think are wrong as to whether I ‘believe or profess the religion of Christ’…and that I don’t?

When I believe with all my heart that I DO? It’s a really dumb idea, y’know, trying to convince people who truly believe the are Christian, professing the “religion of Christ” that they aren’t.

Counterproductive. Idiotic, even. Did I mention…DUMB? If you are dealing with someone who believes as you do that only those who are CORRECT about all their ideas about Christ can be Christian, then they will, with excellent logic, tell you to stuff it; they are the Christians and you aren’t.

They could tell you, and quite rightly, that one’s Christianity isn’t a popularity contest; that it doesn’t matter how many people decide that they aren’t, if they believe they are, and CHRIST says they are when the time comes, then what you believe about it is utterly irrelevant.

In fact, given Christ’s instructions about judging falsely, you could be in a bit of trouble.

You aren’t going to have problems, you realize, if you treat other people as if they are Christians, and acknowledge that they believe they are–and it turns out that they are not. YOU believe the ‘correct’ thing, yes?

However, if you are wrong…and they really are His…oops. Or, if you are not wrong, and they are not his—but one of the reasons they are not is because they were so turned off by your intolerance, abrasive manner and refusal to acknowledge them as sincere believers that they would rather chew cow dung than be a part of something you are a part of…

then you might be in a bit of trouble, don’t you think?

Now me, I AM abrasive, it’s something I need to work on. However, I have never once insulted anybody’s beliefs, or refused to acknowledge their sincerely held belief in their own Christianity, or made fun of their religion; I respond only to the way they attack MINE.

 

[mfbukowski]

Also bukowski, perhaps you don’t remember the origins of the freemasons, where, the original mormon anointing was copied from, word for word, point for point, exactly.

They were originally a Catholic order, who distorted the teachings of the Church.

OK now let me get this straight. The original ordinances (sacraments, rites, ceremonies- whatever word you like) Jesus instituted were similar to masonic ordinances, since they were catholic ordinances. And the masons copied these, and distorted them into modern masonry.

Are you sure you are not mormon?

I would love to see your evidence that the masons copied and distorted Catholic ordinances. It would prove my case nicely.

I would also like to see ANYTHING about a masonic annointing ceremony like the one the coptic orthodox church does.

Did the Coptics copy it from the masons, or vice versa?

Bigtime call for reference.

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK now let me get this straight. The original ordinances (sacraments, rites, ceremonies- whatever word you like) Jesus instituted were similar to masonic ordinances, since they were catholic ordinances. And the masons copied these, and distorted them into modern masonry.

Are you sure you are not mormon?

I would love to see your evidence that the masons copied and distorted Catholic ordinances. It would prove my case nicely.

I would also like to see ANYTHING about a masonic annointing ceremony like the one the coptic orthodox church does.

Did the Coptics copy it from the masons, or vice versa?

Bigtime call for reference.

Yes, I knew that a Mormon would look at it this way. How about you go digging up something on your speculations.

Return and report.

 

[dianaballein]

Now me, I AM abrasive, it’s something I need to work on. However, I have never once insulted anybody’s beliefs, or refused to acknowledge their sincerely held belief in their own Christianity, or made fun of their religion; I respond only to the way they attack MINE.

I guess I attacked you when I asked my original question then.

 

[mfbukowski]

It is not a claim, it is a fact. If you dared to read what your church is telling you not to read, you would see it is so.

Our church does not tell us what not to read.

Please show me this information. Show me where the masons copied the Catholics. Show me any evidence whatsoever. Please it is important to me. Show me any evidence whatsoever. One piece. Please.

I would also love to see anything showing that the masons started as a catholic order. Anything at all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I realize that you believe this, Robert. I was simply explaining what our beliefs are, and why they are that.

Robert, please don’t take this the wrong way, but…you don’t get a vote in whether I am Christian or not, if “Christian” means “he who believes the truth about Christ and is ‘saved’ (whatever that means.)” It doesn’t matter how many people refuse to have us on some television panel, or how many people refuse to walk with us, or work with us, or who raise their crosses and run across the field from us. There is only One Person who can decide this issue, and you ain’t Him.

Now, if “Christian” means (as every single Dictionary of the English Language states) 1. a. One who believes or professes the religion of Christ; an adherent of Christianity. (OED)

Then we have a problem. Y’see, no Lutheran (for instance) is going to agree with the definition of all the words in a Catholic dictionary, and vice versa. Every Christian religion out there has decided that IT has the ‘really true’ idea of Who Christ is, and is “Correct” about Him, while very few others are. That’s as it should be; after all, it would be true hypocrisy to belong to one religion when one thinks another one is ‘more true.’

Now you expect me to abide by the judgment of people whose beliefs I think are wrong as to whether I ‘believe or profess the religion of Christ’…and that I don’t?

No one is asking you to accept “judgment”, what we’re saying is, we don’t have to call the Mormon religion Christian. You can call yourself whatever you like, but don’t expect that we’re going to agree. And don’t expect we’re going to stand by thinking how wonderful it is that Mormons want to wipe Christianity off the face of the earth and replace it with something else entirely, while calling it what it is not.

Ludicrous!

 

[mfbukowski]

Also bukowski, perhaps you don’t remember the origins of the freemasons, where, the original mormon anointing was copied from, word for word, point for point, exactly.

They were originally a Catholic order, who distorted the teachings of the Church.

I’d settle for any evidence that there even is a masonic annointing. There is none. Please prove me wrong. I challenge you.

You shouldn’t speak of things you don’t know about. It makes you look foolish.

How do you think Joseph found out about the Coptic Orthodox annointing and clothing ritual?

 

[zerinus]

Enlighten me, because I can’t find it on LDS.org.

What are the difference in a nut shell?

You will find the three heavens or kingdoms comprehensively discussed in D&C 76. That is the most authoritative source of information on the subject that exists. I can’t do better than what is taught in there.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

How do you explain this from the King Follett Sermon by Joseph Smith himself.

God an Exalted Man

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! (Doesn’t this mean he is created?)

That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. (Again, doesn’t this mean that he was created by another God?)

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; (Again, a man just like us that was created?)

and I will show it from the Bible.

The King Follett discourse is not canonized LDS scripture and is not official LDS doctrine.

zerinus

 

[mfbukowski]

Is there an LDS forum where I can ask these questions?

Google Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board

We call it MADB

It’s a long topic but if you want to pm me feel free. I am LDS and have been 30 years

But find a mormon source regardless. These folks who are not LDS don’t know beans, and will distort everything

 

[mfbukowski]

Dear tjlarson, I think the answer to ‘did God create the universe?’ is who was the first god? I’ve asked this question of many a mormon missionary and the response I’ve received is ‘that has not been revealed yet’. According to their beliefs ‘heavenly father’ was once a man living on another planet worshiping his god. After his life was over he was elevated to ‘godhood’ and given his own world. So if ‘heavenly father’ was not the first god, and his god was not the first god, then who was?

Not true