My Sister is Mormon....

[Rbt_Southwell]

tjlarsen;

Maybe you haven’t noticed, but when someone claims that their ‘church’ is a fulfillment of God’s will and that their ‘scriptures’ are equal to the Bible, it is time to call them as you see them.

If that translates as “Anger,” to you, then you have a low threshold of ire.

I am amused by mormon scripture. I HOPE and PRAY for all to come to Christ, but I do not presume mormon arguments and allegations and scripture to be equal to or better than the OT and the NT.

Are you Catholic, tj? (excuse the familiarity, but this IS an informal give-and-take venue) Do you not believe what the Church has taught through the Magisterium? Do you not address lies with the truth of Christ?

Try that approach (while praying without ceasing) and trust in God.

As to the stupidity of mormonism: it is a pantheology, it believes Jesus and Satan to be equal brothers and sons of God, who is only a God of this planet.

Sit and dine with sinners. Do not sit and dine with vipers.

Robert

 

[tjlarsen]

tjlarsen;

Maybe you haven’t noticed, but when someone claims that their ‘church’ is a fulfillment of God’s will and that their ‘scriptures’ are equal to the Bible, it is time to call them as you see them.

If that translates as “Anger,” to you, then you have a low threshold of ire.

I am amused by mormon scripture. I HOPE and PRAY for all to come to Christ, but I do not presume mormon arguments and allegations and scripture to be equal to or better than the OT and the NT.

Are you Catholic, tj? (excuse the familiarity, but this IS an informal give-and-take venue) Do you not believe what the Church has taught through the Magisterium? Do you not address lies with the truth of Christ?

Try that approach (while praying without ceasing) and trust in God.

As to the stupidity of mormonism: it is a pantheology, it believes Jesus and Satan to be equal brothers and sons of God, who is only a God of this planet.

Sit and dine with sinners. Do not sit and dine with vipers.

Robert

I am Catholic.

When did Christ refuse to “sit and dine with vipers?” He ate with Pharisees all the time, he ate with Samaritan’s, who did he refuse?

When you look at your experience, do you know anybody that was converted by arguing doctrine with them?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

QUOTE=tjlarsen;4632950]I am Catholic.

When you look at your experience, do you know anybody that was converted by arguing doctrine with them?

Yes:

Kaaren French of Brownsville, Texas
my wife
a fellow company commander while on active duty.

(I hope there were more)

Robert

PS: Arguing points and being passionate for what you believe is no sin. Calling your opponent’s views as ill-formed, ridiculous, heretical, or stupid is not the same as calling your opponent the same terms.

If you do not understand the difference, there is nothing I can do to separate your sense of self (the OBJECTIVE you) from your acquired or learned responses (the SUBJECTIVE you).

 

[tjlarsen]

I am not arguing that the discussion is invalid, but do you think you displayed Charity in the Bold, Red…

Warning ! Mormon Stupid Scripture Alert ! Warning !

Do you think this displayed a way of life and an attitude that anybody would find attractive?

And you’re certain your wife was converted based on doctrine and not on the witness of a Christian way of life?

Why would she even listen and trust the person arguing with her if she didn’t witness a way of life that was more attractive than what she was currently living?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

When did Christ refuse to “sit and dine with vipers?” He ate with Pharisees all the time, he ate with Samaritan’s, who did he refuse?
QUOTE]

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

People are never converted by a discussion of doctrine. They are always converted through a witness of a life lived.

Then you are wasting your time posting here, tj.

And, as per your prior posting, do you believe the Catholic Church to have the truth (this includes the Orthodox and all the other Rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome) or do you just “think” so as you wrote?

I am confused about your approach. It bears much resemblance to a “former Catholic” mormon troll and so I am a little wary.

Tell me I am wrong, please.

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

“Master, to whom shall we go? You alone have the words that explain life.”

tj,

You do know the above referenced quotation, right?

It pertains to the Holy Eucharist being the Body and Blood of Jesus and the way in which He is always with us, His pilgrim Church, on earth, and by which we attain Heaven after death.

Were you using it in another context? Was this meant to support a personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture? Or was this meant to illustrate how the teachings of Jesus as handed on to His Disciples and on down throughout the centuries are still valid CONTRA mormonism’s claims?

Answer please

Robert

 

[tjlarsen]

tj,

You do know the above referenced quotation, right?

It pertains to the Holy Eucharist being the Body and Blood of Jesus and the way in which He is always with us, His pilgrim Church, on earth, and by which we attain Heaven after death.

Were you using it in another context? Was this meant to support a personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture? Or was this meant to illustrate how the teachings of Jesus as handed on to His Disciples and on down throughout the centuries are still valid CONTRA mormonism’s claims?

Answer please

Robert

Let’s look at this more closely. Just before this Jesus had fed 5000 men with just a few fish and loaves. Then Him and his apostles leave this HUGE crowd by going across the sea by boat.

The next day He is in the synagogue teaching his bread of life discourses. While at the same time that HUGE crowd realizes that he is gone. They were so attracted to him that when they realized he was gone, they immediately went to find him. The find him in the synagogue and he tells them.

You are looking for me for the wrong reasons. You are looking for me because I fed you with bread. Do not look for me because I can satisfy your earthly sense of hunger, you should be looking for me because I am the only thing that can truly satisfy the desires of your heart.

He goes on to tell them about the Eucharist, the true meaning of the Eucahrist, the real presence, and almost all of them leave him calling him crazy. This crowd that had just witnessed many miracles, and they were so attracted to him that when they realized he was gone, they immediately went to find him. All of a sudden couldn’t follow any longer.

Then he says to the Apostles who remain. “Do you also want to leave?”

Peter replies, “where should we go, you alone have the words that explain life.”

It was to illustrate that only in adhereing to Christ because of his overwhelming attractiveness that we can come to the truth which is the Real Presence. If we don’t have this attraction that comes through a witness, we have to call him crazy as most of the people in that synagogue did.

 

[tjlarsen]

Then you are wasting your time posting here, tj.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

.

Why did the Church flourish at all? Because the Christian way of life, because Jesus present through the people in his church correspond to the human heart in a way that is irresistible. Before all of the formal doctrines were even completely formalized. Before the Gospels or the letters of Paul were written. It was the Christian way of life that was irresistible.

thanks for responding, tj.

Many left Him, too, and tried to kill Him because of His message and miracle working.

The Church flourished for many reasons. One primary reason is that Holy Mother Church fought its enemies who tried to change the teachings of the Church.

Non-orthodoxy was NEVER permitted to flourish alongside the early Church. Gnostics, Essenes, Unitarians, Marcionites, Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysites: all were condemned as heretics and those who returned to the Church were welcomed and forgiven.

As to your statement about Sacred Scripture: the texts supported the liturgy and thus were accepted readings for worship on the Lord’s Day. It was only when spurious and later scrolls and books circulated did the Church (through the help of the Holy Spirit) declare what texts (OT and NT) to be the canon.

Remember Pope Damasus I and the Decretal of Gelasius in 382, right?

We are here for many reasons. Witness in living and witness in words. Here the forum is language. but the stakes are just as important: mormonism is NOT a fulfillment of Christianity.

You do agree with that statement 100%, I hope?

Robert

 

[tjlarsen]

thanks for responding, tj.

Many left Him, too, and tried to kill Him because of His message and miracle working.

The Church flourished for many reasons. One primary reason is that Holy Mother Church fought its enemies who tried to change the teachings of the Church.

Non-orthodoxy was NEVER permitted to flourish alongside the early Church. Gnostics, Essenes, Unitarians, Marcionites, Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysites: all were condemned as heretics and those who returned to the Church were welcomed and forgiven.

We are here for many reasons. Witness in living and witness in words. Here the forum is language. but the stakes are just as important: mormonism is NOT a fulfillment of Christianity.

You do agree with that statement 100%, I hope?

Robert

110%

But you must also admit that most of these early heresy’s still exist under a different name and to different degrees.

So simply stating their falsehood is futile in bring people to the truth as most still exist to some extent and therefore are still being followed to some extent.

Again it is only through a human witness that awakens an overwhelming attraction, that is inherent in every single human heart, and the realization that this overwhelming desire is only fulfilled by Jesus Christ through is body, the Catholic Church.

This can only happen through the witness of a life lived.

 

[tjlarsen]

Originally Posted by Rbt Southwell
tj,

You do know the above referenced quotation, right?

It pertains to the Holy Eucharist being the Body and Blood of Jesus and the way in which He is always with us, His pilgrim Church, on earth, and by which we attain Heaven after death.

Were you using it in another context? Was this meant to support a personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture? Or was this meant to illustrate how the teachings of Jesus as handed on to His Disciples and on down throughout the centuries are still valid CONTRA mormonism’s claims?

Answer please

Robert
Let’s look at this more closely. Just before this Jesus had fed 5000 men with just a few fish and loaves. Then Him and his apostles leave this HUGE crowd by going across the sea by boat.

The next day He is in the synagogue teaching his bread of life discourses. While at the same time that HUGE crowd realizes that he is gone. They were so attracted to him that when they realized he was gone, they immediately went to find him. The find him in the synagogue and he tells them.

You are looking for me for the wrong reasons. You are looking for me because I fed you with bread. Do not look for me because I can satisfy your earthly sense of hunger, you should be looking for me because I am the only thing that can truly satisfy the desires of your heart.

He goes on to tell them about the Eucharist, the true meaning of the Eucahrist, the real presence, and almost all of them leave him calling him crazy. This crowd that had just witnessed many miracles, and they were so attracted to him that when they realized he was gone, they immediately went to find him. All of a sudden couldn’t follow any longer.

Then he says to the Apostles who remain. “Do you also want to leave?”

Peter replies, “where should we go, you alone have the words that explain life.”

It was to illustrate that only in adhereing to Christ because of his overwhelming attractiveness that we can come to the truth which is the Real Presence. If we don’t have this attraction that comes through a witness, we have to call him crazy as most of the people in that synagogue did.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Peter replies, “where should we go, you alone have the words that explain life.”

If it were only the “overwhelming attractivenesss” that causes us “to come to the truth which is the Real Presence,” then we might be in a mess of trouble, tj.

It is the Real Presence which brings us to God.

It was His words, his teachings (to the Apostles) which St Peter is referring to: not the Scriptures the Church collected for her liturgical worship of God.

Robert

 

[tjlarsen]

If it were only the “overwhelming attractivenesss” that causes us “to come to the truth which is the Real Presence,” then we might be in a mess of trouble, tj.

It is the Real Presence which brings us to God.

It was His words, his teachings (to the Apostles) which St Peter is referring to: not the Scriptures the Church collecting for her liturgical worship of God.

Robert

You cannot recognize the Real Presence in the Eucharist without this overwhelming attraction. This is exactly what happen in John 6.

Why else would you believe something that sounds so crazy?

Why else would Peter reply, “Where should we go, only you have the words that explain life.”? Peter’s saying here, “I don’t understand either, but EVERYTHING else about you (Jesus) is so attractive that there is no place else to go, so I must stay here with you and believe.”

It is the words and teachings of the Church that awaken this desire in us and fulfill this desire in us so strongly, that we HAVE to see the Real Presence, because “Where should we go, it is only in the Church that I find the witness that explains life.”

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

You cannot recognize the Real Presence in the Eucharist without this overwhelming attraction. This is exactly what happen in John 6.

Why else would you believe something that sounds so crazy? Why else would Peter reply, "Where should we go, only you have the words that explain life.?

“We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

so sayeth St Peter after your citation from St John’s Gospel.

It is belief, and belief only (what the Church calls “faith”) that gives us hope and it is these gifts from God that lead us to charity, to love.

No desire is awakened (you sound like you have been reading San Juan de la Cruz’s “La Noche Oscura” !!) unless one is already “on fire” for God.

And our views are parsecs away from mormonism’s on “communion” as an “ordinance”!

Robert

 

[tjlarsen]

“We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

so sayeth St Peter after your citation from St John’s Gospel.

It is belief, and belief only (what the Church calls “faith”) that gives us hope and it is these gifts from God that lead us to charity, to love.

No desire is awakened (you sound like you have been reading San Juan de la Cruz’s “La Noche Oscura” !!) unless one is already “on fire” for God.

And our views are parsecs away from mormonism’s on “communion” as an “ordinance”!

Robert

Agreed. But what does “on fire” for God mean. I think we are talking about the same thing.

Peter did not come to believe Jesus is God because of the Real Presense, but the other way around.

Peter is expressing his belief in Jesus as the Holy One of God as the reason for believing in the Real Presence, not the other way around.

How does he know Jesus is the Holy One of God? The previous sentence is why, because Peter has nowhere else to go only Jesus has the words that explain life. “You have the words that explain life.”

In other words, only you Jesus can fulfill all of the desires of my heart, therefore I know you are the Holy One of God, so I have no choice but to believe what you just said that sounds so crazy.

We should be friends, my email is in a previous post. Drop me a line and I’ll give you my phone number.

 

[tjlarsen]

Gotta run, so I don’t know if I’ll be able to respond any more today.

 

[dianaiad]

Warning ! Mormon Stupid Scripture Alert ! Warning !

Why thank you, Robert. My own notice that I was posting a verse out of LDS scripture for the purpose, not of proving that something is ‘true,’ but that we actually believe something and why, wasn’t sufficient. It really needed big red letters.

Gee, Dianaiad, “which is mine Only Begotten” contradicts mormon dogma that Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) are brothers.

Or was Lucifer adopted???

Robert

We believe that we are ALL of us children of God; every human being (including all the angels). In this way, Jesus is our spiritual big brother. So in that way, also, Lucifer is Jesus’ brother. He’s also yours.

Every family has problems.

However, Jesus, being the Only Begotten Son of God, is unique; being the Only Person Who is the literal, physical Son of God. In that way NONE of us are His siblings, though we are closer than Lucifer is since He was born, as the rest of us were, grew, as the rest of us have, and died, as the rest of us will. Lucifer will never do that.

I have to admit; the first time I ever heard the “Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers!” said in such an outraged and shocked manner, I was bemused. My first thought was yeah, we do, so? Aren’t we all siblings, whether we like it or not?

But that was before I was introduced to this complicated hierarchy of creatures and lifeforms that God is supposed to have created before He got around to fiddling with US.

I’m still bemused.

 

[Stephen168]

As a “Mormon”, I find your comment and assertion humorous. In reality, we believe that all men must be baptized. God, in his mercy, has created a way that baptism may be accounted to all mankind, including those who have passed on without it.

But you didn’t answer the question. See post 324

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I agree with you, we may be arguing (there’s that word!) the same point, except,

I quibble (and it is a minor quibble in the great scheme of things) with your insistence on “attractiveness” being the sine quo non of belief.

I am not attracted to Christ for the life He had lived on Earth. I could not survive, I am not worthy to think I can be like Him.

St Francis of Assisi could and did. And many known and unknown saints of our Church (including those of other ‘faiths’) have followed Jesus purposely or not in the life of the suffering servant.

Yet, I believe in Christ and in God and in the Holy Spirit. I am a sinner and do not think I will be worthy to be one with God, however, I hope and believe and pray and work towards His mercy as promised.

PM me and I will respond, tj.

God bless you.

Robert