My Statement

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All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s needs. Acts 2:44-45

The community of believers were of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that ANY OF HIS POSSESSIONS WAS HIS OWN, but they had everything in common. There was no needy person among them, for THOSE WHO OWNED PROPERTY OF HOUSES WOULD SELL THEM, BRING THE PROCEEDS OF THE SALE, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed each according to need. Acts 4:32-35

So according to the Bible and the histories of the early Christians, they were communistic. Everything they owned had to be given to the christian commune. The Catholic Church does not follow these rules. So the Catholic Church is a schism.
WRONG

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

definition from CCC
 
All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s needs. Acts 2:44-45

The community of believers were of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that ANY OF HIS POSSESSIONS WAS HIS OWN, but they had everything in common. There was no needy person among them, for THOSE WHO OWNED PROPERTY OF HOUSES WOULD SELL THEM, BRING THE PROCEEDS OF THE SALE, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed each according to need. Acts 4:32-35

So according to the Bible and the histories of the early Christians, they were communistic. Everything they owned had to be given to the christian commune. The Catholic Church does not follow these rules. So the Catholic Church is a schism.
Then why do you have “Catholic” as your religion in your profile?
 
The comment of mine you quoted does not indicate any problems with my belief in the doctrines of the Church so no clarification of what I believe is needed.
Many of your posts seem antagonistic towards anything not modern, just curious if your theology went that way. Does your refusal to answer mean you don’t hold the teachings of the Church? (Note: I say “teachings” and not “disciplines”)
 
Many of your posts seem antagonistic towards anything not modern, just curious if your theology went that way. Does your refusal to answer mean you don’t hold the teachings of the Church? (Note: I say “teachings” and not “disciplines”)
My ‘refusal’ is based on the feeling I get that you are baiting me with attempts to make me take some test of yours.

Your own post here shows there has not been anything about my actually showing I don’t hold to the teachings of the Church.
 
My ‘refusal’ is based on the feeling I get that you are baiting me with attempts to make me take some test of yours.

Your own post here shows there has not been anything about my actually showing I don’t hold to the teachings of the Church.
No, I’m not baiting you, just want to know where you stand. We all overreact at one point or another on here, it’s bound to happen considering the topics. From *some *of your posts, it seems as though you boarder with some liberal doctrinal views. I’m not trying to trap you, just want to know where you’re coming from. If I’ve misread, I am sorry. Just looking for some clarity.
 
No, I’m not baiting you, just want to know where you stand. We all overreact at one point or another on here, it’s bound to happen considering the topics. From *some *of your posts, it seems as though you boarder with some liberal doctrinal views. I’m not trying to trap you, just want to know where you’re coming from. If I’ve misread, I am sorry. Just looking for some clarity.
If I ever directly say something against Church doctrine I will be more than happy to clarify.
 
I agree. A lot more people come into this forum, the Traditional Catholic Forum, with the purpose of bashing traditionalists (thats really not a naughty word, we call ourselves that after all) then those who go over to the Liturgy and Sacraments Forum to complain about the Novus Ordo.

It is also clear that while many traditionalists will complain about the Novus Ordo itself, many neo-conservatives and liberals will take their grief out not on the traditional Mass but those who attend it.
Careful friend,
I got excommunicated by someone over on another thread for saying there were liberals and trolls among us ! I was brought to Inquisition and found guilty of whatever they decided to excommunicate me for all in the same post ! Before I was given a chance to recant !

Once they wipe us out, I think the plan is to rename the forum Call To Action or something like that . Well, the liberals I mean. The trolls hate everyone and will smell fresh meat 😛
 
Once they wipe us out, I think the plan is to rename the forum Call To Action or something like that . Well, the liberals I mean. The trolls hate everyone and will smell fresh meat 😛
A fascinating diatribe. Can you provide a Church-recognized definition of “liberal”, so that I may better understand your posts?

:confused:
 
I am trying my best to understand why people have such a hard time accepting the Church and the direction it has been heading since Vat 2. My question is this: If one were a Catholic,in the sense that one accepts what the Church teaches,then why is is so hard to accept the way Mass was changed? Would one not be in accordance with Church teaching if they continually feel the need to think “vatican 2 was wrong”? Is there some sort of mindset where the people who want the TLM think that the Church is right except in the case of the different Mass? If that is the case why not just pick and choose what else you don’t like in the Church.

Someone please help me with this because I am new to the Faith and I just can’t understand the big deal. I believe what the Church teaches so I can’t think that Church teaching is wrong just for the sake of issues I don’t agree with. I might as well go back to a protestant church where I could rally people for votes on a particular issue.

Where am I wrong and misguided in my thinking?🤷
 
I am trying my best to understand why people have such a hard time accepting the Church and the direction it has been heading since Vat 2. My question is this: If one were a Catholic,in the sense that one accepts what the Church teaches,then why is is so hard to accept the way Mass was changed? Would one not be in accordance with Church teaching if they continually feel the need to think “vatican 2 was wrong”? Is there some sort of mindset where the people who want the TLM think that the Church is right except in the case of the different Mass? If that is the case why not just pick and choose what else you don’t like in the Church.

Someone please help me with this because I am new to the Faith and I just can’t understand the big deal. I believe what the Church teaches so I can’t think that Church teaching is wrong just for the sake of issues I don’t agree with. I might as well go back to a protestant church where I could rally people for votes on a particular issue.

Where am I wrong and misguided in my thinking?🤷
You’re not wrong and misguided, IMO. You’re rightfully scandalized because schism is a scandal.

What many people object to is the way progressive liberals have taken “The Spirit of Vatican II” and run with it. The old Mass had very specific rubrics - every gesture and motion of the priest and altar assistants was clearly specified. The new Mass is less specific. And, I’m afraid that even the rubrics for the new Mass are often ignored. There’s a sense of the official liturgy being a framework to work with, and people can just add to it. A little liturgical dance here, some hand-holding there… and then it gets into things that are absolutely forbidden, such as allowing women to preach the homily, which is actually specifically forbidden in scripture. You now have priests and church administrators openly saying things that are blatant heresy. Denying the Real Presence, for example.

In the years since the introduction of the New Rite, the Catholic Church in the West has declined. Fewer people go to Mass. Meanwhile, the overall culture has become more decadent and corrupt - abortion, lewdity in the mainstream media, etc. What is the cause and what is the effect? Are people leaving the Church because the world is more secular and culture more “modern?” Or, are they losing faith because the priests and bishops on the ground are not teaching the faith?

This is seen as a crisis in the Church. Many people believe that Vatican II gave the impression that the Church was progressive and that things would naturally lead to birth control, the ordination or women, etc. And, even I can’t deny that the Novus Ordo Mass doesn’t emphasise the Real Presence as strongly as the older Mass. This is not to say that it denies it, but it does not make a huge effort to emphasize it. The Council of Trent was in reaction to the Protestant Reformation. Their chief concern was to assert and affirm the Sacraments. So, the liturgy born out of that council was geared up to make it very obvious what was happening on the altar.

There are some traditionalists who think that the Novus Ordo is bad. That could mean they think it’s invalid, or that they think it’s just defective. There are a variety of motivations for people to actually go so far as to defy the Pope and attend illicit Masses. Some just want to turn back the clock to 1950 or so. Some are just conspiracy-theory nutters or anti-semetic crazies. But, many are just people who feel betrayed by the hierarchy and would rather disobey the Pope than participate in worship they find offensive.
 
It is my understanding that this is the Traditional Catholicism forum. I would call myself a traditional Catholic in that I was born in the early 50s. I attended Catholic schools from primer to 12th grade. I was an altar boy and a chorister for most of that time. I’ve been a member of a cathedral choir for the last 25 years.

Sing a New Church is a hymn sung even to this day, right? I saw then and I see no reason now to sing a new church. There was nothing wrong with the old church. (Just my opinion).

I (and others) had our roots ripped out starting in 1966. We were fed a bill of goods. We were told that the Mass must be in English (which is contrary to what HMC was saying). How many of you actually went through the transition in the mid-60s? How many of you remember the two week notices we got? In two weeks …we will no longer chant the Gloria in Latin…in two weeks we will no longer say the Creed in Latin…in two weeks we will no longer say the Confiteor…in two weeks every option …I’ve been here. I’ve done that. If you think that the NO then bears any resemblance to the OF today, guess again.

I spent no little part of the early 70s in the Navy. Mass on base was as about a straightforward as you could come in English. In the mid-70s (when I came back) I attended a “less than 30 minute NO” vigil Mass. In 1976 I moved here to attend grad school and I discovered the cathedral parish. The principal mass at 10:30 on Sunday was lucky if they had 75 people there.

Married DW in 78 and we moved out to her parish. I dearly loved the pastor but running down from the altar to “schmooze” during the sign of peace is just not what I knew.

In 1983 I was invited to sing in the cathedral choir by a paid chorister who was a co-worker. ( Our Lord moves in mysterious ways). Hoo boy! Latin! I have not looked back.

There is an assumption that everyone of my generation loved the NO. It is not true. We were not allowed time to think. We were handed from on high what would happend with or without our approval. It was a fait accompli.

When I was in the Navy, I took the time to visit a local church in Rota, Spain. My spoken Spanish is marginal. The priest came out and asked me what I was doing there.? I told him that I was an altar boy and was visiting Our Lord. (I’m not making this up) He asked me “Introibo ad altarae Dei” to which I answered "Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam). 1971 boys and girls 1971 and in another country. He took me and showed me all of the sacred relics of this church. That, my brothers and sisters, is being Catholic. Et unam sanctam Catholicam egliesiam.
Sir, what is being Catholic is to believe in the Catholic faith. Faith must come before the Mass, as the Mass is the worship and expression of a living faith. It is of no avail (the Mass) if one does not hold the Catholic faith. It is sacrilegious.
 
Sir, what is being Catholic is to believe in the Catholic faith. Faith must come before the Mass, as the Mass is the worship and expression of a living faith. It is of no avail (the Mass) if one does not hold the Catholic faith. It is sacrilegious.
We believe what we pray, and when the Mass is diluted, so is the Faith, as we’ve seen throughout the years.
 
If I ever directly say something against Church doctrine I will be more than happy to clarify.
I don’t want to search back to my original question, but I’m sure I didn’t ask if you said anything against Church doctrine. My question was: do you accept Church doctrine, whole and entire?
 
I don’t want to search back to my original question, but I’m sure I didn’t ask if you said anything against Church doctrine. My question was: do you accept Church doctrine, whole and entire?
I have never indicated that I did not accept Church doctrine, whole and entire as shown by no one pointing out anything I have said that goes at it. By asking me (and no one else) without a reason to do so - other than to test me - makes me concerned about your motives.
 
I have never indicated that I did not accept Church doctrine, whole and entire as shown by no one pointing out anything I have said that goes at it.
To be fair… I sometimes want to know this about someone I’m talking to, myself. If someone is a sedevacantist, I wanna know! I need to know where they’re coming from.
 
To be fair… I sometimes want to know this about someone I’m talking to, myself. If someone is a sedevacantist, I wanna know! I need to know where they’re coming from.
LOL - the last thing I have ever demonstrated possibly being is a sedevacanist!

Do you ask such things without someone saying/doing something particular to that group?
 
LOL - the last thing I have ever demonstrated possibly being is a sedevacanist!

Do you ask such things without someone saying/doing something particular to that group?
I didn’t mean to say that you struck me as a sede vacantist. That was an example of the sort of thing I sometimes feel I need to know up front if I am going to have a productive debate with a Traditionalist. If I’m talking to a progressive/liberal, I may need to clarify, “Wait, do you believe homosexuality is a sin?” or “Do you believe women should be ordained?” so that I’ll know where they’re coming from.

Sometimes, if I am in doubt, I will ask someone to clarify their position on a basic position so that I can better understand where they are coming from. Of course, I would hopefully ask in a non-accusatory tone.

I don’t have a position on your discussion with latinmasslover here. I just noticed that you evaded answering the question. You certainly don’t have to answer to anyone here what your religious beliefs are.
 
I didn’t mean to say that you struck me as a sede vacantist. That was an example of the sort of thing I sometimes feel I need to know up front if I am going to have a productive debate with a Traditionalist. If I’m talking to a progressive/liberal, I may need to clarify, “Wait, do you believe homosexuality is a sin?” or “Do you believe women should be ordained?” so that I’ll know where they’re coming from.

Sometimes, if I am in doubt, I will ask someone to clarify their position on a basic position so that I can better understand where they are coming from. Of course, I would hopefully ask in a non-accusatory tone.

I don’t have a position on your discussion with latinmasslover here. I just noticed that you evaded answering the question. You certainly don’t have to answer to anyone here what your religious beliefs are.
See my feeling is latinmasslover is asking to put me on the spot - not to get any clarification on something said.

In another thread I pointed out a error - possible heresy - and another poster wanted me to affirm my belief in Church doctrine.
The request came out of context of anything said - the person just wanted to test/embarass/whatever.

IF/WHEN I post something contrary to the Faith, HMC etc THEN such questions are appropriate.
 
I am trying my best to understand why people have such a hard time accepting the Church and the direction it has been heading since Vat 2. My question is this: If one were a Catholic,in the sense that one accepts what the Church teaches,then why is is so hard to accept the way Mass was changed? Would one not be in accordance with Church teaching if they continually feel the need to think “vatican 2 was wrong”? Is there some sort of mindset where the people who want the TLM think that the Church is right except in the case of the different Mass? If that is the case why not just pick and choose what else you don’t like in the Church.

Someone please help me with this because I am new to the Faith and I just can’t understand the big deal. I believe what the Church teaches so I can’t think that Church teaching is wrong just for the sake of issues I don’t agree with. I might as well go back to a protestant church where I could rally people for votes on a particular issue.

Where am I wrong and misguided in my thinking?🤷
This is part of an ongoing problem, and is especially visible on a public board such as this.
While there are those who do hold with VatII being wrong, the majority of people have accepted, at least in principle, VatII.
Some of the confusion now has come from the issuance of the Motu Proprio on the use of the TLM. One of the main reasons for the issuance of the document was to try and make it clear from Rome that the TLM is NOT in invalid mass. A lot of this has to do with the ongoing discussions between Rome and the SSPX.
The Holy Father wants it to be clearly understood that, where a population exists that wants the TLM, the bishop needs to make every reasonable effort to accomodate them. If they don’t it simply risks driving them into an SSPX or sedavacanist church.
The MP on the TLM has the added advantage of giving those persons who prefer the TLM, but stayed with the church through the changes to the NO, the option to attend a TLM (now called the Extrordinary Form - (EF)) that is in perfect communion with Rome.

Despite all the arguing back and forth, there is only one thing that will ultimately resolve these things, and that is time.

Peace
James
 
I have never indicated that I did not accept Church doctrine, whole and entire as shown by no one pointing out anything I have said that goes at it. By asking me (and no one else) without a reason to do so - other than to test me - makes me concerned about your motives.
Are you that paranoid? Why won’t you just answer the question? Having spoken with numerous liars, your answers, or rather lack thereof, suggest deceit.
 
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