My Statement

[peregrinator_it]

I am glad there are a couple non-crickets on this thread…

One of my goals is to try to be a voice of reason and compromise between the “factions” so often seen here.

Snip

… the N.O. is a perfectly wonderful rite in and of itself when it is properly and reverently celebrated.
Perhaps, if the N.O. had not been so “experimented with” but rather had been carried forward with the sense of reverence that so many find in the EF, we wouldn’t have the issues we have today.

I’m not against debate as such, but the squabbling on this forum gets so petty and nasty because many Traditionalists would never acknoweledge your second statement above as valid, or even postulate it for the sake of discussion.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I am glad there are a couple non-crickets on this thread…

I’m not against debate as such, but the squabbling on this forum gets so petty and nasty because many Traditionalists would never acknoweledge your second statement above as valid, or even postulate it for the sake of discussion.

I just did. Makes perfect sense and BTW the experimentation started as early as 1970.

 

[JRKH]

I am glad there are a couple non-crickets on this thread…

**I’m not against debate as such, but the squabbling on this forum gets so petty and nasty **because many Traditionalists would never acknoweledge your second statement above as valid, or even postulate it for the sake of discussion.

Agree - Lucifer rubs his hands with glee when he sees this sort of thing, and Jesus can only shake his head and wonder…

I see the pettiness coming from both sides, not just the Traditionalists. The problem on a board like this is that there really isn’t any clearly defined “sides” to any given debate. Everyone comes from their own particular positon and faith system and we generally do’t know what that is specifically.
We hear from peole who love the N.O. and see no reason to deal with the TLM. We see folks who think that either is fine, and then there are those who only want the TLM.

We here from folks in perfect union with Rome and those who are not but, in most cases, posts are not clarified as to this position. It all becomes a jumbled mess.

The fact is that there is no reason for the NO side to feel threatened by the TLM side and there is no reason for the TLM folks to feel threatend by the NO folks. Honestly, if one feels that threatened, they should reconsider their own faith and fidelity to the Church since the Church has declared BOTH rites to be right (pun intended).

Peace (please)
James

 

[the_phoenix]

Good greetings, perigrinator_it.

Nice posts. Glad you’ve entered the thread to help tone things down a bit so that this issue can be discussed with the respect it deserves.

You remind me of my family when it comes to being fine and in some cases inspired with the use of either English or Latin at Mass, so long as the Mass is reverent.

My elderly grandfather has kept for years a Roman Missal, which he is giving to me now that he’s in a nursing home, but he has never to my knowledge spoken about being interested in attending a Latin Mass. His late wife loved attending daily Mass with him … they went to the Novus Ordo, and she was very happy to go.

My father is friends with a Catholic author whom I’ve seen mentioned once as a thread topic here at CAF, and dad likes to describe this author-friend in admiring tones as being someone who loves the Latin Mass and listening to Gregorian Chant music. My mother is a strong follower of the Pope … and she prefers Mass in English, wondering why anyone would want to go to Mass in a foreign language they don’t understand, but supportive of my being drawn to the TLM.

Me, I love the Latin Mass, attend it downtown when I can, am overjoyed by Pope Benedict’s “Motu Proprio” … and I also belong to a Novus-Ordo parish with a reverent English-language Mass and a Perpetual Adoration Chapel.

So I basically sum it up as:

English for those who want it.
Latin for those who want it.
Reverence for all.

~~ the phoenix

 

[brotherhrolf]

English for those who want it.
Latin for those who want it. Reverence for all. ~~ the phoenix

If only this could be the case. I do attend a reverent OF cathedral parish and have for the last 25 years. I have been a choir member for most of those 25 years. I’ve already told my story about having to use the 1940 Episcopal hymnal to sing the sequences in English so I won’t repeat that. My parish has a significant number of us who were baptized before 1955 and who remember the Latin of our childhood - not to mention the traditional hymns which are never heard in many local parishes today. And, as I have pointed out, as a downtown church we had 200 registered parishoners in 1983. We now have 2,000 families. (And no people have not moved back downtown). We must be doing something right.

Do I want to go back to an exclusive Tridentine liturgy? No. But would a monthly Solemn High Mass in Latin with choir be such a bad thing? Remember my bishop merely “acknowledged” the MP and followed it up with a scathing editorial about the MP from the chancellor who said “nobody wants it”. I don’t know about you but I get tired of being treated like 'chopped liver". Fr. Chancellor doesn’t want it. Our bishop doesn’t want it. But it doesn’t mean that there is not a significant number of people in the diocese who do want it. Remember 200 in 1983 - 2,000 families in 2008. There is a reason for this…

 

[the_phoenix]

Good greetings, brotherhrolf.

You make good points and I’ve been following your story.

You end your most recent post with "There is a reason for this … "

IMHO, the reason is spiritual warfare.

I could tell you a story involving my own diocese and what an eye-opening experience that was … If you’d be interested you can PM me, because it’s not something I’m willing to share with just anyone … I’d have to trust the person based on having long experience of reading their posts here at CAF. You’re someone I’d feel comfortable sharing with.

Please don’t be discouraged by the naysayers, or to put it in Tolkien terms, the Grima Wormtongues of the world.

And I would encourage you that if you are at all able to travel some weekend on your own personal retreat or pilgrimage to a Latin Mass, it would give you quite a boost.

Traveling from Cleveland, OH to Ann Arbor, MI this past December for a weekend retreat hosted by a new order called the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist gives me tremendous encouragement and hope for the future of young vocations to religious life, and I was moved to tears when they played a video of Pope John Paul II which included audio of him reciting the Rosary in Latin.

PAX ET BONUM,

~~ the phoenix

 

[brotherhrolf]

Good greetings, brotherhrolf.

You make good points and I’ve been following your story.

You end your most recent post with "There is a reason for this … "

IMHO, the reason is spiritual warfare.

I could tell you a story involving my own diocese and what an eye-opening experience that was … If you’d be interested you can PM me, because it’s not something I’m willing to share with just anyone … I’d have to trust the person based on having long experience of reading their posts here at CAF. You’re someone I’d feel comfortable sharing with.

Please don’t be discouraged by the naysayers, or to put it in Tolkien terms, the Grima Wormtongues of the world.

And I would encourage you that if you are at all able to travel some weekend on your own personal retreat or pilgrimage to a Latin Mass, it would give you quite a boost.

Traveling from Cleveland, OH to Ann Arbor, MI this past December for a weekend retreat hosted by a new order called the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist gives me tremendous encouragement and hope for the future of young vocations to religious life, and I was moved to tears when they played a video of Pope John Paul II which included audio of him reciting the Rosary in Latin.

PAX ET BONUM,

~~ the phoenix

Thank you! :tiphat: I have a Benedictine Monastery about an hour’s drive away that I have gone to since I was a kid and throughout my adult life. It is so hard to get a reservation and every time I do something comes up at work and I have to cancel.

 

[CatholicCid]

I said some of you posts have suggested that maybe you’re not in line with Church doctrine.

You continuously avoiding to answer a simple question proves what I suspected.

What is there to be embarrassed about if you truly accept every doctrine? How are you being put on the spot, how are you being trapped? This is called paranoia. If you accept all the teachings, the answer is “yes, I accept all the teachings of the Church, whole and entire.” If the answer is no, I totally understand why you don’t answer. This isn’t as difficult as you’re making it out to be.

As I sit back, enjoy my popcorn, and follow along, I must say you peaked my interest long enough to make me reply…

It first reminded me of a movie I saw the other night, where the main character was asked the same questions you asked Eilish Maura, to which the character responded something along the lines of “If I didn’t believe, I would have no problem lying and saying yes then.”

As you said, several of Eilish Maura’s post made you question his belief in Transubstantiation, Praying the Rosary, Kneeling before God, ect… Could you cite the posts in this thread? I’ve been following along since it started but seemed to have missed these subtle hints of his.

And it does appear to be a trap my friend. Re-read your call for an answer here. If he does, he must say yes. If he does not say yes, that clearly means no. In reality, saying no would mean no. Not responding just means the question is not worth the dignity of a response.

 

[Derbingo]

QUOTE]

Wait, wait. I was around in those times. You are saying that attendance at Mass suddenly dropped off to 75 people?

What kind of tripe is this? If that were the case the Bishops would have reversed themselves immediately. There would have been no case for the Participated Mass, as it was called. The Kiss of Peace was wonderful, the Priest sharing this blessing with the faithful, where as before, he shared it with noone.

You can have your latin mass if you want. If there are 75 people there that would be a lot. Back to silence, back to readings no one can understand, back to ‘keeping our worship’ to ourselves.

 

[cecilia97]

Brotherhrolf, thanks for sharing your story with us. All of your points are valid.

I’m 32, and it confuses me why there is so much controversy over this. Maybe I’m pollyanna…I think it’s wonderful that we live in a time when we have the promise of more options between the NO and, hopefully, more and more TLMs soon.

I’m also blessed, though…my parish is an orthodox, reverent NO parish with a wonderful pastor and we are hoping to have TLM soon. We have access to the TLM in our diocese, as well as a beautiful and reverent Angilican Use liturgy, which I’ve come to think of as the “middle ground”.

Strangely, I’m the only person in my family with the least interest in the TLM. My parents are way older than you, Brother. They were married in the traditional rite and had a baby baptized before V2 happened. I tell my mother and father about the excitement around the possibility of a TLM at my parish, and they see it as an anthropological learning experience, not something to attend every week. And they are not liberal by any stretch. They just sort of see it as going “back”, I suppose. They went through all the upheaval once and I don’t think they have the energy to do it again.

They did have love for the TLM. My mother first attended Mass with my father in the early 50s when they were dating. She was Methodist. She’s described to me an experience similar to being “slain in the Spirit” the first time she walked into a Catholic church and heard the gorgeous singing and the beautiful art. It hit home with her and brought her to Rome! She says she thought “I never saw any people who put so much energy and love into how they worshipped God before”. But the church changed and she changed with it, I suppose.

The people I know at my parish who are most excited about the TLM are the 30-somethings.

I mentioned it with gleeming eyes to some older friends at the parish and one said they hpe we don’t go back to that. They are scared of more change. Been there, done that.

I’ll go with whatever the Church says. I think it would be great if everybody had a choice. I hope everyone does soon. But I hate to see it dividing us.

Brother, I understand that you were hurt. The people in the Church do mess up quite a bit. But we need people like you and your enthusiasm for the Faith…don’t give up on us!

 

[the_phoenix]

You can have your latin mass if you want.

Why thank you! In fact, this is the aim of Pope Benedict’s “Motu Proprio.”

If there are 75 people there that would be a lot.

Then there’s a lot of people where I attend the Latin Mass.

Back to silence,

I LOVE IT! :extrahappy:

Well, not total silence. There IS the beautiful choir at High Mass. And …

I LOVE IT! :extrahappy:

back to readings no one can understand,

The readings are given in both Latin and English where I attend the Latin Mass.

back to ‘keeping our worship’ to ourselves

Yeah, it would be nice if there were more convenient parking available. It would also be nice to see the Latin Mass become more widespread, so that we wouldn’t be keeping it to ourselves, but rather sharing it with as many people possible. In any case, the good news is that the Latin Mass IS spreading to more and more locations, as you can see by visiting the following website:

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

Stay tuned … this website updates every several weeks or so to give you the most current NEW LOCATIONS for where the Latin Mass is offered.


~~ the phoenix

 

[JRKH]

(snip)

You can have your latin mass if you want. If there are 75 people there that would be a lot. Back to silence, back to readings no one can understand, back to ‘keeping our worship’ to ourselves.

I have attended the EF in Cincinnati for several months and 75 would be the least I ever saw there. This mass regularly attracts 120 or more every week. There are additional EF’s in Dayton and in Northern KY. In addition there is an “Traditional” parish (not sure of their affiliation although the pastor was ordained by Marcel Lefebvre in '75-'76) that has over 600 parishoners, plus a SSPX chapel in Cincinnati.

Yes I will take “my” EF thank you.
Back to reverence
Back to glorious music
Back to sermons of meaning and depth
Back to humility
Back to contemplative worship.

Oremus
James

 

[brotherhrolf]

brotherhrolf;3407589:

QUOTE]

Wait, wait. I was around in those times. You are saying that attendance at Mass suddenly dropped off to 75 people?

What kind of tripe is this? If that were the case the Bishops would have reversed themselves immediately. There would have been no case for the Participated Mass, as it was called. The Kiss of Peace was wonderful, the Priest sharing this blessing with the faithful, where as before, he shared it with noone.

You can have your latin mass if you want. If there are 75 people there that would be a lot. Back to silence, back to readings no one can understand, back to ‘keeping our worship’ to ourselves.

Tripe? Um, no. It was a function of two events. First and foremost is that the downtown of Baton Rouge was abandoned. You had all of us state workers who were downtown during the day but when work stopped at 4:30, downtown was abandoned. As a further extension, very few people elected to live downtown - certainly not enough for a viable parish.

The second event is that even though I had to get permission from my geographical parish to join the cathedral parish in 1983, by 1987 membership in the cathedral parish was opened to anyone in the diocese.

Back to silence - Deo gratias! It sure beats having to listen to the benefits of Preparation H coming from the greeters in the vestibule of my geographic parish. Readings no one can understand? Our readings and psalm are all in English and if you are talking about the pre V II Mass, unless I was halucinating as a child, the Epistle and the Gospel were always read in English and I followed along in my Missal. I don’t know about “keeping our worship to ourselves”. I was an altar boy and when I was not on the altar I followed along in the Missal and it was a dialogue Mass. You must be thinking about my great grandmother who said her rosary during Mass - course she’d probably say her rosary today. That was the norm at the turn of the last century.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brotherhrolf, thanks for sharing your story with us. All of your points are valid.

I’m 32, and it confuses me why there is so much controversy over this. Maybe I’m pollyanna…I think it’s wonderful that we live in a time when we have the promise of more options between the NO and, hopefully, more and more TLMs soon.

I’m also blessed, though…my parish is an orthodox, reverent NO parish with a wonderful pastor and we are hoping to have TLM soon. We have access to the TLM in our diocese, as well as a beautiful and reverent Angilican Use liturgy, which I’ve come to think of as the “middle ground”.

Strangely, I’m the only person in my family with the least interest in the TLM. My parents are way older than you, Brother. They were married in the traditional rite and had a baby baptized before V2 happened. I tell my mother and father about the excitement around the possibility of a TLM at my parish, and they see it as an anthropological learning experience, not something to attend every week. And they are not liberal by any stretch. They just sort of see it as going “back”, I suppose. They went through all the upheaval once and I don’t think they have the energy to do it again.

They did have love for the TLM. My mother first attended Mass with my father in the early 50s when they were dating. She was Methodist. She’s described to me an experience similar to being “slain in the Spirit” the first time she walked into a Catholic church and heard the gorgeous singing and the beautiful art. It hit home with her and brought her to Rome! She says she thought “I never saw any people who put so much energy and love into how they worshipped God before”. But the church changed and she changed with it, I suppose.

The people I know at my parish who are most excited about the TLM are the 30-somethings.

I mentioned it with gleeming eyes to some older friends at the parish and one said they hpe we don’t go back to that. They are scared of more change. Been there, done that.

I’ll go with whatever the Church says. I think it would be great if everybody had a choice. I hope everyone does soon. But I hate to see it dividing us.

Brother, I understand that you were hurt. The people in the Church do mess up quite a bit. But we need people like you and your enthusiasm for the Faith…don’t give up on us!

I’m not going to give up, I’ve waited 40 years for this and I have to point out that I don’t have it yet. The thing that floors me is that I am in no way asking for everyone to return to the reverence of the past or to Latin. I am, however, asking that I have that option at my local geographic parish. Driving 25 miles one way for 25 years to find a reverent OF parish says something in my opinion. I’d settle for a reverent OF vigil Mass on Saturday. Sad to say that that Mass and the 8am Mass on Sunday morning (which used to be bastions of a reverent OF) are every bit as happy-clappy, turn around and introduced yourself to your neighbor…as the 10 am principal Mass on Sunday.

I grew up with the Latin Mass. I attended Catholic school from primer (aka K) through 12th grade. The Mass changed in my senior year of high school. I wasn’t the only one of my class who didn’t like it. There were those in my generation who protested the Vietnam War and embraced the NO with open arms. There were those of us who didn’t and who didn’t protest because that was antithetical to the way we were raised. Forty years later that which was taken away is now restored. And look who is protesting.

 

[peregrinator_it]

English for those who want it.
Latin for those who want it.
Reverence for all.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I’m going to ignore all the other sniping on this thread and try and underscore JKirk’s position (which I happen to agree with strongly) and which is denied implicitly in brotherhrolf’s original posts. I’m using latinmasslover’s quote above as it’s a good jumping off point.

Now, since you all are sharing anectdotal evidence, here’s another piece for your picture:

I’m a member of Generation X. I grew up surrounded by the toxic secular culture of the 1980s SF Bay Area. Literally none of my extended family is Catholic (both my parents are converts.) I attended public schools (off & on) and a very CINO college, and had a more than ordinary share of personal trials as a child/teenager (which I’m not going to discuss on public forum, so you’ll have to take my word for it.)

Although I was born into a Catholic household and baptized as an infant, I should not be Catholic. Deprived of the “superior” TLM and pre-Vatican II Catholic culture, and exposed to more than the usual worldly temptations & pressures, I should have (if some on this thread are to be believed) fallen away. A “diluted” Mass surely could not keep a person in the Church.

And yet, I’m very aware that what kept me in the Church was my parish, and its liturgy, which literally fed me. If you had asked me this at age 12, I would have given you the same answer I am giving now.

Thanks to my parish, I can not only translate the last three words of brotherhrolf’s orginal post, [btw that should be *unam sanctam ecclesiam

] I can tell you in which prayer of the Mass those words are found. I’m blessed that, through attending the “Novus Ordo,” I can chant the Mass (and for me antiphonal chant is a treasure, a most effective form of prayer.)

But I run into difficulties because there just aren’t words that do justice to the profound affect the “Novus Ordo” had on me. Nothing I can say expresses it properly; my efforts above seem paltry, ineffective, and I realize that many of the “Traditionalists” on this thread will simply disbelieve me. I can only add that though my parents and fellow parishoners did their best to catechize me, I was an average kid. I listened with half an ear, at best, to what they said, and misunderstood a fair portion of what I heard. But the liturgy was so obviously a source of truth and beauty to me (even as a child) that I would have pointed to it as evidence of the goodness of the Church and reason for faithfulness.

I have experienced the reforms without the abuse of the reforms and not alone, the vast majority of my peers from my parish are still faithful Catholics (those who could afford to (cost of living in the Bay Area is just obscene) have stayed in the parish and I now see them at church with their children.)

While I do not call myself a Traditionalist, I am an heir to and lover of the liturgical and cultural patrimony of the Church just as much as those who love the EF, as also are those who attend the Ordinary Form but frequent this forum. I am frustrated by, saddened by, and irritated with the baseless implication that only Traditionalists care for the traditions (small “t”) of the Church, and that all other Catholics cannot have a share in them.

And I’m further irritated by the awareness that the sound of internet crickets chirping is all the response this post is likely to get.

Okay, the NO parish you were in taught and used Latin and antiphonal chant? Your parents were converts who actually tried to catechize you in the faith? Do you realize how unusual your situation was? (To say the least; you probably do). So no, I’m not surprised that you remained Catholic.

I am reminded of talking to a Priest at a Catholic High School a few years ago who noted that while a number of the students would attend Mass at the High School (it may have been required) from his experience most of them dropped Mass attendance as soon as they left High School.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Since we’ve been discussing the debates and controversies generated over these issues I want to give my own ideas on why they exist and why they will continue.

Usually when people discuss (and care enough to discuss) issues such as the liturgy, church architecture, communion in the hand and other issues they do not hold that they are a mere “preference” as if one choice or another is just as good. The positions are held because they are seen as objectively better regardless of how much “interest” is shown in one position or what someone’s preference is. I am reminded of Dietrich von Hildebrand’s writings on values and their objectivity. In other words, you give a proper response (whether it be worship, reverence, respect, agreement, etc.) to something, whether it be God, a work of art, a liturgy, etc., based on its objective value, which may or may not line up with a particular person’s preference. So I say Mozart is a better musician than Britney Spears. I realize of course there are probably more people in the U.S. who (in recent times) have bought and listened to Britney Spear’s music rather than Mozart’s. And who will say they prefer her music over “boring” Mozart. Yet according to von Hildebrand’s depiction of values one would say their response is wrong. Mozart’s music is objectively better and people should recognize that. Recognizing that it follows that one should desire that Mozart’s music have a greater dominance in our culture because it is better and thus better for our culture and our lives.

Hence when I argue for the TLM, I am arguing that it is better than the NO. And once that assertion is made, it then stands to reason that these aren’t arguments over neutral items like what color we should have for the paint in the parking lot. It is an argument which at least implies that yes, since the TLM is better, I hope and pray it one day replaces the NO as I deem that ultimately better for the Church. As an aside, I recognize there are political considerations a Pope must take into consideration and thus it may not be wise to simply replace the NO with the TLM at once as that might give a number of Bishops apoplectic fits.

This is just to say that ultimately this is not really an argument about preferences, but rather what people deem to be best for the Church in the long run. And hence it will be a passionate discussion because just as people care about things like education (and not just the education of their own children unless they are rather myopic and selfish) so too people care and will debate passionately about these issues for a long time coming (or should I say, indefinitely).

 

[brotherhrolf]

I grew up with the EF being the normative Mass. I was an altar boy when the OF was introduced. There was no OF in Latin…it was “two weeks from now we will cease saying the Confiteor in Latin and a month after that it was the Gloria”. Funny how all the prayers in Latin that we didn’t say in Latin, we said in Latin. How many could chant the Pater Noster even though the OF is almost note for note the Latin…or used to be or should be…When was the last time you heard the Confiteor in English…thirty years or so for me.

And here I am forty years later in a reverent OF cathedral parish with two sons age 26 and 23 who have never experienced the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ common to everyone else. Neither has experienced a TLM but the oldest wants me to take him to a Solemn High Mass down in NO because our bishop here has merely “acknowledged” the MP. I have my missal which I got in 1963 and I have his mother’s missal which she got in 1960.

I am an anthropologist by training. I want my children to experience what I experienced and their grand parents, great grand parents, great great grandparents, etc. experienced.

My grandparents would be appalled if they had to attend Mass at my local geographic parish (both of them died before 1965) (1957 and January 1965). They would be disconcerted at my cathedral parish but completely astounded at my local geographic parish. To be honest, they might think that they were at a Baptist service rather than a Catholic Mass.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Okay, the NO parish you were in taught and used Latin and antiphonal chant? Your parents were converts who actually tried to catechize you in the faith? Do you realize how unusual your situation was?

I fail to see how the unusuallness of my situation is relevant to the discussion. (And I have pointed out that it wasn’t unique; I know a good number of people my own age (& younger) from my own parish and from other parishes who had similar experiences.)

I also fail to see why the Church cannot support more than one form of the Roman Rite. It has supported multiple Eastern Rites for at least a thousand years.

It is possible within the same Faith for there to be different cultures and optics all of which are valuable. Witness the co-existence of religious orders; each has its own culture and practices, but none feels it necessary to insist that they have the one true way of doing things.

 

[brotherhrolf]

You are absolutely correct my friend. There is NO reason why HMC cannot support two rites. I am a member of a cathedral choir. We routinely sing chant and Latin motets. The parish understands these. We have a priest who was ordained before Vatican II and is perfectly capable of celebrating a sung Solemn High Mass. We have men who are perfectly capable of assisting at a Solemn High Mass (myself included).

So what is the problem? Our bishop who merely “acknowledged” the MP. Followed by the Chancellor of the diocese who published an op-ed in the diocesan newspaper which said “no one wants the MP”. As a human resources professional, this is called the “chilling effect”.

What harm would there be in a once a month Solemn High Mass with choir in my cathedral parish? Should I forget my ancestors in Ireland, Scotland, and England who suffered for their faith…for being Catholic? Things are OK now but they weren’t way back when. Do we forget the sacrifices our ancestors made?