My thoughts on evolution

[buffalo]

They are quite harmonious in a biological sense and in a sociological sense. That some may view them uncomfortably I have little control over. Being adults and of good character they may argue as they wish.

Faith and reason have to be harmonious with the truth and Revelation.

 

[The_Barbarian]

You missed the snag. You have to dispense with the teachings about our first parents. That is a huge problem.

Not for a Catholic. You see, there’s no need to dispense with our first parents. They are completely compatible with evolutionary theory. You really think the Pope would miss something like that?

 

[SeekingCatholic]

Every once in a while I cast all caution to the wind so here goes.

Not a good idea. Spouting prejudices, even politically correct ones, is no way for any scientist to be taken seriously. I’ve enjoyed your posts on this forum up until this one.

If I think the science of evolution changes anything in the Church it is this. Male sacredness is just crud when evolution gets done with it. female gender is the preferred body type

No, the default body type. Your prejudices are already showing with your use of language.

and if anything interferes with that delicate trip to male formation, the developing embryo/fetus reverts back to female gender.

No, it doesn’t “revert” back to female. It just failed to fully develop as a male.

female is the first morphogenetic type seen in multicellular organisms while male gender shows up much much much later.

Yeah, and?

Females are guarded better than males during their entire life cycle biologically, better immune systems, better fat distribution.

Really? Females have different antibodies, different clonal selection mechanisms, and so on? Better fat distribution for what purpose? Why do females get cold much easier than males?

While fertilizations are 50/50, live births are already 1:0.75 in favor of females and by the time reproductive age is reached the ratio is almost 1:0.6 so males are definitely the weaker sex.

Where did you pull these figures from? Are there really 10 girls for every 6 boys in high school?

Females have stronger parenting behaviors than males. Females make better nurturers.

Uh-huh. That explains why children raised by single mothers just do so wonderfully. Father absence is in fact one of the strongest, or the strongest, predictor for juvenile delinquency, teen pregnancy, and other pathologies.

If God took any body’s rib it would have been Eve’s in the biological book. Male has always been the throw away sex and paid the price.

Uh-huh. Tell me, was civilization invented by males, or females? Who created most of the art and composed most of the music? Who was responsible for most of the scientific breakthroughs?

Females have always scared males to death since when a male bleeds they die while it seems to have no affect on females (no moaning about cramps ladies).

So I guess men can’t donate blood because they will die. And I guess when females donate blood they can give upwards a gallon per individual. Oops…

If Sacred Scripture tells us anything about gender it is that women stayed while men ran so there is little wonder why early church leaders felt the need to tell women to sit down and shut up. No one wants to be reminded of weakness.

Too bad the telling women to “sit down and shut up”, as you put it, also appears in Scripture. Oh, and the women weren’t threatened with death. The men were.

When Jesus was asked about divorce He told the pharisees that “Moses, because you were a stiff necked people gave you divorce but I tell you…” I would have to say the same thing about His being male because we were and still are a stiff necked people.

And females are just sooo much better. Right.

You may massacre me now.

Certainly. I have absolutely zero tolerance for male-bashing in any form - if anything, I have greater contempt for men who do it than women - and the attempt to lend a “scientific” veneer to it puts you in the same category as scientific racists.

 

[The_Barbarian]

I’d have to say Chuck is pretty close to the truth on this. More males than females are conceived, but more females than males survive to be born. At almost every age, males die at a higher rate than females. We all start out as females, and get modified to become males, by a tiny bit of DNA at the end of the male chromosome.

We are, in the scheme of things, expendable, and this is why males have always been willing to step up and sacrifice their lives to protect their families. It’s what we do. We can be nurturing, and we can be something more than mere providers and protectors. But that is what we are, by the nature God made, and that is sufficient.

If this is male bashing, I can’t see how. There is honor and courage and decency in being male. Physically we are stronger, but we break more often. That’s how it is.

 

[Chuck_H]

Not a good idea. Spouting prejudices, even politically correct ones, is no way for any scientist to be taken seriously. I’ve enjoyed your posts on this forum up until this one.

No, the default body type. Your prejudices are already showing with your use of language.

No, it doesn’t “revert” back to female. It just failed to fully develop as a male.
Yeah, and?

Really? Females have different antibodies, different clonal selection mechanisms, and so on? Better fat distribution for what purpose? Why do females get cold much easier than males?

Where did you pull these figures from? Are there really 10 girls for every 6 boys in high school?

Uh-huh. That explains why children raised by single mothers just do so wonderfully. Father absence is in fact one of the strongest, or the strongest, predictor for juvenile delinquency, teen pregnancy, and other pathologies.

Uh-huh. Tell me, was civilization invented by males, or females? Who created most of the art and composed most of the music? Who was responsible for most of the scientific breakthroughs?

So I guess men can’t donate blood because they will die. And I guess when females donate blood they can give upwards a gallon per individual. Oops…

Too bad the telling women to “sit down and shut up”, as you put it, also appears in Scripture. Oh, and the women weren’t threatened with death. The men were.

And females are just sooo much better. Right.

Certainly. I have absolutely zero tolerance for male-bashing in any form - if anything, I have greater contempt for men who do it than women - and the attempt to lend a “scientific” veneer to it puts you in the same category as scientific racists.

Relax

This was a test. I figured a lot more would jump on this and I am surprised more didn’t.

The science is sound enough.
If you would like I can supply several articles and web citations that support the biological data. Males drop off and the ratio does favor women in numbers. The only population pyramids to show roughly equal women to men ratios are those of rapid population growth where shere numbers swamp differences. Female gender is the preferred gender by selection since males are not required in steady state to maintain a population and females are. It is only the lowest K organisms where sex genetics do result in intersex states. Even in humans androgen insensitivity results in a female phenotype that is so close to normal most are not diagnosed until well into the teens. Women are experimentally known to be less susceptible to cold and to infection mortality. In general women are more genetically fit not due to any womens lib manifesto but to the extra X. Our Y does little to help us but having two X chromosomes protects women from all sorts of genetic conditions and many housekeeping genes are not turned off in the X inactivation process, only the ones that would be deleterious in diploid number .

Thats the science. After that, it is how you state it.

And just for the record, you know what bleeding I refer to. I think you just got a little reckless in your fury.

 

[Chuck_H]

I’d have to say Chuck is pretty close to the truth on this. More males than females are conceived, but more females than males survive to be born. At almost every age, males die at a higher rate than females. We all start out as females, and get modified to become males, by a tiny bit of DNA at the end of the male chromosome.

We are, in the scheme of things, expendable, and this is why males have always been willing to step up and sacrifice their lives to protect their families. It’s what we do. We can be nurturing, and we can be something more than mere providers and protectors. But that is what we are, by the nature God made, and that is sufficient.

If this is male bashing, I can’t see how. There is honor and courage and decency in being male. Physically we are stronger, but we break more often. That’s how it is.

Pretty close, but like I said this was a test. If I kept my post specifically genetic then I doubt if Seeking would have been so upset. I wanted to see if people would jump on the overstep into “sacred” territory. I was kind of disappointed that I got was a finger wag from Buffalo. In a way this is a little of what we do when we defend evolution against someone who needs (Needs) Genesis creationism for their faith. The direct attack isn’t there, but the silent attack is. It is a quandary.

 

[Chuck_H]

Oh, by the way

Anyone know what day this is?

 

[drpmjhess]

Every once in a while I cast all caution to the wind so here goes.

You may massacre me now.

Great post, Chuck! I like incautious males – sort of like a Gallipoli charge, hell bent for leather and glory.

 

[Chuck_H]

Great post, Chuck! I like incautious males – sort of like a Gallipoli charge, hell bent for leather and glory.

Read on Macduff. it ain’t over yet.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Gallipoli? Trench warfare, and creeping advances?

This is caution to the winds:

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/images/fredtrlg.jpg

The Fighting 69th assaulting Marye’s Heights at Fredericksburg. Confederate General Pickett wrote to his wife:

“The brilliant assault of their Irish brigade was beyond description. Why, my darling, we forgot they were fighting us, and cheer after cheer at their fearlessness went up along our lines.”

 

[mapleoak]

Every once in a while I cast all caution to the wind so here goes.

If I think the science of evolution changes anything in the Church it is this. Male sacredness is just crud when evolution gets done with it. female gender is the preferred body type and if anything interferes with that delicate trip to male formation, the developing embryo/fetus reverts back to female gender. female is the first morphogenetic type seen in multicellular organisms while male gender shows up much much much later. Females are guarded better than males during their entire life cycle biologically, better immune systems, better fat distribution. While fertilizations are 50/50, live births are already 1:0.75 in favor of females and by the time reproductive age is reached the ratio is almost 1:0.6 so males are definitely the weaker sex. Females have stronger parenting behaviors than males. Females make better nurturers.
If God took any body’s rib it would have been Eve’s in the biological book. Male has always been the throw away sex and paid the price.
Females have always scared males to death since when a male bleeds they die while it seems to have no affect on females (no moaning about cramps ladies).
If Sacred Scripture tells us anything about gender it is that women stayed while men ran so there is little wonder why early church leaders felt the need to tell women to sit down and shut up. No one wants to be reminded of weakness.
When Jesus was asked about divorce He told the pharisees that “Moses, because you were a stiff necked people gave you divorce but I tell you…” I would have to say the same thing about His being male because we were and still are a stiff necked people.

You may massacre me now.

I would comment, but I cannot get my composure to come back.

 

[mapleoak]

I’d have to say Chuck is pretty close to the truth on this. More males than females are conceived, but more females than males survive to be born. At almost every age, males die at a higher rate than females. We all start out as females, and get modified to become males, by a tiny bit of DNA at the end of the male chromosome.

We start as females and then we are modified to become males. I see.

 

[mapleoak]

You missed the snag. You have to dispense with the teachings about our first parents. That is a huge problem.

Right - faith and reason cannot be opposed for they flow from the very same God.

Couldn’t have said it better.

 

[The_Barbarian]

We start as females and then we are modified to become males. I see.

Yep. It’s why you have nipples (assuming you are male) and it’s why all the male parts are modified female parts. We complete the change about halfway through gestation.

**Fetal sexual differentiation is a very complicated series of events actively programmed, at appropriate critical periods of fetal life, which involves both genetic and hormonal factors leading to the sexual dimorphism observed at birth (Table 1). Sexual differentiation is achieved at midgestation. Genetic factors and hormonal factors will alternate in this chain of programmed transformations of the primary gonads, the internal sex structures and the external genitalia. Sex chromosomes promote the development and the differentiation of the primary gonad but the decisive influences are the presence or absence of testosterone and of antimüllerian hormone production by the testis. Femaleness results from the absence of any masculinizing genetic factor or hormone acting during the critical period of differentiation. Brain and hypothalamic sexual identities are mainly acquired during postnatal life. Gender and behaviour identities are markedly influenced by psychosocial imprinting.

Sexual differentiation is conformed in the human during four successive steps: the constitution of the genetic sex, the differentiation of the gonads, the differentiation of the internal and the external genital tractus and the differentiation of the brain and the hypothalamus.**
gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Human_sexual_differentiation.html

It’s why we can get a whole range of physical types in children exposed to too much or too little of various factors in utero. There is, however, a genetic identity of gender, which is located at the end of the Y chromosome. In some rare cases of crossovers between paired X-Y chromosomes at meiosis, you can have XX males.

 

[The_Barbarian]

You missed the snag. You have to dispense with the teachings about our first parents. That is a huge problem.

Neither Pope Benedict XVI, nor Pope John Paul II thought so. Is is possible that they are better theologians than you are?

 

[mapleoak]

We start as females and then we are modified to become males. I see.

Yes, I know, one has to make certain assumptions to answer this question properly.

Yep. It’s why you have nipples (assuming you are male) and it’s why all the male parts are modified female parts. We complete the change about halfway through gestation.

Not really true. Both male and female parts develop from neutral or undifferentiated parts.

 

[SeekingCatholic]

Relax

This was a test. I figured a lot more would jump on this and I am surprised more didn’t.

The science is sound enough.

No, it isn’t. And most of what you said wasn’t science but merely supporting your prejudices. Everyone would be all over you if you used science to promote the inferiority of women, or blacks. I am not going to give you a pass merely because your prejudice happens to be politically correct.

If you would like I can supply several articles and web citations that support the biological data.

I highly doubt it, except for the well-known processes of sexual differentiation. But go ahead.

Males drop off and the ratio does favor women in numbers. The only population pyramids to show roughly equal women to men ratios are those of rapid population growth where shere numbers swamp differences.

But not by nearly as much as you claim! There aren’t 10 girls for every 6 boys in high school.

Female gender is the preferred gender by selection since males are not required in steady state to maintain a population and females are.

That’s just silly and an example of your own biases. Yes, indeed, natural selection pressure is going to operate more strongly on females in terms of survival to reproductive age. But you’ve completely forgotten about sexual selection. And saying that females are “preferred” in some aesthetic sense is not science but mere prejudice.

It is only the lowest K organisms where sex genetics do result in intersex states. Even in humans androgen insensitivity results in a female phenotype that is so close to normal most are not diagnosed until well into the teens.

So?

Women are experimentally known to be less susceptible to cold and to infection mortality.

Experimentally? I’d like to see the experiment. Was it controlled for all factors?

In general women are more genetically fit not due to any womens lib manifesto but to the extra X. Our Y does little to help us but having two X chromosomes protects women from all sorts of genetic conditions and many housekeeping genes are not turned off in the X inactivation process, only the ones that would be deleterious in diploid number .

You do happen to know that a self-repair mechanism was found for the Y chromosome, do you not? Yes, it’s true, males are susceptible to X-linked conditions.

But genetically fit means genetically fit only for survival to reproductive age. We’ll take a society without males, or very few males, without all our wonderful modern technology (invented by men) and see how far women’s “genetic fitness” takes them. Adult men are far more “genetically fit” for survival in harsh conditions, as you well know, and women are dependent on men for survival in those conditions. You of course only use genetic fitness insofar as it supports your own biases.

Thats the science. After that, it is how you state it.

And the way you stated it puts you in the rank of “scientific” sexists, just like the “scientific” racists of old.

And just for the record, you know what bleeding I refer to. I think you just got a little reckless in your fury.

And I don’t care what you think, your post was and is disgusting and thoroughly unprofessional.

 

[mapleoak]

Okay, I regained composure, so here goes:

If I think the science of evolution changes anything in the Church it is this.

Science doesn’t change anything in the Church. Our understanding develops as a result of science.

Male sacredness is just crud when evolution gets done with it.

Not even sure what this means.

female gender is the preferred body type

Your personal preference is hardly science.

and if anything interferes with that delicate trip to male formation, the developing embryo/fetus reverts back to female gender.

Could you give an example of this occuring where
a partially formed male embryo reverts to being a female.

female is the first morphogenetic type seen in multicellular organisms while male gender shows up much much much later.

and this proves what?

Females are guarded better than males during their entire life cycle

Of course generally it has been considered honorable of men to guard and honor the female counterparts.

biologically, better immune systems,

this of course is totally false and unsupportable. Actually rather than taking my word for it, I challenge you to support it.

better fat distribution.

Okay, you got me there. Unstump my confusion, please.

While fertilizations are 50/50, live births are already 1:0.75 in favor of females and by the time reproductive age is reached the ratio is almost 1:0.6 so males are definitely the weaker sex.

Funny, I never noticed. Where on earth did you come up with that one?

Females have stronger parenting behaviors than males.

In what way? Please do explain.

Females make better nurturers.

Nurturing is qualitive of female nature. What does this prove?

If God took any body’s rib it would have been Eve’s in the biological book.

So, did Moses get it wrong?

Male has always been the throw away sex and paid the price. Females have always scared males to death since when a male bleeds they die while it seems to have no affect on females (no moaning about cramps ladies)…

The rest of it, I don’t think I can get enough composure back for, and don’t believe it is worth my or anyone elses time.

 

[Chuck_H]

I would comment, but I cannot get my composure to come back.

The trouble with threaded mode is that the posts get lost.
Check out 143, 144, and 145. It may clear things up

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.