My understanding of Mohammad

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nablaise said:
Yes, I think I heard that one of his first followers was a Christian.

I also think that it could also be said that Mohammad himself was a sort of Christian (in the sense that he believed in Jesus). Just a sort of non-denominational Christian I think.
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Huh? Did you not already establish that his religion was pure monotheism (i.e., he was one of the حنباء) and not Christianity?
 
Different “renderings” of the Qur’an have never resulted in a change in the meaning. They kinda just show the awesomeness of صرف but don’t change meanings.

The Qur’an in fact has not been “changed.”

And I think if you learn the Arabic language, you’ll see why the tradition exists to use it–not in an elitist or exclusive way (because children can learn it anywhere for free, it’s hardly either) but because it’s the best way to understand what God revealed.

Translations are allowed in any language, but Muslims have the integrity to know that the Qur’an, which still exists in its original form, is not (not cannot be) fully encompassed by any other language.
 
nablaise said:
Sister Amy

“say not, Three”

This sound prudent, as if he is not himself sure what Christians are talking about.
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This ayah made me leave Christianity. And it’s why I’ll never be a Christian. To me it’s absolutely amazing.

After reading pages and pages of debates about the Trinity among Christians, you have no idea the clarity this ayah brought me. Frankly, I don’t think Christians are even all sure what the Trinity is talking about. But what I understood from the ayah is that they can all be assured that as soon as they dive into the discussion about it, they’re actually leaving الصراط المستقيم, the “way” and the “truth” and the “light” too. And from the perspective of Islam (and mine too) it would be better for them all to leave it and return to pure monotheism, and to understand Jesus’s true place in religion.
 
Sorry, your question there isn’t getting straight in my mind. Could you rephrase?
 
Is that what I was doing?

I thought I was explaining my interpretation of the ayah.
 
What is tawassul?

In Islam, all worship is due to only God. In the prayer Muslims say every day, they read at least 17 times the following: اياك نعبد و اياك تستعين: You (Allah) ALONE do we worship, and from You (Allah) ALONE do we seek help.
 
I edited my post. I’m not trying to break rules here, so recommend more changes if you think they’re appropriate.
 
I guess all I can tell you is that from what I’ve been taught, across the country by various scholars from various schools around the world, disagrees with what was expressed at that link (except for the first three points at the top.) Rather, what I have been taught is the following:

Tawassul as it is understood by many of the Muslims of later times, which is calling on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and seeking his help (or seeking the help of the dead and so-called awliya’). This is a form of major shirk, because calling on or seeking help from anyone other than Allaah with regard to something that that only Allaah is able to do is a kind of worship, and directing worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah is major shirk. And Allaah knows best. - Sh. Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid (islam-qa.com/en/ref/979)
 
Sister_Amy said:
I guess all I can tell you is that from what I’ve been taught, across the country by various scholars from various schools around the world, disagrees with what was expressed at that link (except for the first three points at the top.) Rather, what I have been taught is the following:

Tawassul as it is understood by many of the Muslims of later times, which is calling on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and seeking his help (or seeking the help of the dead and so-called awliya’). This is a form of major shirk, because calling on or seeking help from anyone other than Allaah with regard to something that that only Allaah is able to do is a kind of worship, and directing worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah is major shirk. And Allaah knows best. - Sh. Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid (islam-qa.com/en/ref/979)
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That does seem to be a very common opinion among Muslims today. However, for centuries the practice seems to have been pretty common–isn’t it one of the things that the Wahhabis found so objectionable about Islam as commonly practiced in the late 18th century? Didn’t they in fact massacre quite a lot of Muslims over these issues?

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
That does seem to be a very common opinion among Muslims today. However, for centuries the practice seems to have been pretty common–isn’t it one of the things that the Wahhabis found so objectionable about Islam as commonly practiced in the late 18th century? Didn’t they in fact massacre quite a lot of Muslims over these issues?

Edwin
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I couldn’t say.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Actually, it shows you that Abraham was not always truthful. And that seems to be your standard for prophethood.

And you proved yourself that sometimes a lie can be preferred over the truth, and not everything that can be called a lie is simply evil, or even wrong. In other words, sometimes lying might be okay.
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Actually, there are times when lying is okay. For example, let’s say that a child, who is being chased by evil men, runs into a house and asks to be hidden. When the men bang on the door, and ask if the child is there, is it not okay for the homeowner to lie, and to say no, in order to save the child?

Not everything in life is black-and-white, or simple, with simple explanations. This applies also to the acceptance of the Holy Trinity - it is something that the human mind cannot quite wrap itself around. There are mysteries of the faith that are difficult to understand, though religions that are somewhat simplistic will perhaps have a great appeal, of course.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Huh? Did you not already establish that his religion was pure monotheism (i.e., he was one of the حنباء) and not Christianity?
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If you mean when I said the Hanif, I don’t think this contradict this. I think it is possible to have a Hanif Christians. Unless I got Hanif wrong…

I don’t claim to have my words as eternal truth set in stone. I can change and improve anytime. I am learning and researching after all. Plus, I can express something improperly.

God bless
 
nablaise said:
If you mean when I said the Hanif, I don’t think this contradict this. I think it is possible to have a Hanif Christians. Unless I got Hanif wrong…

I don’t claim to have my words as eternal truth set in stone. I can change and improve anytime. I am learning and researching after all. Plus, I can express something improperly.

God bless
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Christians believe in divinity of Jesus. Muhammad did not. All you can imagine he believed in regarding Jesus was that he was a Messenger of God. According to Christians, that belief isn’t sufficient to make one a Christian.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Christians believe in divinity of Jesus. Muhammad did not. All you can imagine he believed in regarding Jesus was that he was a Messenger of God. According to Christians, that belief isn’t sufficient to make one a Christian.
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Not all Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus.
 
Sister_Amy said:
This ayah made me leave Christianity. And it’s why I’ll never be a Christian. To me it’s absolutely amazing.

After reading pages and pages of debates about the Trinity among Christians, you have no idea the clarity this ayah brought me. Frankly, I don’t think Christians are even all sure what the Trinity is talking about. But what I understood from the ayah is that they can all be assured that as soon as they dive into the discussion about it, they’re actually leaving الصراط المستقيم, the “way” and the “truth” and the “light” too. And from the perspective of Islam (and mine too) it would be better for them all to leave it and return to pure monotheism, and to understand Jesus’ true place in religion.
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I am not so sure you left Christianity, after all, that same ayah speaks of Christ/Messiah and it does not look like it is denying his reality, it is only confused about his full identity and this is very common to (all those who claim to be) Christians. 😉

As about articulating the reality of God, it starts by realizing ‘what God’ is before realizing ‘who God is’. You see, all people are aware of God, otherwise it would be unfair for them to be judged. The difference is the care they take in relating to him. And this affect the articulation of their creeds.

For now, let’s me just proclaim that God is a unity not a unit.

Ps. I was watching the stories about Egypt. When one Muslim man was expressing how touched he was by the solidarity among the Muslim and the Christians, he was crying out loud: “in Egypt, the Muslim and the Christian are not two men, they are one”, he repeated it several times. When I looked at him, I say to myself, “This guy is going Christian, he is only not aware of it, I wish that fire could keep on burning” 🙂

You see, Faith is mostly a matter of the heart. Just as authentic light shines from a flame where there is energy(power) at the core. In matter of religious Faith, it is not so much the head that sees but the heart.

God bless
 
nablaise said:
I am not so sure you left Christianity, after all, that same ayah speaks of Christ/Messiah and it does not look like it is denying his reality, it is only confused about his full identity and this is very common to (all those who claim to be) Christians. 😉

As about articulating the reality of God, it starts by realizing ‘what God’ is before realizing ‘who God is’. You see, all people are aware of God, otherwise it would be unfair for them to be judged. The difference is the care they take in relating to him. And this affect the articulation of their creeds.

For now, let’s me just proclaim that God is a unity not a unit.

Ps. I was watching the stories about Egypt. When one Muslim man was expressing how touched he was by the solidarity among the Muslim and the Christians, he was crying out loud: “in Egypt, the Muslim and the Christian are not two men, they are one”, he repeated it several times. When I looked at him, I say to myself, “This guy is going Christian, he is only not aware of it, I wish that fire could keep on burning” 🙂

You see, Faith is mostly a matter of the heart. Just as authentic light shines from a flame where there is energy(power) at the core. In matter of religious Faith, it is not so much the head that sees but the heart.

God bless
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You may continue that line of thinking with other Christians and let them bicker it out of you.
 
Sister_Amy said:
You may continue that line of thinking with other Christians and let them bicker it out of you.
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Thanks for warning me.
I just checked my post over, I notice that I need to point out this for now:
It is not all who claim to be Christians who are confused about the identity of Chris, it is some. I used the word ‘all’ to point out that all who claim to believe in Christ can be seen as Christians. However, they wildly differ about the different aspects of Christ.

It certainly helps to reduce confusions when some of those who are wrong don’t claim the Christian name.
 
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