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ADouglass
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Also, does anything from Mohammad say anything about whether we have free will or not?
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I still don’t know what verse you’re talking about. I had to look it up on Google (where else to begin?) and found a Wikipedia article which included the following (yeah, I’m quoting Wikipedia: Classical and modern hadith scholars have rejected the story, with some declaring it as fabrication (mawdu’), pointing out in their arguments against the factuality of the incident that the chains of transmission (isnads) by which the story was transmitted are all very weak (daʻif).[1][2][3][4] Modern historians say there are grounds for doubting much of the accuracy of the history.
In other words, the people who study such things think it was made up. (And it’s definitely not in the Qur’an.)
And as for the other point, it makes me really happy to see the communities various faith leaders standing together like that.
I had to deal with some vandalism in another place that I lived and looking back, I’m not sure that the Muslim community dealt with it in the best way (they may have overreacted). I unfortunately was on the news about the event, but when I encountered people who had seen me on TV they all expressed sentiments of support, regardless of their or my religion.
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josesiem
Guest
I wish the killing of apostates ahadith were considered to be fraudulent, but afaik, all legal schools accept them and prescribe death for those who dare to leave Islam. Even al-Ghazali, whom I greatly respected, advocated death for apostates.
This simple fact alone blows the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace meme out of the water.
This simple fact alone blows the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace meme out of the water.
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ADouglass
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Does the online version of the New Haven Register lack front page news that was on the paper version? If this is the case, then I understand why I am unable to find said news on the website. nhregister.com/news/New_Haven/
Has this thread die died?
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schaick
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Yes I thought that also.
Can you say this about you and they? In one case the person is talking directly to the you and in the they case telling another person.
How do you reconcile they lied and they were lied to? He killed and he was killed?
The Quran is very vague- way too many pronouns- needs names!!
How can people truly understand the Quran without reading the Holy Bible first?
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schaick
Guest
“Asma bint Marwan” was a woman. She revealed who Mohammad really was - insulted him. Mohammad had her killed.
Mohammad in his prime reminds me of the Mafia.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Amy…I believe its in the Hadith. Written within -100 years after Mohammads death. In other words the earlier version? OK, I see she was breast feeding not pregnant. So she commited adultery?
Yes, I realize muslim scholars are contesting the authentity etc. So its not in the newer Hadith?
ADouglas…Yes the on-line is slightly different than the papers. I have to do an on-line search. To compare.
Yes, I realize muslim scholars are contesting the authentity etc. So its not in the newer Hadith?
ADouglas…Yes the on-line is slightly different than the papers. I have to do an on-line search. To compare.
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Sister_Amy
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It’s not even in the Hadith. It’s written in another book (from at-Tabari) which supposedly drew from another book (from Ibn Ishaq) which doesn’t even exist anymore, and neither of the authors did any checking or verification of the reports.
Hadith is a very specific science, and a lot is required of something before it can be classified at any level of authenticity. This account that you’re talking about isn’t in the hadith, even, not even at the weakest level. In fact, the scholars are saying that it’s entirely fabricated, made up. In other words, it’s a lie.
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LtTony
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Let’s keep our eyes on the ball. I think the important part is not the story of Asma bint Marwan, but that those who insult Mohammad are to be killed.
Is that a lie, Amy?
The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) becomes a Kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed.
In the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wa sallam) prohibits the killing of women in war. (note: in Islam a women can only be put to death if she commited murder as crime)
Therefore, based on the evidences, we can therefore conclude that the killing of Asma’ bint Marwan are false.
However, the stories of Ka’b ibn al-Ashraf and Abu Rafi’, due to speaking ill against and insulting the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) are found authentic in Bukhari.
The killing of Kaab Ibn Ashraf, Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html
The killing of Abu Rafi, Bukhari :Volume 5, Book 59, Number 371:
cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html
muftisays.com/qa/question/2144/asma-bint-marwan.html
Is that a lie, Amy?
The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) becomes a Kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed.
In the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wa sallam) prohibits the killing of women in war. (note: in Islam a women can only be put to death if she commited murder as crime)
Therefore, based on the evidences, we can therefore conclude that the killing of Asma’ bint Marwan are false.
However, the stories of Ka’b ibn al-Ashraf and Abu Rafi’, due to speaking ill against and insulting the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) are found authentic in Bukhari.
The killing of Kaab Ibn Ashraf, Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html
The killing of Abu Rafi, Bukhari :Volume 5, Book 59, Number 371:
cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html
muftisays.com/qa/question/2144/asma-bint-marwan.html
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Sister_Amy
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I have been waiting for MONTHS, literally for months, for someone to bring this up.
I have a modern comparison: Anwar al-Awlaki. Here’s a guy that the US government is targetting for assassination. He’s an American citizen who was imprisoned in Yemen (not sure why) and when he got out, he’s been there in Yemen inciting people to violence and terrorism against the US government.
So what do YOU think, is it legal for the US to assassinate him? Should they try?
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dzheremi
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Exactly how apt is that comparison, though? Is al-Awlaki taunting and insulting America from his perch in Yemen, or is plotting to attack it and kill people in it/from it? If America had the thin skin of Muhammad and his followers, vast parts of the world (cough most of Europe and the Middle East cough) would be obliterated without so much as a second thought.
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LtTony
Guest
Exactly, dzheremi.
Sadly, amy doesn’t see the distinction.
Next time, Amy, rather than “waiting for literally moths”, just bring up the subject you’d like to discuss. This isn’t an ambush game; we’re trying to reach understandings here, or at least hear another person’s point of view. Why so coy?
Weird.
“A guy…an American citizen.” He is not just plotting “against the US government,” he wants to kill Americans.
What is your opinion of Al?
BTW, there was a reason for his arrest: “On August 31, 2006, al-Awlaki was one of a group of five people arrested on charges of kidnapping a Shiite teenager for ransom, and involvement in an al-Qaeda plot to kidnap a U.S. military attaché”
“Al-Awlaki was charged in absentia in Sana’a, Yemen, on November 2 with plotting to kill foreigners and being a member of al-Qaeda.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki#In_Yemen.3B_2004.E2.80.93present
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki#Targeted_killing_lawsuit_against_the_U.S.
usnews.com/news/articles/2010/11/22/hunting-down-anwar-al-awlaki-public-enemy-no-1
To answer your question: Al should be captured, not assassinated. Our country is at war with him and his companions.
Now how about answering mine: is it true that people who insult Mohammad are to be executed?
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Sister_Amy
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He’s not just taunting and insulting, but he’s not plotting himself either. Rather, he is encouraging other people to plot.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
You missed the point. The reason I wait, with these kind of nuanced arguments, is because not everyone is capable of understanding them. In fact, I think most aren’t. If I just bring it up and people start a thread insulting Muhammad as creatively and obscenely as possible. Out of dozens of posters, there are a couple who can understand why I’d bring these two issues together. And I want to discuss it with them, and only with them (not with someone too immature to think about it.)
And I bring it up to learn. This comparison only occurred to me months ago when a poster named Reuben was discussing Ashraf b Kaab (very intellectually, I might add–I’m sure he knows much more about the subject than I do, or even you do; too bad he’s not here). But at that time another poster was arguing a different thought and so it wasn’t appropriate. So I waited, sure someone (like you) would bring it up again.
And the cases are extremely similar, in my mind.
Lots of people insulted Muhammad and didn’t get killed. So these couple of cases, if they are in fact authentic, can become really interesting areas of study. And I actually completely changed my opinion on this a while ago (which is why I’ve been so eager to discuss it–I’m learning from this discussion.)
In this case, someone wasn’t just insulting Muhammad. He was inciting people to violence. To terrorism against the Muslim “state” if you will. Anwar al-Awlaki isn’t just “insulting” America. He’s calling people to violence.
The cases are soooooooooo similar in my mind. So similar. Awlaki has been targeted In the interest of “national security,” yes? He’s not actually involved in the terrorist plots, but he’s calling other people to them.
And those who were targeted for assassination by the Muslim state were doing the same. They were responsible for inciting treasonous behavior, violence, even what we call today terrorism against the Muslims.
The cases are so similar. The point now is to try to view them objectively and in the same light. Is one okay but not the other?
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dzheremi
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Amy, it must be hard to be one of the only people of a high enough intellectual capacity to understand things. Please, may we eat the crumbs that fall from your table like the little dogs we are? 
Or wait…maybe it’s NOT actually that complicated, and there’s no need for gnostic thinking in framing a simple argument on the internet. It seems pretty clear to me, in between searching for scraps, that you want to draw a favorable parallel between contextually-justifiable actions taken by America and contextually-justifiable actions taken by Muhammad. I do not see them as at all analogous, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what you’re likely getting at. (Or a genius to get it wrong, in case you have some completely different reason for bringing it up, in which case please do share it.)
Or wait…maybe it’s NOT actually that complicated, and there’s no need for gnostic thinking in framing a simple argument on the internet. It seems pretty clear to me, in between searching for scraps, that you want to draw a favorable parallel between contextually-justifiable actions taken by America and contextually-justifiable actions taken by Muhammad. I do not see them as at all analogous, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what you’re likely getting at. (Or a genius to get it wrong, in case you have some completely different reason for bringing it up, in which case please do share it.)
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Sister_Amy
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Actually, I already drew the parallel. That was the easy part. I want to discuss it and expand on the idea with someone who can honestly criticize the idea instead of just insulting me and my faith.Amy, it must be hard to be one of the only people of a high enough intellectual capacity to understand things. Please, may we eat the crumbs that fall from your table like the little dogs we are?
Or wait…maybe it’s NOT actually that complicated, and there’s no need for gnostic thinking in framing a simple argument on the internet. It seems pretty clear to me, in between searching for scraps, that you want to draw a favorable parallel between contextually-justifiable actions taken by America and contextually-justifiable actions taken by Muhammad. I do not see them as at all analogous, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what you’re likely getting at. (Or a genius to get it wrong, in case you have some completely different reason for bringing it up, in which case please do share it.)
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lampstand
Guest
It has been said by some writers that Mohammad may have been an apostate Christian; he may have belonged to the Nestorian sect or something on that order. Just to play the ‘what if’ game with history, how much would be different if someone had managed to convert him to the Catholic faith?
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nablaise
Guest
Unfortunately there was no Catholic in the area. All Christians around (Ethiopia, Yemen, and North Arabia) were from various heretic sects. If he heard of Cathoicism, it must have received a description not very different from the one you could here from various protestant denominations.It has been said by some writers that Mohammad may have been an apostate Christian; he may have belonged to the Nestorian sect or something on that order. Just to play the ‘what if’ game with history, how much would be different if someone had managed to convert him to the Catholic faith?
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ADouglass
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Yes. Just think about what is involved in this: no I, just a we. So if someone says something, the group can claim it said it, or a person besides the person who said it in the group can claim he said it, or one group can say it said it about another group, etc.
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LtTony
Guest
No, they are not similar. And it illustrates the problem of mixing politics and religion: Mohammad the politician is beyound reproach because of Mohammad the religious leader.
Not a good combo, imo.
So I didn’t miss your point.
Again, is it true that people who insult Mohammad are to be executed?
Again, what is your opinion of Al-A?
This is an incomplete thought, and possibly an incomplete sentence. Are you implying I have insulted Mohammad? Have Ceative and obscene" insults been used earlier in the thread?
Speaking of “creative” insults… "because not everyone is capable of understanding them. In fact, I think most aren’t… (not with someone too immature to think about it.) "
Oh, the hypocrisy.
We don’t know that. Many people could have been killed for crossing Mohammad in some way or another. We could just as easily say that the murders weren’t recorded. So let’s not speculate. We know this: he killed some people, spared others.
But it begs the original question (which you haven’t directly answered): is it true that people who insult Mohammad are to be executed?
I don’t care about Ashraf b Kaab or the woman mentioned earlier. I’m asking the question above.
He’s been involved; read the links. And the authorities haven’t released most of their info on him.
What do you think of al-A?
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