My wife will never submit to me...should that matter?

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holy face said;

“St. Paul would maintain what he said as a general rule because he said it and it is part of infallible scripture. But I think it really goes without saying if the husband is a drug addict, mentally disabled, or wants to prostitute you then he should not be listened to.”

Exactly–this means that we are in agreement that there are limitations on wifely obedience.

I think a difficulty here is that as a guy you are thinking in terms of the husband’s duty to servant leadership. That’s all very well for you, but it’s not that helpful to the wife who has to think about what the parameters are for obedience. She has to think about what the limits are and when there are conflicting duties to family welfare. There are some that are obvious, if you think about it. My husband, for instance, insists on bike helmets for the kids when they’re rollerskating. I think that is incredibly dorky and unnecessary, but it’s not a danger to the kids. Likewise, he insisted on helmets for the kids when we went downhill skiing a few years ago. I also thought that was dorky and unnecessary initially (we didn’t do that when I was a kid in the 1980s), but when we got to the resort, I discovered that now lots of people wear helmets. He won those two and I’m sure it was a very good thing, especially the ski helmets. On the other hand, there was a time (before we had an actual diagnosis) when he didn’t believe that our oldest child was autistic. If I had just said, “OK honey, whatever” and done nothing for that child, I would have been derelict in my duties as a mother and we could have done her a lot of unnecessary harm. My husband also tends to let his clothes deteriorate very seriously. If I were to let things take their natural course, he’d go to work looking like a homeless guy and it could have very serious consequences for his career and reputation. I don’t think he’s bought himself a new piece of clothing in the last 10 years. Those two, I won–we’ve done a very thorough job of remediating our oldest child, and I buy him new clothes without asking him if he thinks he needs new clothes and even when he assures me that his literally ragged shirts and pants are just fine.

I think we have to be extremely concrete and detailed about particular situations in order to figure out what our actual duties are. It’s no good just quoting Ephesians 5, because that doesn’t give you much guidance with regard to with regard to weighing conflicts between different duties.
 
Again:
He promulgated the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the light of Tradition, **authoritatively **interpreted by the Second Vatican Council. He also published several volumes as a private Doctor.
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And:
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
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It is hoped that local catechisms and various catechetical supplements in use in the particular Churches would be examined** to ensure their complete conformity** with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[27] Should a catechism or supplement be found to be not totally in accord with the Catechism, or should some lacunae be discovered, new ones should be developed, following the example of those Conferences which have already done so.
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vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20120106_nota-anno-fede_en.html
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Yes we are in agreement, there definitely is a limit. We have to obey all of what St. Paul says in his passage, loving, submitting to, and serving your wife as a benevolent leader of the family, not an autocrat, abuser or someone who will bring the family to ruin. In that case the wife certainly can step up because the husband has not fulfilled his responsibilities.
 
On second thought, I don’t think that my husband has bought any new clothes since I met him back in the late 1990s. He has bought several pairs of shoes during that time, though.

(I just asked my husband, and he reminds me that he bought a hat in 2006 or so and he has gotten quite a number of free t-shirts over the years. He also mentions that he has bought sunglasses and work gloves from time to time.)
 
Walking_Home said:
Again:

And:
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*CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

It is hoped that local catechisms and various catechetical supplements in use in the particular Churches would be examined to ensure their complete conformity with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[27] Should a catechism or supplement be found to be not totally in accord with the Catechism, or should some lacunae be discovered, new ones should be developed, following the example of those Conferences which have already done so.

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…o-fede_en.html
*

All this is saying is that local catechisms must conform to the universal catechism of the church, what is your point?

Nobody is arguing with the CCC, I am not, it just doesn’t have every doctrine in it, it is a summary
 
holy_face said:
How many times do I have to say the same thing until you get it?

**
THE CCC IS A SUMMARY**, NOT HE ENTIRE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH!!!

It is incomplete, it is general guide not a listing of all of the catholic doctrine.

I am not opposing the CCC at all
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You can insist and persist in insisting and ignore what has been clearly stated authoritatively that the CCC is comprehensive but the fact is that it is comprehensive.
 
Walking_Home, here it is again in case you missed it. The matter has been resolved, you are clearly in error about the passage, it is doctrine, it may not be quoted in the CCC, but again, the CCC is only a summary of the entire doctrine of the church

The teaching of the Church has not changed:
Code: 
26. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that "order of love," as St. Augustine calls it. T**his order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: "Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church."**[29]
CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)
 
severus68 said:
You can insist and persist in insisting and ignore what has been clearly stated authoritatively that the CCC is comprehensive but the fact is that it is comprehensive.
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it’s not, it is a summary did you happen to miss this?
  1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]
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CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)
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It is not in the CCC but it is still church doctrine

The doctrine of the church consists of many things, encyclicals, councils, scripture, holy tradition etc. which are summarized in the CCC.
 
holy_face said:
*CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

It is hoped that local catechisms and various catechetical supplements in use in the particular Churches would be examined to ensure their complete conformity with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[27] Should a catechism or supplement be found to be not totally in accord with the Catechism, or should some lacunae be discovered, new ones should be developed, following the example of those Conferences which have already done so.

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…o-fede_en.html*

All this is saying is that local catechisms must conform to the universal catechism of the church, what is your point?

Nobody is arguing with the CCC, I am not, it just doesn’t not have every doctrine in it, it is a summary
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The point – just as local catechisms must conform to the teaching authority of the Church via the CCC – so do you. And not go through contortions like calling it a “summary” – to “meet” your non-conformity.
 
Walking_Home said:
The point – just as local catechisms must conform to the teaching authority of the Church via the CCC – so do you. And not go through contortions like calling it a “summary” – to “meet” your non-conformity.
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was the pope in non-confomity as well in his encyclical?
  1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]
CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)
 
holy_face said:
Yes we are in agreement, there definitely is a limit. We have to obey all of what St. Paul says in his passage, loving, submitting to, and serving your wife as a benevolent leader of the family, not an autocrat, abuser or someone who will bring the family to ruin. In that case the wife certainly can step up because the husband has not fulfilled his responsibilities.
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Benign or benevolent slavery is still slavery. I am sure more than one slave master said he was a kind master.

We follow what the Church says.
 
severus68 said:
Benign or benevolent slavery is still slavery. I am sure more than one slave master said he was a kind master.

We follow what the Church says.
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Well then you had better consider all of what the church says, because again, the CCC is a summary, you are just as obliged to follow the complete doctrine of the Church.
  1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]
CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)
 
holy_face said:
St. Paul would maintain what he said as a general rule because he said it and it is part of infallible scripture. But I think it really goes without saying if the husband is a drug addict, mentally disabled, or wants to prostitute you then he should not be listened to.

St. Paul said wives should be submissive to their husbands and husband must love their wives. If the husband completely abandons his end of the deal then I don’t see why the wife should be held to it anymore, if the circumstances are extreme. But this is not to say that a wife has a right to look a every mistake he does as some reason to take over the relationship, she must advise him and bring up her concerns.

If it is extreme and he has abandoned his responsibility as the leader then the first officer has the right and perhaps even the obligation to take over the ship.

A wife is not a pawn while the husband is a King, she is a Queen, the 2nd in command and quite capable of taking over if the King is completely failing or gone. Or put another way, the husband is the captain and she is the first officer, the captain doesn’t usually boss around the first mate like he would the crew, she shares in the leadership and is responsible for many things on her own. The first officer will often voice disagreement to Captain on offer alternative solutions, or take over in the captain’s absence or abandonment of his duty.

St. Paul was obviously not calling for dictatorial relationships where the man bosses his wife around. He is called to love, respect, and serve his wife and family.

It is a benevolent leadership, not abusive, pushy or bossy.
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Here’s where we’ll find an area of rare total agreement. And you know what? My wife will totally agree as well! She encourages me to “take control” and “be the man” around here… even if she also from time to time pushes back against that notion. And I want to be the leader… and yet in some cases totally fail to step up to the plate out of fear or not wanting to get in an argument or simple laziness.

To me, I think St. Paul was not just speaking to a certain culture in a certain time… but also to the nature of men and women. I won’t speak for the women because I’m not of their sex, but I can say that it’s not easy for many men to be in touch with their feelings, to give of self to the point of total and complete sacrifice in the model of Christ.

Christ led the Apostles, and yet He was their greatest servant as well. Washing their feet, dying for them! We men are called to be leaders but many times we want all the respect and honor that goes with that, as opposed to following the leadership role that Christ demonstrated. You can see that creeping into the minds of women as well sometimes too with the whole push for female priesthood. Francis has done a great job to push back against the clericism of the laity, to note that clerics should be the servants of all, not just sit in their cushy positions and gather up the “Your Eminence” honors!

The same goes for men at the heads of their families. They should be respected by their wives and children, but they should earn that respect by modeling Christ. Yes, we men will frequently fail to live up to that model. But then St. Paul’s advice to women and children comes into play! Provided that they are not endangering the family, fathers and husbands should have respect even when they are imperfect. That’s not to say that they should get the final say if something is foolhardy or dangerous, but it is to say that respect is really important to men and that giving them that respect will help them become more like Christ.
 
holy_face said:
  1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]
CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)
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It comes down to this – the Authority of the Catholic Church to interpret and bring forth teachings – which She has authoritatively done so in the CCC. To oppose this authority – puts one in protestant territory.
 
But the CCC does not represent the entirety of all church doctrine, you must follow ALL of it, even the stuff that is not in the CCC specifically.
 
holy face said:

“But the CCC does not represent the entirety of all church doctrine, you must follow ALL of it, even the stuff that is not in the CCC specifically.”

Including the stuff about adultery not automatically dissolving marriage?

That’s in there, too.
 
Xantippe said:
holy face said:

“But the CCC does not represent the entirety of all church doctrine, you must follow ALL of it, even the stuff that is not in the CCC specifically.”

Including the stuff about adultery not automatically dissolving marriage?

That’s in there, too.
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No it doesn’t automatically dissolve marriage but I can leave the marriage in that case, it is just remarriage where it gets tricky.
 
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