My wife will never submit to me...should that matter?

[thewanderer]

Holy face, is it your belief that the submission of wife to husband must always take on the same shape and extent no matter what culture people are living in? If so, then I am afraid to inform you that Casti Connubi, which you were so good as to bring up already in this thread, explicitly states that the opposite is true.

 

[Walking_Home]

a Pope’s encyclical is nowhere near protestant territory

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It’s falls to the Catholic Church only – to interpret scripture/Tradition. What falls into protestant territory – is to use scripture etc.- to derogate the Church’s authority to interpret and bring forth the teachings in the CCC.

 

[holy_face]

Holy face, is it your belief that the submission of wife to husband must always take on the same shape and extent no matter what culture people are living in? If so, then I am afraid to inform you that Casti Connubi, which you were so good as to bring up already in this thread, explicitly states that the opposite is true.

The same shape and extent? Not every circumstance is exactly the same so it will differ I guess, not sure what the point is.

 

[holy_face]

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It’s falls to the Catholic Church only – to interpret scripture/Tradition. What falls into protestant territory – is to use scripture etc.- to derogate the Church’s authority to interpret and bring forth the teachings in the CCC.

Last I heard the Pope was Catholic

 

[thewanderer]

The same shape and extent? Not every circumstance is exactly the same so it will differ I guess, not sure what the point is.

I am talking specifically about culture changing the shape and extent of submission requiried. So, for instance, the idea that since we live in the culture we do today the wifes submission will not take the form of giving her husband the last say except in extreme circumstances. The way you have been speaking has made it sound as though you believe that the Church teaches that all wives must always give the last say to their husbands unless their husbands are being horrible sinful jerks, but my reading of Casti Connubii has led me to a very different conclusion.

 

[Portrait]

Go ask a reputable Catholic theologian and get back to me. They will tell you the same thing as I have about the husband’s headship .

The CCC is a SUMMARY of the Catholic doctrine, not the complete doctrine of the Church.

It is only fundamentalist to read scripture alone and live by it alone without also living by holy tradition and the doctrines established by the Church. The doctrines of the church regarding the husband’s headship has not changed from scripture.

Dear holy face,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hear, hear, jolly well said and absolutely bang on target. Your position is in full-accord with the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

God bless and thankyou for your splendid (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos

 

[Walking_Home]

Last I heard the Pope was Catholic

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As is the Catholic Church – the only one with the authority to interpret scripture/Tradition and bring it forth.

 

[Portrait]

The teaching of the Church has not changed:

1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. **This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, **which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]

CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)

Dear Edmunds1581,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Splendid (name removed by moderator)ut and as clear as the sun at noonday.

Indeed, the authoritative teaching of Holy Mother Church has not changed or gone mouldy with the passage of time. We are in the realm here of an immutable and timeless truth which is always perpetual valid, notwithstanding the assertions of a spurious egalitarianism.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos

 

[Walking_Home]

Dear Edmunds1581,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Splendid (name removed by moderator)ut and as clear as the sun at noonday.

Indeed, the authoritative teaching of Holy Mother Church has not changed or gone mouldy with the passage of time. We are in the realm here of an immutable and timeless truth which is always perpetual valid, notwithstanding the assertions of a spurious egalitarianism.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos

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Hello “Portrait”. Just as you wrong with “timeless truth” – that women should be covering their heads – you are wrong now.

 

[severus68]

it’s not, it is a summary did you happen to miss this?

It is not in the CCC but it is still church doctrine

The doctrine of the church consists of many things, encyclicals, councils, scripture, holy tradition etc. which are summarized in the CCC.

Did you miss what WH quoted?

Even if it is a summary, as you persist in saying, surely the summary on marriage would have been about wives submitting/obeying their husbands and not on mutual submission as it says?

 

[holy_face]

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As is the Catholic Church – the only one with the authority to interpret scripture/Tradition and bring it forth.

The Pope has that authority as the head of the Church, he can declare any doctrine he wants with infallibility.

Maybe it’s time to crack open that catechism again and learn more.

 

[holy_face]

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Hello “Portrait”. Just as you wrong with “timeless truth” – that women should be covering their heads – you are wrong now.

women covering their heads is not doctrine so it can change at any point

 

[thewanderer]

I am talking specifically about culture changing the shape and extent of submission requiried. So, for instance, the idea that since we live in the culture we do today the wifes submission will not take the form of giving her husband the last say except in extreme circumstances. The way you have been speaking has made it sound as though you believe that the Church teaches that all wives must always give the last say to their husbands unless their husbands are being horrible sinful jerks, but my reading of Casti Connubii has led me to a very different conclusion.

The main reason I say this is because of this quote from Casti Connubii

Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time.

from:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

In other words, the degree and manner of submission (ie, what it looks like whether its giving the husband last say or not, etc) will change depending on the culture (the place and time) in which a couple lives. So, as much as it is an immutable fact that there is an unchangeabe order in marriage of the husband being the head, it is also an immutable fact that what the submission of the wife will look like will vary from culture to culture. Meaning it is a part of Church teaching that there is no one uniform way for a wife to submit to her husband. Meaning everyone that claims that a wife has to always giver her husband last say or else she’s failing to submit to her husband is wrong and contradicting clear and immutable Church teaching on the subject.

 

[holy_face]

Did you miss what WH quoted?

Even if it is a summary, as you persist in saying, surely the summary on marriage would have been about wives submitting/obeying their husbands and not on mutual submission as it says?

I am saying it is a summary because it is, it does not represent the entire doctrine of the Church.

No the summary was only part of what St. Paul taught about marriage, not the complete doctrine. I never said the CCC was wrong, just that it was incomplete.

 

[Walking_Home]

The Pope has that authority as the head of the Church, he can declare any doctrine he wants with infallibility.

Maybe it’s time to crack open that catechism again and learn more.

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You mean the CCC – you derogate from. Take your own advice – and learn it.

 

[severus68]

Well then you had better consider all of what the church says, because again, the CCC is a summary, you are just as obliged to follow the complete doctrine of the Church.

1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]

CASTI CONNUBII. ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE.(emphasis added)

My obedience is to the Church, not to your view of Church teachings.

Perhaps, for transparency, you should read and quote the whole of Casti Connubii, Its been done recently but you are choosing just one portion.

 

[holy_face]

The main reason I say this is because of this quote from Casti Connubii

from:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

In other words, the degree and manner of submission (ie, what it looks like whether its giving the husband last say or not, etc) will change depending on the culture (the place and time) in which a couple lives. So, as much as it is an immutable fact that there is an unchangeabe order in marriage of the husband being the head, it is also an immutable fact that what the submission of the wife will look like will vary from culture to culture. Meaning it is a part of Church teaching that there is no one uniform way for a wife to submit to her husband. Meaning everyone that claims that a wife has to always giver her husband last say or else she’s failing to submit to her husband is wrong and contradicting clear and immutable Church teaching on the subject.

Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time.

Yes different cultures have some different traditions but if you are living as a Christian family then the fact still remains. In can only be different in degree and manner as with different cultural traditions. At the end of the day the husband is still the head no matter how you modify it.

 

[holy_face]

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You mean the CCC – you derogate from. Take your own advice – and learn it.

I have never strayed from the CCC, at all, not in the slightest. I have just pointed out that it is not the complete doctrine, it is a summary, there is a lot more in the entirety of Church Doctrine.

 

[holy_face]

My obedience is to the Church, not to your view of Church teachings.

Perhaps, for transparency, you should read and quote the whole of Casti Connubii, Its been done recently but you are choosing just one portion.

Each portion of Casti Connubii is true, including the part that says wives should be obedient to their husbands, nothing else in the encyclical says otherwise.

 

[Walking_Home]

Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time.

Yes different cultures have some different traditions but if you are living as a Christian family then the fact still remains. In can only be different in degree and manner as with different cultural traditions. At the end of the day the husband is still the head no matter how you modify it.

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As per the teaching of the Catholic Church – it is mutual subjection in reverence to Christ – Not a one sided subjection. Either one conforms to the teachings of the Church or not.