Mystified by Adoration

[Pregustator]

I gather that you do not fully embrace the True Presence of Jesus Christ in the consecrated Host.

That’s mighty white of you; thanks.

However, your difficulty is spiritual not intellectual. The solution will be provided by the Holy Spirit, not the words of fellow Catholics. Since many conversions have occurred in His Eucharistic presence, might I suggest that you go and spend time with Him in adoration? You are absolutely justified to ask, even demand Him to reveal His presence to you, as this is exactly how many hearts have been called to Him and His Church.

So, if one doesn’t comprehend this devotion, there is something deficient about one’s faith, you suppose?

As He did to Thomas, our Lord calls out to us, “Do not persist in your unbelief, but believe”

I haven’t expressed any sort of unbelief, at all. If you read my previous posts, I think you’ll see that. My issue is not with the Eucharist, but with this devotion.

I think it’s really telling, however, that someone would equate discomfort with this devotion with a lack of faith.

 

[Pregustator]

Your caricature is unhelpful. Adoration is not unrelated to the Mass. And why must the Eucharist be eaten every time it is seen? Why can’t there be a mode of “interacting” with the Eucharist in between Masses?

I apologize if it came across as a caricature; I suppose it was a bit of one, actually, but I think one can still see my point. At the risk of making another caricature, the Eucharistic species are displayed before us with great solemnity, and then…then what? We stare at them. Okie dokie. And what happens as a result of beholding them that will not happen with the species behind closed doors? Could this practice have any meaning at all for a blind Catholic, I wonder?

 

[Pregustator]

Quote:
NOT JL quote: But there is no better place to bring your concerns and questions than before Jesus Himself iin the Blessed Sacrament.

Pregustator; Why? Does God somehow respond to our prayers more fully if we are located in front of consecrated Eucharistic species than otherwise? I find that a hard thing to fathom considering that God is everywhere present and hears our prayers wherever we offer them.

JL: Since my post obviously upset you, which was not the intention, I will only make a comment on the last quote in your post. You have failed to correctly identify the person who posted those remarks, making it appear as though I posted it, which I did not. If you don’t yet know how to seperate QUOTES, please do another post.

Whomever you are: your post did not upset me. You made an assertion that the “best place” to pray was before the (presumably exposed) Blessed Sacrament. I asked, “why?” Forgive me for not correctly identifying you.

 

[masuwerte]

I’m not even Catholic, and I find adoration beneficial. My Episcopal parish has a chapel open for adoration every week. Not everyone feels the same, so I guess that’s why the Catholic Church doesn’t consider it an obligation.

From the Book of Common Prayer: Adoration is the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God’s presence.

 

[zab]

Whomever you are: your post did not upset me. You made an assertion that the “best place” to pray was before the (presumably exposed) Blessed Sacrament. I asked, “why?” Forgive me for not correctly identifying you.

The Eucharistic Presence of Jesus is the only Presence of Jesus with us today that can be seen. It still take faith to believe that He sees you and hears you when you are there before Him. But it is a good place to be to start thinking about these things and about how much God loves us and the extent that He would go to prove His love for us and to stay with us. Ask, Seek, knock- He can reveal this to you better than I can explain it.

 

[Pregustator]

I think that you are limiting your consideration of this devotion to the intellectual aspect, while missing or disregarding the spiritual. The intellectual depth of adoration is sharply limited. You believe that the Eucharist is the Lord Jesus. Period. Stop. This cannot satisfy your curiosity! This limit may also explain why you cannot fathom the devotion.

Yes, you’re right. Whenever I have been to Eucharistic Adoration or Benediction, for me it is a matter of, “yes…there’s the Host…borne aloft for us to stare at. Now what?”

In sharp contrast to the intellectual aspect, the spiritual rewards are infinite.

What are the infinite rewards of not consuming the Eucharist, only looking at it, during the course of a paraliturgical devotion separated and apart from the Mass?

The Church has declared that it is a good and holy practice to spend time with what you believe, and the Church teaches, to be Christ, in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. I think that what you have understood in the intellectual realm, you have not yet begun to understand in the spiritual realm. Adoration is a purely spiritual matter, as you have already physically and intellectually consumed Christ at mass.

As to being “mystified” by adoration, yes! Every soul that has ever gathered before Him is either initially or ultimately mystified. We are bound to be mystified by an infinite God.

I seem to sense myself being appropriately worshipful of the Eucharist in the context of Mass, and at other times when in Church. Any time I enter or depart a church, I genuflect to the tabernacle because I comprehend Christ’s presence. But I avoid going to adoration because that I just don’t…“get”. Kneeling there and staring at the species, exposed, does nothing for me, and I don’t know what it truly could do for anybody else. I mean, some faction in the Church could attack the value of the Sacrament of Marriage, and the Church could overreact by developing a service during which we stare at a married couple for an hour. Would that make sense? No. Does this make any more sense?

I am not sure why not being able to make much sense of this practice must necessarily be a sign of a spiritual deficiency, as some of you are eager to assert. I don’t actually think that it is a sign of such, in fact. What might the reaction be, I wonder, if I were to assert that it might even be a sign of just the opposite: of a better understanding of the Eucharist, and a more mature approach to it? Would that sound presumptuous and arrogant, do you think? Well, guess what the opposite assertion sounds like to me.

I don’t think what we want to do is pass judgment on each other here, but to share our honestly-held perspectives and understandings without doing that. Tell me what the value is of this practice that I am not comprehending, but don’t feel the need to sit in judgment of me and others like me on top of it. That just tells me what you aren’t getting out of this practice, doesn’t it?

 

[japhy]

the Eucharistic species are displayed before us with great solemnity, and then…then what? We stare at them. Okie dokie. And what happens as a result of beholding them that will not happen with the species behind closed doors?

I probably can’t put it into adequate words, but to me it just feels different being in the presence of the Eucharist exposed in a monstrance, compared to the Eucharist locked up in the tabernacle. I’m sure I’d probably fail a euchosymbological exam for saying this, but spending time with Jesus in the tabernacle seems to me more like keeping watch outside His tomb! On the contrary, adoration when He is exposed in a monstrance seems like the Transfiguration to me. He is no longer completely “hidden” to my eyes (although He is still veiled under the appearance of bread).

We are sensory people. Whether imagined or not, whether for better or for worse, we perceive things differently when heard or not heard, seen or not seen, touched or not touched. This interplay of sensed-or-not-sensed is a staple of the liturgy. Some prayers are not heard by the people. Some actions are not seen by them. Some things are not touched by them. (This is more the case in the Extraordinary Form than the Ordinary Form, as you are well aware.) When the Host and Chalice are raised after their consecration, the rubrics say it is so that the people can see them. So somewhere along the line, it was considered worthwhile and praiseworthy for the congregation to see the otherwise hidden Eucharist during the Canon.

Could this practice have any meaning at all for a blind Catholic, I wonder?

Can going to Mass have any meaning for a blind and deaf Catholic? A blind, deaf, lame, mute Catholic? Don’t ask me to conjecture about the meaningfulness of adoration to blind Catholics; ask blind Catholics who go to Eucharistic adoration what they think about it.

I have another question for you, which might be out of bounds, and if you take offense at it, I apologize, and will retract it and not pursue it any further. What did you think about adoration while you were still a “Lefebvrist”? If you felt differently then than you do now, is it possible your reaction to adoration now is part of an overcompensation from your former attitude?

 

[Pregustator]

I’m not even Catholic, and I find adoration beneficial. My Episcopal parish has a chapel open for adoration every week. Not everyone feels the same, so I guess that’s why the Catholic Church doesn’t consider it an obligation.

From the Book of Common Prayer: Adoration is the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God’s presence.

An Episcopal parish? Really? I’ll be honest, that comes as a surprise to me. May I ask, do you believe in transubstantiation as the Roman Catholic Church teaches the doctrine?

 

[masuwerte]

Pretty much, although the Episcopal Church doesn’t define it as specifically as the Catholic Church does.

 

[Pregustator]

I have another question for you, which might be out of bounds, and if you take offense at it, I apologize, and will retract it and not pursue it any further. What did you think about adoration while you were still a “Lefebvrist”? If you felt differently then than you do now, is it possible your reaction to adoration now is part of an overcompensation from your former attitude?

Gloves off? LOL. No need to apologize at all. The truth is an interwoven totality, isn’t it?

I will share my varying reactions to Eucharistic adoration in stages, over time, with you, including my “Lefebvrist” period.

The first time I ever experienced adoration or benediction would have been in my late teens, at a time when I was really discovering for the first time a Catholicism that I was baptized into, and confirmed into, but never really raised to appreciate or value.

At that time, my initial reaction to Benediction would have been along the lines of, “Wow! What’s going on here? The Latin? The incense? The Catholic Church still uses Latin and incense? Who knew? This is amazing!”

Well, I loved it at first, to be honest, I thought it was beautiful. But I never gave much thought to what was actually occurring. I never felt the need to think about it: it was just a sensory field day…spiritual eye candy, ear candy, and nose candy! What’s not to love about it all?

It was only after becoming a “Lefebvrist” (from age 19 until I turned 24), ironically, that I began to actually think about this practice, and to wonder about it…to question its purpose and to doubt its value. In the SSPX’s American seminary, I had a professor who was no better trained than any other SSPX professor–they train and educate each other, after all–but he was different: he was far broader in his perspective on the liturgy than many other “Lefebvrists” who were sometimes astonishingly narrow. And he was passionate: obviously filled with the subject he was doing his best to teach, in a very complete and honest way, despite his education. I would be surprised to learn that he is still with the SSPX, in fact, so sincere seemed his own thirst for the truth. I hope he moved on; he was a good, good man.

At any rate, that improbable follower of Lefebvre put this improbable follower of Lefebvre on a path toward liturgical study that would eventually broaden my own understanding of the Mass and the Eucharist, and as a result it would leave me scratching my head over adoration and benediction. Eventually, through my own study of the Eucharist, I began to become sensible of the Eucharist being out of context with respect to benediction or adoration. On the rare occasion that we had adoration at the seminary (yes: rare) I no longer revelled in it the way I did when I simply wasn’t giving any thought to it. A deeper understanding of the Eucharist made benediction and adoration confusing to me, now. It was no longer a delight, but a source of perplexion. It seemed odd.

As far as a “Lefebrvrist’s” reaction to something like adoration or benediction goes, the attraction is obvious…for the faithful. But not necessarily for the clergy. It seemed that the general feeling amongst the clergy was that adoration was really more something for the parishes, something for old ladies, something for the “simple”. And, as I say, adoration was not a regular practice at the seminary, reflecting that general perception of the practice.

So, no, my current lack of appreciation for adoration is not at all in spite of the Lefebvrists, but actually originates with my SSPX seminary experience, as ironic as that may seem.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, you’re right. Whenever I have been to Eucharistic Adoration or Benediction, for me it is a matter of, “yes…there’s the Host…borne aloft for us to stare at. Now what?”

Firstly - it’s not merely a question of ‘there’s the Host’, it’s a question of ‘there’s Jesus’. Now what? Well, you do the same as you would any other time when your attention was fixed on the fact that you were in His presence - you pray, reflect, communicate.

Are you married? Do you have children? Have you ever been deeply and passionately in love? To me your comment above is like saying “yes, there is my incredibly beautiful and loving boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/child, right in front of me, with his or her whole attention fixed on me, gazing at me lovingly, and inviting me to in turn fix my whole attention on him or her and simply spend time gazing at him or her lovingly as well … now what?”

Someone who has been in the throes of passionate love, who does have children, knows the joy of merely spending time gazing lovingly at your loved one, and in turn being gazed at by them. The act then needs no further explanation or justification, those who have experienced it know that it is a wonderful thing in and of itself.

This is how one of the simple villagers St John Vianney ministered to explained it to him - ‘I look at Him and He looks back at me.’ This is something people either get or they don’t.

 

[Pregustator]

Firstly - it’s not merely a question of ‘there’s the Host’, it’s a question of ‘there’s Jesus’. Now what? Well, you do the same as you would any other time when your attention was fixed on the fact that you were in His presence - you pray, reflect, communicate.

Are you married? Do you have children? Have you ever been deeply and passionately in love? To me your comment above is like saying “yes, there is my incredibly beautiful and loving boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/child, right in front of me, with his or her whole attention fixed on me, gazing at me lovingly, and inviting me to in turn fix my whole attention on him or her and simply spend time gazing at him or her lovingly as well … now what?”

Someone who has been in the throes of passionate love, who does have children, knows the joy of merely spending time gazing lovingly at your loved one, and in turn being gazed at by them. The act then needs no further explanation or justification, those who have experienced it know that it is a wonderful thing in and of itself.

This is how one of the simple villagers St John Vianney ministered to explained it to him - ‘I look at Him and He looks back at me.’ This is something people either get or they don’t.

Oh. Now it’s all clear. Thanks.

 

[po18guy]

To avoid offense, please view all of my questions as rhetorical in nature - intended to provoke thought and not to criticize. You stated that Bishop Sheen “guilted” others into adoration - yet I must point out that he is in the process of being canonized while you remain mystified. This is not going to sound charitable, but I am trying hard to be exactly that: Either there is a problem with Christ, or a problem with some aspect of your belief about Him. How else can you possibly explain your difficulty with a universal and long-standing Church devotion to that which you admit is Christ?

Yes, you’re right. Whenever I have been to Eucharistic Adoration or Benediction, for me it is a matter of, “yes…there’s the Host…borne aloft for us to stare at. Now what?”

But, it’s not “the Host” It is Jesus Christ! Can this be it? Others see the Host and think “Jesus”. You see Jesus and think “the Host”?

What are the infinite rewards of not consuming the Eucharist, only looking at it, during the course of a paraliturgical devotion separated and apart from the Mass?

The Eucharist is both physical and spiritual food. Is the spiritual value obtained only through physical consumption? Are we to worship Christ only during prayer, or only during the mass, or at all times and in all places and under all circumstances? The woman who wept at Jesus’ feet and dried the tears with her hair was adoring Him. His feet did not need the wetting or drying, but He was due the adoration - simply for being Christ - Emmanuel - God with us.

I seem to sense myself being appropriately worshipful of the Eucharist in the context of Mass, and at other times when in Church. Any time I enter or depart a church, I genuflect to the tabernacle because I comprehend Christ’s presence. But I avoid going to adoration because that I just don’t…“get”. Kneeling there and staring at the species, exposed, does nothing for me, and I don’t know what it truly could do for anybody else. I mean, some faction in the Church could attack the value of the Sacrament of Marriage, and the Church could overreact by developing a service during which we stare at a married couple for an hour. Would that make sense? No. Does this make any more sense?

Adoration is the worship of Christ outside of the mass. Ask yourself if you might have compartmentalized the value of Eucharist strictly within the context of the mass. Christ is infinitely more than a sacrament, being God, being Truth. Are you viewing the Eucharist as nothing more than a Sacrament? In the Eucharistic specie, He assumes sacramental form, but He is neither confined within, nor limited to the sacramental form.

I am not sure why not being able to make much sense of this practice must necessarily be a sign of a spiritual deficiency, as some of you are eager to assert.

Conversely, your assertion here is that we might just be foolish for adoring the Blessed Sacrament. It goes both ways.

I don’t actually think that it is a sign of such, in fact. What might the reaction be, I wonder, if I were to assert that it might even be a sign of just the opposite: of a better understanding of the Eucharist, and a more mature approach to it?

Is something leading you to believe that your faith is mature, while that of the Saints was immature?

Would that sound presumptuous and arrogant, do you think? Well, guess what the opposite assertion sounds like to me.

In all charity, please consider that your present inability to understand the efficacy and appropriateness of worshipping Christ outside of mass, in the Eucharist, might be due to all of the “I” and "me’’ that is in your replies. I sense a separation between you and the remainder of the Church. Are you merely a devout Catholic individual, or do you consider yourself to be an integral and crucial part of a much larger organic whole - the Body of Christ on earth?

I don’t think what we want to do is pass judgment on each other here, but to share our honestly-held perspectives and understandings without doing that. Tell me what the value is of this practice that I am not comprehending, but don’t feel the need to sit in judgment of me and others like me on top of it. That just tells me what you aren’t getting out of this practice, doesn’t it?

Well, since adoration is a practice that the Church teaches, this might be solved through prayer for understanding. There is certainly much that I don’t “get”, but this aspect of spirituality I do. Can you understand that your opinion in this matter appears to pass judgment on the Church? Your mention of Bishop Sheen also appears to have passed judgment on him as employing “guilt”. Well, we are guilty, or we would not need Christ in the first place! Yes, it is uncomfortable when we confront our guilt, but blessed is he who calls our guilt to mind.

 

[Pregustator]

To avoid offense, please view all of my questions as rhetorical in nature - intended to provoke thought and not to criticize.

Okay, will do.

You stated that Bishop Sheen “guilted” others into adoration - yet I must point out that he is in the process of being canonized while you remain mystified.

LOL.

Let me just state for the record that I actually “adore” (I’m gonna get it for that) Fulton Sheen, and I hope he is canonized. But saints aren’t impeccable or infallible, only better than most. We can legitimately disagree with the behavior and even words of saints…even of Fulton Sheen.

This is not going to sound charitable, but I am trying hard to be exactly that: Either there is a problem with Christ, or a problem with some aspect of your belief about Him. How else can you possibly explain your difficulty with a universal and long-standing Church devotion to that which you admit is Christ? But, it’s not “the Host” It is Jesus Christ! Can this be it? Others see the Host and think “Jesus”. You see Jesus and think “the Host”?

No, no. You don’t sound uncharitable, incidentally, but no. No, I am not questioning Christ in the Eucharist or even adoring Christ in the Eucharist. It isn’t a matter of faith, it’s a matter of ceremony, as I see it. This particular ceremony seems odd to me, and I don’t see the value of displaying Christ as Eucharist outside of the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is both physical and spiritual food. Is the spiritual value obtained only through physical consumption?

Essentially. The Eucharistic species are the result of the Eucharistic celebration, and the purpose is to be fed by this Sacrament, and in being fed to be united with Christ and with the Church. Beholding the Sacrament in a monstrance does not have this effect.

Are we to worship Christ only during prayer, or only during the mass, or at all times and in all places and under all circumstances? The woman who wept at Jesus’ feet and dried the tears with her hair was adoring Him. His feet did not need the wetting or drying, but He was due the adoration - simply for being Christ - Emmanuel - God with us.

Yes, at all times. But I haven’t said that we should not worship Christ at all times. What I am saying is that this particular mode of worship perplexes me insofar as it seems to make use of the Eucharist in a peculiar way.

Adoration is the worship of Christ outside of the mass. Ask yourself if you might have compartmentalized the value of Eucharist strictly within the context of the mass.

Not entirely. I mean, I understand the pastoral necessity for retaining elements of the consecrated Eucharistic species for the benefit of the hospitalized or shut-ins or what have you. But then, their reception of Communion even outside of Mass is an extension of the Mass and fulfills its purpose. The same cannot be said of Eucharistic adoration.

Christ is infinitely more than a sacrament, being God, being Truth. Are you viewing the Eucharist as nothing more than a Sacrament? In the Eucharistic specie, He assumes sacramental form, but He is neither confined within, nor limited to the sacramental form.

But, we’re speaking of Christ in terms of Sacrament, here, and the limitations of, as you say, his sacramental form. At Eucharistic adoration, we behold only his sacramental form, thus making the mere beholding of it, to me, odd, since all we are capable of seeing is the sacramental form. We behold Christ, true, but we see only bread.

Conversely, your assertion here is that we might just be foolish for adoring the Blessed Sacrament. It goes both ways.

I don’t say those who do attend adoration are foolish. I only say that I do not “get” what they are “getting”. Why does it make sense to them and not to me? This is the essence of my attempt at discovery, I suppose.

Is something leading you to believe that your faith is mature, while that of the Saints was immature?

No. I only meant to illustrate that the various scoldings and lectures posted in response, which make my question seem to some impious, apparently, could be turned right back around on them. I do not do that, I only wish to open the door to show that those who do prefer this devotion could be looked upon by some as clinging to something superficial. Particularly when they cannot explain it. But I am not doing that, or saying that, let me be clear.

In all charity, please consider that your present inability to understand the efficacy and appropriateness of worshipping Christ outside of mass, in the Eucharist, might be due to all of the “I” and "me’’ that is in your replies. I sense a separation between you and the remainder of the Church. Are you merely a devout Catholic individual, or do you consider yourself to be an integral and crucial part of a much larger organic whole - the Body of Christ on earth?

And you get all of that from my mere questioning of the value of this optional, non-mandatory, paraliturgical devotional practice that many parishes do not even offer. Interesting.

Well, since adoration is a practice that the Church teaches…

Careful. A pious practice and a “teaching” are not the same thing. The Church, after all, does not “teach” that Catholics must do this. Some churches offer it. Many do not.

 

[po18guy]

Let me just state for the record that I actually “adore” (I’m gonna get it for that) Fulton Sheen, and I hope he is canonized. But saints aren’t impeccable or infallible We can legitimately disagree with the behavior and even words of saints…even of Fulton Sheen.

Legitimately, yes, but wisely? Don’t make a requirement for infallibility before considering what he said! Who will you listen to then? God said “This is My Son, with Whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him”. Did this command stop when Christ ascended, or was it only beginning? You have to listen with your heart - sometimes only with your heart.

No, no. You don’t sound uncharitable, incidentally, but no. No, I am not questioning Christ in the Eucharist or even adoring Christ in the Eucharist. This particular ceremony seems odd to me, and I don’t see the value of displaying Christ as Eucharist outside of the Eucharist.

Or, do you mean outside of mass? It should look odd only to pagans and non-Catholics. You don’t have to like it, or even participate, but just accept that it is a good and holy thing to do. I could tell you about miracles.

Essentially. The Eucharistic species are the result of the Eucharistic celebration, and the purpose is to be fed by this Sacrament, and in being fed to be united with Christ and with the Church. Beholding the Sacrament in a monstrance does not have this effect.

Not on you. Yet.

Yes, at all times. But I haven’t said that we should not worship Christ at all times. What I am saying is that this particular mode of worship perplexes me insofar as it seems to make use of the Eucharist in a peculiar way.

In the truest sense of the word peculiar, yes it is. Thank God for that. If you worship Christ in the Eucharist at mass before you receive Him, and you take Him with you when you leave, is it that odd to worship Him in the Eucharist before you consume Him the next time at mass? The sacrifice which the mass makes present never ends, and so adoration of Christ never ends. So, is it possible to adore Him without consuming Him? At those masses when you did not receive, did you stop adoring Him?

Not entirely. I mean, I understand the pastoral necessity for retaining elements of the consecrated Eucharistic species for the benefit of the hospitalized or shut-ins or what have you. But then, their reception of Communion even outside of Mass is an extension of the Mass and fulfills its purpose. The same cannot be said of Eucharistic adoration.

Christ, being the Pastor, said He would be with us always, not just at the mass. He is not pastoral solely via consuming the Eucharist. He is unlimited while we remain limited. And there can be our problem.

But, we’re speaking of Christ in terms of Sacrament, here, and the limitations of, as you say, his sacramental form. At Eucharistic adoration, we behold only his sacramental form, thus making the mere beholding of it, to me, odd, since all we are capable of seeing is the sacramental form. We behold Christ, true, but we see only bread.

Close your eyes and “see” with your heart. A blind person receives exactly the same benefit.

I don’t say those who do attend adoration are foolish. I only say that I do not “get” what they are “getting”. Why does it make sense to them and not to me? This is the essence of my attempt at discovery, I suppose.

Make yourself a fool for Christ, and what had no meaning will suddenly have new meaning.

No. I only meant to illustrate that the various scoldings and lectures posted in response, which make my question seem to some impious, apparently, could be turned right back around on them. I do not do that, I only wish to open the door to show that those who do prefer this devotion could be looked upon by some as clinging to something superficial. Particularly when they cannot explain it. But I am not doing that, or saying that, let me be clear.

It is not superficial, because the Church has stated that it is not superficial. You are the only soul I know of that accepts His real presence, but has difficulty with simple adoration. I adore Him simply because He is. Of all the types of prayer, one is worship. Not asking anything, not telling anything. Just sitting and worshipping.

And you get all of that from my mere questioning of the value of this optional, non-mandatory, paraliturgical devotional practice that many parishes do not even offer. Interesting.

We get out of our faith what we put into it, right? Just as Jesus did not do or say one frivolous thing, so also there is not a single frivolous devotion in the faith. Like human souls, each has value… Pray for understanding through faith - that’s all I can offer you.

Careful. A pious practice and a “teaching” are not the same thing. The Church, after all, does not “teach” that Catholics must do this. Some churches offer it. Many do not.

By allowing a pious practice, the Church does indeed teach that it is good and holy and True - just not mandatory. But, do we want to do the bare minimum to attain heaven? I don’t even want to know what you think of Marian devotions, or of baptism in the Holy Spirit…

You’re a reader. Grab a copy of 7 Secrets of the Eucharist by Vinny Flynn. You’re in NY, so you gotta’ trust Vinny! It might just open your eyes so that you may then close your eyes and trust in a new spiritual dimension. Then you will be well and truly mystified.

You, sir, are a hard case! Say, you’re not an engineer, are you?

 

[Pregustator]

Legitimately, yes, but wisely? Don’t make a requirement for infallibility before considering what he said! Who will you listen to then? God said “This is My Son, with Whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him”. Did this command stop when Christ ascended, or was it only beginning? You have to listen with your heart - sometimes only with your heart.

Or, do you mean outside of mass? It should look odd only to pagans and non-Catholics. You don’t have to like it, or even participate, but just accept that it is a good and holy thing to do. I could tell you about miracles.

Not on you. Yet.

In the truest sense of the word peculiar, yes it is. Thank God for that. If you worship Christ in the Eucharist at mass before you receive Him, and you take Him with you when you leave, is it that odd to worship Him in the Eucharist before you consume Him the next time at mass? The sacrifice which the mass makes present never ends, and so adoration of Christ never ends. So, is it possible to adore Him without consuming Him? At those masses when you did not receive, did you stop adoring Him?

Christ, being the Pastor, said He would be with us always, not just at the mass. He is not pastoral solely via consuming the Eucharist. He is unlimited while we remain limited. And there can be our problem.

Close your eyes and “see” with your heart. A blind person receives exactly the same benefit.

Make yourself a fool for Christ, and what had no meaning will suddenly have new meaning.

It is not superficial, because the Church has stated that it is not superficial. You are the only soul I know of that accepts His real presence, but has difficulty with simple adoration. I adore Him simply because He is. Of all the types of prayer, one is worship. Not asking anything, not telling anything. Just sitting and worshipping.

We get out of our faith what we put into it, right? Just as Jesus did not do or say one frivolous thing, so also there is not a single frivolous devotion in the faith. Like human souls, each has value… Pray for understanding through faith - that’s all I can offer you.

By allowing a pious practice, the Church does indeed teach that it is good and holy and True - just not mandatory. But, do we want to do the bare minimum to attain heaven? I don’t even want to know what you think of Marian devotions, or of baptism in the Holy Spirit…

You’re a reader. Grab a copy of 7 Secrets of the Eucharist by Vinny Flynn. You’re in NY, so you gotta’ trust Vinny! It might just open your eyes so that you may then close your eyes and trust in a new spiritual dimension. Then you will be well and truly mystified.

You, sir, are a hard case! Say, you’re not an engineer, are you?

I am not an engineer, no. I can only say in response to everything that I think you’re going one step to far in making my inquiry a question of faith in Christ or the Eucharist (or the lack thereof), which you seem to want to do. I do believe in Christ, and in the Eucharistic Christ, and I do worship him in his Eucharistic form…at Mass…where doing so is a matter or course. I question no article of faith, only the efficacy of and the logic behind the practice known as Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

As to Marian devotions, in many cases I value them…but not each and every one. I prefer the idea of a well-rounded general filial relationship with the Virgin than I do an attachment to any one particular Marian devotion or another. Some, like the scapular, I have no interest in. The rosary as a symbol of unity with Mary is a good practice, but some people take it to far, I think. It doesn’t need to be recited daily, and it can progress with a flow that makes sense to the person using that form of prayer, without a rigid adherence to “the correct way”.

Some people worry that when making use of Marian devotions such as the rosary that they sin when they become distracted or when they do something “wrong”. I recall one poster asking an apologist in this forum whether or not the angels finish your rosary if you fall asleep while praying it. I think when it gets to the point at which one worries about such things…or to the point at which people attend Mass, and then ignore it in favour of a silent recitation of the rosary or the praying of a book of novenas…there we can see a manifestly disordered spirituality.

To me, personally, an attachment to 101 different private devotions would serve as so many distractions, and an unfulfilling regimen of tasks to be accomplished before the setting of the sun. I don’t view prayer and spirituality that way, however. I hope that we aren’t actually meant to view them that way.

As you say, Christ is always with us…whether or not we can see Him under the guise of bread and wine outside of Mass.

Peace be with you.

 

[po18guy]

I am not an engineer, no. I can only say in response to everything that I think you’re going one step to far in making my inquiry a question of faith in Christ or the Eucharist (or the lack thereof), which you seem to want to do. I do believe in Christ, and in the Eucharistic Christ, and I do worship him in his Eucharistic form…at Mass…where doing so is a matter or course. I question no article of faith, only the efficacy of and the logic behind the practice known as Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

As I see it (from a right-hemisphere view) It is not a question of your faith, but rather consciously withholding a particular application of your faith. IMO, it’s like worshipping Jesus in Church, but avoiding eye contact when you see Him at the grocery store.

It struck me that those who hung on Jesus’ every word could not bring themselves to look upon his apparently defeated, suffering state on the cross. They fled from Him in that condition. Well, those who loved Him most (John, Mary and the other women) are the ones we are called to emulate. I see a parallel here - maybe you don’t.

It is distinctly difficult to bridge the chasm that exists between those who appreciate adoration and those who do not. I hope only that I might have caused you to ponder this, as it seems that a barrier has been placed between Christ in one context and the same Christ in another. But, many were the years in which I saw no value in it, either.

Final point: I see a purposeful distancing from it - even viewing Bishop Sheen with a hairy eyeball due to his fervent promotion of the devotion. This was all clearly expressed in your posts. And, as much as you are perplexed, so are those who differ with your view. As a basis, it is good that you do not think adoration to be wrong.

Remember, you asked!

 

[crazzeto]

I forget the thread, but we had a long discussion on this over in non-catholic forums. The linked EWTN doc (if it is what I think it is) is actually a useful read. I would suggest looking at it with an open heart, and pray about it.

The short version, is that yes Adoration is a development, but it’s one with roots stretching back at least to the 300s AD and it’s roots can be found both in the eastern and western churches. With the reservation of the hosts and the (true) understanding of the Eucharist (i.e. what real presense means) one has all the basis they need for adoration.

I’d love to type more but I’m still at the office. If you want more of a response please feel free to reply and I’ll see what I can do about offering a more complete explanation. God bless,

 

[Pregustator]

As I see it (from a right-hemisphere view) It is not a question of your faith, but rather consciously withholding a particular application of your faith. IMO, it’s like worshipping Jesus in Church, but avoiding eye contact when you see Him at the grocery store.

LOL. A bit wide of the mark, I think, but at least you’ve given me a few good chuckles in the course of our exchange.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. As the song goes: “There ain’t no good guy. There ain’t no bad guy. There’s only you and me (and about 15 other people) and we just disagree.”

 

[Pregustator]

I forget the thread, but we had a long discussion on this over in non-catholic forums. The linked EWTN doc (if it is what I think it is) is actually a useful read. I would suggest looking at it with an open heart, and pray about it.

I actually began to read that and have gotten about half way through it. As with you, time restraints obtain. I’ll return to it, though, when I can.

I’m not sure it’s quite the thing, is it, to invite someone to pray about it, really. That implies that one does have a spiritual matter or a matter of a lack of faith to overcome in this regard and I think, as I have said, that’s taking the matter too far. What we are talking about, here, is a paraliturgical devotion that many churches do not even offer. So, I think it’s important to keep this in its proper perspective.