Myth of evolution and new drug discovery

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One effect of that is that yes, it’s hard for the lay masses to appreciate these complexities (see this thread in the last couple pages!), and that itself makes trust in the system difficult; it’s hard to trust because it’s opaque at a retail level, and it takes a lot of effort to sort out the dynamics of even such a small issue as peacock trains. It’s a hard fact of reality – science is a complex enterprise and the the devil is in the details. That’s an obstacle for people who are hoping to engage it on “simple” level.
I think those are important points and I’m glad you brought them out. I think “trust in the system” is a function of trusting various scientists themselves. It’s very rare that the lay public can validate claims made by scientists. Even other scientists find this difficult to do. So, it is very much a matter of trust.
I don’t think you should underestimate the effect that fraud can have in that kind of environment. When trust is destroyed by claims that are not supported by the evidence, exaggeration about the certainty of various conclusions (proven to be far more uncertain by the presence of contradictory claims) or outright fraud – then it’s not surprising that certain sectors of the public will take a very critical view towards the evolutionary enterprise itself.

Here’s an example …

Richard Dawkins Still Peddling Haeckel’s Fraudulent Embryo Diagrams

Richard Dawkins circa 2008 was still using fraudulent “evidence” for evolution that no self-respecting embryologist would defend, and that most biology textbooks dropped years ago …

Creationist/ID source or not, what many (like myself) find is that science is not self-policing. Critics of evolutionary theory bring these facts to light. Occasionally, evolutionists will denounce such things – but only after they’ve been exposed. Too often, its a matter of circling-the-wagons and denying that anything could be amiss.

In the case above – nobody noticed that Dawkins was using drawings which were exposed as frauds years ago.
 
I’m not a biologist or a philosopher of science, and haven’t claimed to be. I don’t think the system is geared around me, or some pervasive conspiracy to thwart my ideas, which is what I detect in your posts, that science isn’t pursuing knowledge and performance as goals in themselves, but is somehow oriented around a plot to confound and thwart creationists at all costs – making the whole thing “about you”, a mission so important scientists must go to all and any lengths to defeat creationists.

I don’t think science is in any danger of going away. But it certainly is hindered by the prevalence of the creationist mindset. And there’s no need to even worry about any conspiracy – there’s whole lot of organized, open animosity to science based on methodological naturalism. Creationists are out there in great numbers, and no surreptitious or “hidden” plans or secret controls need be posited; they just don’t want the results of methodological naturalism taught to their kids because they find that at odds with their theological convictions, and they make no bones about saying so.

-TS
Science “is hindered by the prevalence of the creationist mindset.”? Can you be more specific? Do you think a single scientist anywhere stopped going to the lab because of someone questioning the conclusions of a theory more certain than gravity that regularly becomes less certain than gravity on a fairly regular basis?

I am not a Creationist by the way. I study the history of technology, which also involves politics, and all this is about is a clash of orthodoxies, one of which is based on science.

Peace,
Ed
 
I think those are important points and I’m glad you brought them out. I think “trust in the system” is a function of trusting various scientists themselves. It’s very rare that the lay public can validate claims made by scientists. Even other scientists find this difficult to do. So, it is very much a matter of trust.
I don’t think you should underestimate the effect that fraud can have in that kind of environment. When trust is destroyed by claims that are not supported by the evidence, exaggeration about the certainty of various conclusions (proven to be far more uncertain by the presence of contradictory claims) or outright fraud – then it’s not surprising that certain sectors of the public will take a very critical view towards the evolutionary enterprise itself.
It’s even less surprising, though, when you figure in the cultural and theological biases against the discoveries of science in biology. The “I am not a biological machine” conceit runs deep in the psyche of many people, the idea that we are animals who share a common ancenstry with not just the chimpanzee, but the rat, the cabbage, and the lowliest bacteria, is repulsive to many, particular people conditioned by religion (often from birth) to view humans as “cosmiquely special” or ontologically perfectly distinct from the rest of biological life.

That makes it a problem to be a fair judge when a hoax like, say, Haeckel’s diagrams is exposed. Opportunistic parties like J. Wells or the Discovery Institute will capitalize on poeple’s conceits, which they share and treasure, and use such an incident to delegitimize the entire edifice of biology; by pandering to the internal biases of their audience, they can make such an incident look much more damaging and destabilizing than it is.
Richard Dawkins circa 2008 was still using fraudulent “evidence” for evolution that no self-respecting embryologist would defend, and that most biology textbooks dropped years ago …Creationist/ID source or not, what many (like myself) find is that science is not self-policing. Critics of evolutionary theory bring these facts to light. Occasionally, evolutionists will denounce such things – but only after they’ve been exposed. Too often, its a matter of circling-the-wagons and denying that anything could be amiss.
In the case above – nobody noticed that Dawkins was using drawings which were exposed as frauds years ago.
That is an example, but I think it’s an example that works right against your point, here, and toward mine.

Here’s a few questions to consider:

1. Are the images shown of embryos at the 7:30 mark in the video Haeckel’s diagrams in the first place?

No.

If you look at the titles on the diagram, they’re in English. Is that “Haeckelian” to you. Also, forget that, look at the images – particularly the fish, which is the most dramatic example. They are accurate renderings, NOT Haeckel’s fakes. Embryos really do resemble each other in development in fundamental ways, just not to the extent that Haeckel claimed with his fakes. This is the point being made in the video – embryos do have compelling similarities that drive evolutionary hypotheses.

**2. Does Dawkins reference Haeckel visually or in the narrative, or Haeckel’s ideas about recapitulation?
**
No.

**3. Were Haeckel’s drawings and recapitulation ideas available before or at the time of Darwin’s publishing of ***Origins?

*No. Haeckel’s drawings did not come out until after 1870, more than a decade after Darwin published his book. Haeckel didn’t propose the idea until 1866.

So what you have here is an embarrassingly reckless and stupid mistake on the part of John West of the Discovery Institute (and it’s enough of a pattern with him now that “mistake” is a very charitable label to apply); he “knee-jerks” on the image, jumping toward the attractive idea that Dawkins is invoking Haeckel and “recapitulation” here. But it’s not Haeckel’s diagrams. The pictures are accurate, if you are familiar with developmental biology here.

Unlike the science world, where there is a critical peer review process, a way for proponents of claims like this to be accountable and corrigible for those claims, the Discovery Institute is a just not accountable to anyone. It recognizes no peers, it doesn’t even accept comments on its articles. So they blow it, but no one notices or cares, and the story gets picked up by all the other facets in the echo chamber.

It is your “Creationist source or not” that is not self-policing. You’ve been mislead, but not by Dawkins or the scientific community here, but by the creationists at Disco. They have no accountability, and they play right into your theological prejudices, and this is the result. They’ve exploited your unjustifed trust in them to deceive you on the trustworthiness of others who do science.

-TS
 
Science “is hindered by the prevalence of the creationist mindset.”? Can you be more specific? Do you think a single scientist anywhere stopped going to the lab because of someone questioning the conclusions of a theory more certain than gravity that regularly becomes less certain than gravity on a fairly regular basis?
I think a lot of bright and able minds are steered away from science because of Creationist theology and culture. What Catholic kid wants to do real science with integrity like Kenneth Miller, only to have to fight the crazy politics that she must combat to do that as we see here on this forum? For kids raised in Protestant young earth creationist homes its even worse. Lots of great minds and interest lost to the advancement of science because of the petty demonization of science by religious folk who feel threatened by the method and the mindset. And it’s not just propagated at home – lots of Creationist intiatives aimed at blunting or distorting the presentiation of science *qua *science out there in the political channels. See the ridiculous farce that is the Texas State Board of Education and the continuing adventures of Don McLeroy; the curriculum of a whole state’s schools teetering on the edge of creationist theology being taught in the science classroom.
I am not a Creationist by the way. I study the history of technology, which also involves politics, and all this is about is a clash of orthodoxies, one of which is based on science.
My apologies, I did assume you held the origin biological life to be the result of specific and willful interventions by God, or some divine intelligence.

-TS
 
You’ve obviously done enough investigation on your own now to appreciate this, right?
-TS
While I have my own thesis, and have stated it, I have done enough investigation (as you indicated) to appreciate all those who share their knowledge including non-theists, materialists, Christians, religious individuals other than Christian, and those involved in creationism and ID. In my humble opinion, the non sequitur – “Deploy the black helicopters” is not worthy in an exchange of information.
 
Here’s an example …

Richard Dawkins Still Peddling Haeckel’s Fraudulent Embryo Diagrams

Richard Dawkins circa 2008 was still using fraudulent “evidence” for evolution that no self-respecting embryologist would defend, and that most biology textbooks dropped years ago …
I had a look at that page. It is wrong. Dawkins did indeed use drawings of embryos, but he did not use Haeckel’s drawings, he used someone else’s drawings.

Here are Haeckel originals from the 1874 edition:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Source: talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/haeckel.html

You will note that the text on the Haeckel originals is in German, “Schwein”, and not in English as has been pointed out. Your source is incorrect. Do you wonder why we do not trust creationist sources?

In future I suggest that you spend a few seconds on Google checking facts - it took me a few seconds to find the Haeckel original.

rossum
 
While I have my own thesis, and have stated it, I have done enough investigation (as you indicated) to appreciate all those who share their knowledge including non-theists, materialists, Christians, religious individuals other than Christian, and those involved in creationism and ID. In my humble opinion, the non sequitur – “Deploy the black helicopters” is not worthy in an exchange of information.
Well, is science as a whole, corrigible to the facts as they are and as they emerge, or not? Is there an consensus that any conflicting evidence or counterfactuals must be denied, distorted, dismissed or ignored, or not?

That’s all “black helicopters” refers to. Either the science community is generally committed to an honest, reasonable assessment of the facts on their merits, or it is not. Which is it, in your view? Reading back through some of your posts (I may have missed some), it’s not clear what your “thesis” is on that. I would have guessed you were “non-conspiratorial” if you had asked me. Others here clearly are committed to that idea. That’s their prerogative, but their’s a very limited potential in discussing it with them, as once you buy into the conspiracy, no evidence can persuade you from it.

-TS
 
In future I suggest that you spend a few seconds on Google checking facts - it took me a few seconds to find the Haeckel original.
Yep, this took just a couple minutes of reading, checking and thinking to debunk. This really is a good example of one of the problems that plagues the Creationist movement. The trust endures, however, because the theologies match.

-TS
 
I had a look at that page. It is wrong. Dawkins did indeed use drawings of embryos, but he did not use Haeckel’s drawings, he used someone else’s drawings.

Here are Haeckel originals from the 1874 edition:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/images/Haeckel-1874.jpg

Source: talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/haeckel.html

You will note that the text on the Haeckel originals is in German, “Schwein”, and not in English as has been pointed out. Your source is incorrect. Do you wonder why we do not trust creationist sources?

In future I suggest that you spend a few seconds on Google checking facts - it took me a few seconds to find the Haeckel original.

rossum
According to a friend, Haeckel was referred to in a locally used text book. If I can, I hope to trace this text since I need to see this book for myself. My guess is that this book has been replaced.
 
Yep, this took just a couple minutes of reading, checking and thinking to debunk. This really is a good example of one of the problems that plagues the Creationist movement. The trust endures, however, because the theologies match.

-TS
Yes, a couple of minutes of reading showed the accuracy of Dawkins’ images:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/dawkinshaeckel1.jpg

How could anyone say that they looked like these?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Haeckel_drawings.jpg/686px-
 
http://www.evolutionnews.org/dawkinshaeckel1.jpg

Here is the image that Dawkins used.

Apparently, that’s what passes for accuracy in evolutionary theory. I think they might have been drawn with crayon.
Are you standing by the claim that these are Haeckel’s diagrams, as claimed in the title and content of the article you linked?

And if you watch the video, this graphic follows another hand drawn image of the born structure of hands and arms of various animals. I do not recognize this particular image, but in Darwin’s day, they didn’t have laser printers and CAD workstations. Drawing by hand is how it was done in that era. This would have been the way illustrations Darwin drew upon for his ideas were created.

-TS
 
I think a lot of bright and able minds are steered away from science because of Creationist theology and culture. What Catholic kid wants to do real science with integrity like Kenneth Miller, only to have to fight the crazy politics that she must combat to do that as we see here on this forum? For kids raised in Protestant young earth creationist homes its even worse. Lots of great minds and interest lost to the advancement of science because of the petty demonization of science by religious folk who feel threatened by the method and the mindset. And it’s not just propagated at home – lots of Creationist intiatives aimed at blunting or distorting the presentiation of science *qua *science out there in the political channels. See the ridiculous farce that is the Texas State Board of Education and the continuing adventures of Don McLeroy; the curriculum of a whole state’s schools teetering on the edge of creationist theology being taught in the science classroom.

My apologies, I did assume you held the origin biological life to be the result of specific and willful interventions by God, or some divine intelligence.

-TS
I’m a Catholic kid who wanted to do ‘real science,’ but was steered by God in another direction. When I say I am not a Creationist, I mean that card-carrying caricature that appears in the secular press. I only trust the Holy Father and the Catholic Church on this issue. I have no political party affiliation. I think it is irrational to think that ‘my party, right or wrong’ is the right way to run a country.

Lots of great minds lost? Kids play sports, some go on to make big money chasing a ball or hitting one. In the 1970s, a portion of my highly educated classmates simply got jobs at one of the Big Three because their dad or other relative could get them in.

No, I now see the hand-wringing and comments like, “kids aren’t getting a good education in this country” as slogans for the ‘just say yes to evolution’ movement. It may seem to those outside of the non-Catholic Christian community that the Bible-thumpers are all hayseeds from small towns with what are called small town mentalities. But they are aware of a fundamental struggle that has been going on for a long time.

The following is a quote from humanist, John Dunphy:

"I am convinced that the battle for mankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classrooms by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith…
“The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new - the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith … resplendent in its promise…”

Excerpted from Dark Secrets of the New Age by Texe Marrs

Peace,
Ed
 
Any such developments here and now would be easy pray for the existing biota.
-TS
Prey is something preyed upon. In order to be prey for existing biota the life form must first be spontaneously generated.

Thus, are you assuming spontaneous generation still occurs, but that we never actually see it because it all too quickly gets turned into lunch?
 
I’m a Catholic kid who wanted to do ‘real science,’ but was steered by God in another direction. When I say I am not a Creationist, I mean that card-carrying caricature that appears in the secular press.

Peace,
Ed
Why did you say ID is not creationist?

This is not the only blatantly false defensive remark you have made about ID.
 
Prey is something preyed upon. In order to be prey for existing biota the life form must first be spontaneously generated.
“Prey”. Thank you.
Thus, are you assuming spontaneous generation still occurs, but that we never actually see it because it all too quickly gets turned into lunch?
I’m not assuming that, I’m concluding that. From what we can tell, the catalyzing conditions for the key assemblies may not be available, or at least may be far less common in the earth’s current state. That suggests it not something likely to just appear on the moldy bread you left out too long, but in the case that such an assembly should happen, once it reached the point of sufficient noticability by us, it would have been easy lunch for something else, yes. That is, knowing what we know about the biological activity of our world today, it would be very difficult for any new, novel assemblies to get beyond the very first steps.

That is, if spontaneously generation still occurs. It can’t be ruled out, but I am not aware of what the particular conditions would need to be, nor whether those conditions are extant or prevalent in the contemporary environment.

-TS
 
Are you standing by the claim that these are Haeckel’s diagrams, as claimed in the title and content of the article you linked?
The issue was fraud, obfuscation, sophistry and lack of honesty that one can find among Darwinian claims.
Here are the two drawings – the ones Dawkins used to show the “similarity” of life forms, and then Haeckel’s frauds complete with gill slits.
I’ll let the public decide.

http://creationbydesign.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/dawkins_drawings.jpg?w=500&h=364

http://creationbydesign.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/haeckels_drawings1.jpg?w=500&h=309
 
Why did you say ID is not creationist?

This is not the only blatantly false defensive remark you have made about ID.
Intelligent Design is based on observations of current living things. I’ll give the definition once more. Complex, interconnected and interdependent components of living things, like cells, look like nanomachinery because they are nanomachinery. Comments from Richard Dawkins that living things look designed but are not, according to him, ignores, according to me and the theory, the obvious.

Is your actual purpose here just to discredit something?

Peace,
Ed
 
I’m a Catholic kid who wanted to do ‘real science,’ but was steered by God in another direction. When I say I am not a Creationist, I mean that card-carrying caricature that appears in the secular press. I only trust the Holy Father and the Catholic Church on this issue. I have no political party affiliation. I think it is irrational to think that ‘my party, right or wrong’ is the right way to run a country.

Lots of great minds lost? Kids play sports, some go on to make big money chasing a ball or hitting one. In the 1970s, a portion of my highly educated classmates simply got jobs at one of the Big Three because their dad or other relative could get them in.

No, I now see the hand-wringing and comments like, “kids aren’t getting a good education in this country” as slogans for the ‘just say yes to evolution’ movement. It may seem to those outside of the non-Catholic Christian community that the Bible-thumpers are all hayseeds from small towns with what are called small town mentalities. But they are aware of a fundamental struggle that has been going on for a long time.
I think that statement there – “a fundamental struggle that has been going on for a long time” – IS the calling card for the Creationist mentality that is decried in the secular culture. You say “that’s not me”, but the rest of your words here say “that’s me”.
The following is a quote from humanist, John Dunphy:
"I am convinced that the battle for mankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classrooms by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith…
“The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new - the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith … resplendent in its promise…”
OK, fine. To recall an old Jesuit observation:

Give Me the Boy Until the Age of Seven, I Will Give You the Man.
Excerpted from Dark Secrets of the New Age by Texe Marrs
Peace,
Ed
I think the strategic importance of the teaching authority for young minds is not in question. That is why science sees a need to advocate for scientific thinking and factual, empirical approaches to education. It is fact-based science itself, not the metaphysical extrapolations from it (philosophical materialism, for example, or even Catholic theism) that are problematic, oer even relevant for that kind of instruction: the product of the scientific method as the scientific method is obejctionable, because it works against carefully constructed and vigilantly guarded worldviews that are theologically hostile to facts and conclusions as the scientific method renders them.

-TS
 
“Prey”. Thank you.

I’m not assuming that, I’m concluding that. From what we can tell, the catalyzing conditions for the key assemblies may not be available, or at least may be far less common in the earth’s current state. That suggests it not something likely to just appear on the moldy bread you left out too long, but in the case that such an assembly should happen, once it reached the point of sufficient noticability by us, it would have been easy lunch for something else, yes. That is, knowing what we know about the biological activity of our world today, it would be very difficult for any new, novel assemblies to get beyond the very first steps.

That is, if spontaneously generation still occurs. It can’t be ruled out, but I am not aware of what the particular conditions would need to be, nor whether those conditions are extant or prevalent in the contemporary environment.

-TS
I think spontaneous generation is a cool idea. It was believed for millenniums. Then scientists disproved it. (T.H. Huxley still believed in SG.). But then scientists believe SG to have occurred in that primeval soup. Additionally, you conclude that SG can still get started, at least.

I was contrasting environments, old and new. Scientists are working to simulate the harsh primeval environment in which life arose billions of years ago. But we have no idea what conditions of our present, life friendly environment, if any at all, are conducive to SG. I love paradoxes, as you see.
 
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