Myth of evolution and new drug discovery

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Well, ending in skepticism is a good thing, and precisely that which qualifies knowledge, doubt being the foundation of all knowledge, and knowledge being that which withstands reasoning doubt. Skepticism is not the dismissal of knowledge, but the acceptance of it on reasoning grounds, so as to best separate knowledge from pretense to knowledge.

-TS
Always knew that my old issue of the Skeptic magazine would come in handy some day.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the magazine’s definition of skeptic is too long to post. Three of its points are that “If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism.” “Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims.” and “A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement.” The magazine refers to modern skepticism being embodied in the scientific method in which all facts are provisional and subject to challenge…

It is hard for me to tell if you are equating doubt with skepticism. Either way, I can’t quite see either as the foundation of all knowledge. Furthermore a provisional approach to life’s major questions makes me nervous as does the idea of there being no certitude.
 
Always knew that my old issue of the Skeptic magazine would come in handy some day.:rolleyes:
Unfortunately, the magazine’s definition of skeptic is too long to post. Three of its points are that “If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism.” “Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims.” and “A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement.” The magazine refers to modern skepticism being embodied in the scientific method in which all facts are provisional and subject to challenge…

It is hard for me to tell if you are equating doubt with skepticism. Either way, I can’t quite see either as the foundation of all knowledge. Furthermore a provisional approach to life’s major questions makes me nervous as does the idea of there being no certitude.
Magazines like that try do define “skepticism” in a way that seems palatable. Skepticism can be studied historically beginning with the ancient Greeks. Socrates and Plato attacked the skepticism of the Sophists. After the decline of the classical period one finds skepticism on the rise with Pyrrho, and so on.

Skepticism becomes popular during periods of cultural turmoil and decline. It’s largely a psychological reaction. This is seen in modern times following the mess consequent to two world wars.

There are degrees of skepticism. Extreme skepticism maintains that truth does not exist; and that certitude about anything is impossible. This type of skeptic is certain about his belief, and will go to his grave claiming as true the proposition that says truth does not exist…

Need I say more?
 
Always knew that my old issue of the Skeptic magazine would come in handy some day.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the magazine’s definition of skeptic is too long to post. Three of its points are that “If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism.” “Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims.” and “A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement.” The magazine refers to modern skepticism being embodied in the scientific method in which all facts are provisional and subject to challenge…

It is hard for me to tell if you are equating doubt with skepticism. Either way, I can’t quite see either as the foundation of all knowledge. Furthermore a provisional approach to life’s major questions makes me nervous as does the idea of there being no certitude.
I will say more.

There is an immoderate skepticism among scientists of the scientism mentality. They are skeptical of any claims that cannot be verified by scientific method. Of course, it is beyond the scope and competence of the particular sciences to rationally justify that kind of skepticism. Hence, the irony of scientism to make its meta-scientific claim about knowledge.

There is a healthy skepticism that holds scientific conclusions as provisional, since discoveries may require a modification of theory, or a complete debunking of it.

The more general and encompassing a scientific theory is, the more reserve is needed. In fact, in regard to abiogenesis, T.H. Huxley rightly observed that the theory is a metaphysical vision, a “sort of philosophic faith.” This he saw was true also with evolution theory, which connects facts over long periods of time and places. Evolution theory is a metaphysical vision. Huxley’s remarks can be found in his lectures on biogenesis and abiogenesis. Huxley was right. This is the nature of broad scientific theories.

In practice, scientists don’t often retain a healthy skepticism because they are searching for the truth about nature, and they like to believe they have acquired truth, which in fact they often do. It has been only in modern times that man has achieved a truly scientific understanding of the cosmos.
 
The problems are both logical and philosophical. The logical problems stem from the pre-investigative assumptions that determined how and what questions were asked, and those same assumptions likewise determined post-investigative conclusions. It was no wonder Darwin came up with so many different definitions of “species”. But that is a long discussion in itself.
The idea that natural processes were sufficient to account for the development and diversification of all biological life had unavoidable, stark implications for Darwin. It removed a “pillar” that had borne heavy loads for theistic belief. Before even bringing God’s existence into question, it naturally(!) threatened the idea of man being ontologically unique from the rest of the life on the planet. The idea made man just an ordinary leaf, if big-brained one, on the tree of life. Whatever one thinks of “ensoulment”, Darwin’s idea made man a peer of every other species in a perfectly egalitarian way, biologically.

But the challenge for Darwin, and for us, is not to “reshape reality”; reality is what it is. Rather, what to do about it now that we have beheld things as they are, in a new and more penetrating (and in many cases disturbing) way. “Dark implications” don’t become ‘undark’ by looking away. Futures become and remain bright because of choices me make in light of the facts, and even in spite of them.
I clearly was not using the term “skepticism” in the sense that you are using it. Hence, your response fails to address the issue. There is a healthy skepticism, indeed. There is also a philosophical skepticism that doubts the existence of any truth or genuine knowledge of the world. I was clearly using it in this sense. And to be sure, I associated it with the term solipsism. A good scientist pays attention to details and facts in nature and in text.
It wasn’t clear you were being redundant there, and there’s no reason to think those two are synonyms, as they represent very different concepts. Skepticism – the strong and reasonable application of doubt and testing to any claim – separates knowledge from pretense to knowledge.
You don’t seem to know enough about philosophy or theology to render a competent judgement in that matter. I don’t think any scientist worthy of his profession would pontificate on that in which he has no expertise. Unfortunately, they do all the time, which is one of the reason why Einstein said the man of science makes a poor philosopher. Einstein saw you coming, dude.
Well, philosophy makes for a poor philosophy, often enough, as does theology. Talk is cheap, claims and intutions are a dime-a-dozen. Florid language about fanciful, speculative metaphysics and cosmic intuitions are just so much “invisible clothes for the Emperor” until they pass some skeptical evaluation, prove themselves against real world critical analysis.

Scientists do make poor philosophers often enough, as they forget what builds knowledge and what qualifies knowledge, and suppose they are just as able to indulge themselves in fanciful conjectures and pretentious musing as much as anyone else. And that’s their prerogative just as much as it is anyone else’s.
Tell me what the difference is between the two, and, what implications for knowledge does each one have?
  1. Ideas are that which we know.
  2. Ideas are that by which we know.
I think “idea” is a poor term to invoke for knowledge – it’s a fuzzy pointer to a “subject of thinking”. A concept is a set of relationships between subject and objects. To the extent a concept is propositionally isomorphic to a state of the extramental world, or to a analytic framework (e.g. math or some other symbolic calculus), the concept becomes “true” or “false” as the isomorphism between the concept and the external context tightens or loosens.

Concepts then, can be both statements of knowledge, or predicates by which knowledge is derived. Some concepts are simply associative, tautological, and thus not knowledge themselves. Other concepts represent knowledge directly (or not, depending on the correspondence to the external world/framework).
  1. Concepts represent units of knowledge.
  2. Concepts represent tools by which we acquire and assess knowledge.
-TS
 
The idea that natural processes were sufficient to account for the development and diversification of all biological life had unavoidable, stark implications for Darwin. It removed a “pillar” that had borne heavy loads for theistic belief. Before even bringing God’s existence into question, it naturally(!) threatened the idea of man being ontologically unique from the rest of the life on the planet. The idea made man just an ordinary leaf, if big-brained one, on the tree of life. Whatever one thinks of “ensoulment”, Darwin’s idea made man a peer of every other species in a perfectly egalitarian way, biologically.

But the challenge for Darwin, and for us, is not to “reshape reality”; reality is what it is. Rather, what to do about it now that we have beheld things as they are, in a new and more penetrating (and in many cases disturbing) way. “Dark implications” don’t become ‘undark’ by looking away. Futures become and remain bright because of choices me make in light of the facts, and even in spite of them.
It wasn’t clear you were being redundant there, and there’s no reason to think those two are synonyms, as they represent very different concepts. Skepticism – the strong and reasonable application of doubt and testing to any claim – separates knowledge from pretense to knowledge.

Well, philosophy makes for a poor philosophy, often enough, as does theology. Talk is cheap, claims and intutions are a dime-a-dozen. Florid language about fanciful, speculative metaphysics and cosmic intuitions are just so much “invisible clothes for the Emperor” until they pass some skeptical evaluation, prove themselves against real world critical analysis.
Oh, how provincial! Your thinking shows you are just a product of your environment. You adhere to a common ideology that is most illiberal. So be it.
I think “idea” is a poor term to invoke for knowledge – it’s a fuzzy pointer to a “subject of thinking”. A concept is a set of relationships between subject and objects. To the extent a concept is propositionally isomorphic to a state of the extramental world, or to a analytic framework (e.g. math or some other symbolic calculus), the concept becomes “true” or “false” as the isomorphism between the concept and the external context tightens or loosens.

Concepts then, can be both statements of knowledge, or predicates by which knowledge is derived. Some concepts are simply associative, tautological, and thus not knowledge themselves. Other concepts represent knowledge directly (or not, depending on the correspondence to the external world/framework).
  1. Concepts represent units of knowledge.
  2. Concepts represent tools by which we acquire and assess knowledge.
-TS
This is not a very rigorous analysis you have presented. For instance, to say that “Concepts then, can be both statements of knowledge, or predicates by which knowledge is derived” is to conflate concepts with language.

“Idea” can be used as a synonym for concept. Your attempts at redefining “idea” reflects a poor understanding of intellect.

Try this question. What is the difference between the following statements as far as knowledge is concerned?
  1. Concepts are that which we know
  2. Concepts arr that by which we know
 
Modernity and illiberality; thoughts apropos by G.K. Chesterton:

“To be merely modern is to condemn oneself to an absolute narrowness; just as to spend one’s last earthly money on the newest hat is to condemn oneself to the old-fashioned. The road of the ancient centuries is strewn with dead moderns.”
 
All you are saying is that it is a matter of how genetics interacts with the environment. The old its not just nature or environment but how the two interact. I was hoping you could think a little deeper and realize this level of analysis, when applied to mind, still posits a dependence of everything about the mind on antecedent events, and hence is ultimately reducible to genetics, genetics understood of course in how it gets expressed, which varies with each individual.That’s elementary, Watson.

How about employing some of that “rational analysis” you were singing about earlier. Or, wuz dey jes sum big n’ fancy werds?
Yeah, way ahead of you here, you’re stuck in a “all is genetic” groove, and it ain’t nearly so. The brain, even in the most stridently materialistic view, is not hardly to genetics. The brain is highly plastic, and heavily contingent on the environment it develops in. Gene expression doesn’t begin to cover it.

Neuroplastictity makes learning, thinking and experiencing in different ways change both its functional organization as well as its physical structure. No part of your body is less reducible to your genetics than your brain, and no part of your body is so radically altered and developmentally dependent on your environment, activities and experiences. If you think gene expression will account or all that, you’re behind on your reading.

-TS
 
Yeah, way ahead of you here, you’re stuck in a “all is genetic” groove, and it ain’t nearly so. The brain, even in the most stridently materialistic view, is not hardly to genetics. The brain is highly plastic, and heavily contingent on the environment it develops in. Gene expression doesn’t begin to cover it.

Neuroplastictity makes learning, thinking and experiencing in different ways change both its functional organization as well as its physical structure. No part of your body is less reducible to your genetics than your brain, and no part of your body is so radically altered and developmentally dependent on your environment, activities and experiences. If you think gene expression will account or all that, you’re behind on your reading.

-TS
Balderdash! I was taking all that into account with my reference to environmental factors.
Give it another shot, ace!
 
Yeah, way ahead of you here, you’re stuck in a “all is genetic” groove, and it ain’t nearly so. The brain, even in the most stridently materialistic view, is not hardly to genetics. The brain is highly plastic, and heavily contingent on the environment it develops in. Gene expression doesn’t begin to cover it.

Neuroplastictity makes learning, thinking and experiencing in different ways change both its functional organization as well as its physical structure. No part of your body is less reducible to your genetics than your brain, and no part of your body is so radically altered and developmentally dependent on your environment, activities and experiences. If you think gene expression will account or all that, you’re behind on your reading.

-TS
BTW, you’ll never find concepts in your highly plastic brain.
 
Always knew that my old issue of the Skeptic magazine would come in handy some day.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the magazine’s definition of skeptic is too long to post. Three of its points are that “If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism.” “Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims.” and “A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement.” The magazine refers to modern skepticism being embodied in the scientific method in which all facts are provisional and subject to challenge…
Skepticism as a current term is pretty much an overlap with the scientific process’ critical analysis. Confidence in propositions should be apportioned to the quality and depth of evidence supporting it, etc., and objectivity and outside review are premiums.

And contrary to trite apologetics that come up on this from time to time, skepticism is good and necessary to apply to skepticism itself. That is, it’s important to turn a critical on how one’s skeptical critiques are being applied, and what they produce. What is the evidence that one’s skepticism is functioning toward knowledge? Why should we think our current practice is properly critical, but not denying propositions that have reasonable empirical support and coherent reasoning and logic?
It is hard for me to tell if you are equating doubt with skepticism. Either way, I can’t quite see either as the foundation of all knowledge. Furthermore a provisional approach to life’s major questions makes me nervous as does the idea of there being no certitude.
Well, it should make you nervous, I guess, because certitude is highly problematic epistemologically. We can be certain about tautological truths, but they are just trivially true. We can also be certain about necessary transcendental truths – e.g, “I exist or I wouldn’t be here to be thinking and writing this sentence”, but this provides a very small “certainty footprint”. Other propositions come with epistemic issues that make certainty a kind of abstract ideal, something we can shoot for, but can never reach, using empirical and rational resources we have at our disposal.

I do understand that religious epistemologies offer their own notions of certainty, though, and I think one of the social draws of many faiths is the appeal of these forms of certainty that they promise to subscribers.

As for doubt, for our purposes here I’d say its interchangeable with skepticism. Knowledge claims without qualification are just claims. Until and unless a belief can withstand the tests of doubt – of skeptical, critical analysis, it doesn’t deserve the name “knowledge”, and stands as just a claim.

-TS

(And yes – not you, necessarily grannymh, but there’s always someone who thinks they’ve got a novel bit of cleverness in asking this – that last bit is just as subject to its own terms as any other claim…)
 
I do understand that religious epistemologies offer their own notions of certainty, though, and I think one of the social draws of many faiths is the appeal of these forms of certainty that they promise to subscribers.
There is no such thing as “religious epistemologies”, just as there is no such thing as religious algebra.
 
There is a story about Catholic math, sort of:

Little Johnny was failing miserably in math in public school, so his parents transferred him to a Catholic school.

Within a matter of days Johnny was coming home with straight “A’s” on his math assignments.

His parents were stunned and asked Johnny how he was doing so well in math so quickly.

Johnny replied, “When a saw that man nailed to the plus sign, I knew they were serious about math.”
 
Folks,please check out this site, www.johnthebaptist.us. It is hosted by a Catholic man.
It’s not a very Catholic site. In fact, it’s down right heretical. Anyone who believes Pope Benedict XVI is the anti-pope shouldn’t call himself Catholic. Take a hike, Monarchist. I’d rather talk with atheists than people like you.
 
Balderdash! I was taking all that into account with my reference to environmental factors.
Give it another shot, ace!
I think your focus on being cheeky here is getting in the way of making your point. Here is what you said in the post I replied to:
All you are saying is that it is a matter of how genetics interacts with the environment. The old its not just nature or environment but how the two interact. I was hoping you could think a little deeper and realize this level of analysis, when applied to mind, still posits a dependence of everything about the mind on antecedent events, and hence is ultimately reducible to genetics, genetics understood of course in how it gets expressed, which varies with each individual.That’s elementary, Watson.
How about employing some of that “rational analysis” you were singing about earlier. Or, wuz dey jes sum big n’ fancy werds?
(my emphasis)

I am just reading what you give me – everything about the mind is dependent on antecedent events and thus is reducible “genetics, genetics understood of course in how it gets expressed, which varies with each individual”. Which you add is “elementary”, just for a nice twist of irony, there.

But even if you meant “expression” in some non-technical sense, as opposed to “gene expression” the production of proteins from transcrtion of DNA, genetics in any sense do not determine what gets put into the brain, shaping it, filling it with images, language, emotional reactions based on interactions with people and things one is surrounded with. The brain, as I said, doesn’t reduce to genetics, based on what we know of its behavior, structure, and contents. If you are given the genetics for the brain of an individual, and all the details of its expression – all the proteins produced in its development and even we can throw in whatever epigenetic factors you like, and that won’t be sufficient to tell us recreate the brain that was built from those genes.
BTW, you’ll never find concepts in your highly plastic brain.
Well, I suppose the “real” concept is reserved for the immaterial domain in your world, your claim is trivial by virtue of your definiton of “concept”, but the researchers who study this stuff have been putting out lots of finding like this - a recent study that used fMRI to locate the parts of the brain that are utilized to do semantic processing for abstract and concrete concepts:

**Distinct Brain Systems for Processing Concrete and Abstract Concepts
**

Behavioral and neurophysiological effects of word imageability and concreteness remain a topic of central interest in cognitive neuroscience and could provide essential clues for understanding how the brain processes conceptual knowledge. We examined these effects using event-related functional magnetic resonance imaging while participants identified concrete and abstract words. Relative to nonwords, concrete and abstract words both activated a left-lateralized network of multimodal association areas previously linked with verbal semantic processing. Areas in the left lateral temporal lobe were equally activated by both word types, whereas bilateral regions including the angular gyrus and the dorsal prefrontal cortex were more strongly engaged by concrete words. Relative to concrete words, abstract words activated left inferior frontal regions previously linked with phonological and verbal working memory processes. The results show overlapping but partly distinct neural systems for processing concrete and abstract concepts, with greater involvement of bilateral association areas during concrete word processing, and processing of abstract concepts almost exclusively by the left hemisphere.
(my emphasis)

Those warlocks! 😉

-TS
 
As you say, losing three quarters of one’s brain would make anyone reluctant to trade with my cousin chilly chimp. However, trading wasn’t the issue. As I recall, it was the issue of whether or not there was a spiritual component intimately united with the corporal body to make one human being. The exercise was to find out how it would feel if humans had only the evolution of their material body just like the brute animals.
Ahh, OK. You would not want to trade into a position where you had no claim on a soul, or some other disctinctive the “united spiritual and corporal” person has that you value, that a brute animal lacks. I think I understand you now.
Neither you nor I. I would say that we are both comfortable with the idea of sharing the material component of our nature with other animals. I believe in the unity of creation. Besides what would we eat if we weren’t compatible with animals and plants?
Mountain Dew and Twinkies? I think those are both inorganic food sources, right?
You do have me on the conceit issue. I do think that I am one up over the animal kingdom. Yet, I don’t look down on animals. They are really important in our lives. It’s viva la difference – you know what I mean.😃
Well, there’s a lot of conceit available if that’s the need on a naturalist view. Having a collossal brain compared to chilly chimp, and everything else definitely qualifies as “one up”, and more (if you doubt this, remember our reluctance to trade down on those terms!). Such a brain with the natural upgrades humans have – language, theory of mind, moral sense, abstract reasoning, n-level recursion… what do we need an immaterial soul, again, for?

Oh right, I remember now…

-TS
 
There is no such thing as “religious epistemologies”, just as there is no such thing as religious algebra.
Hmmm…

Religious Epistemology - The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
**
The Epistemology of Religion - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy**
http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Perspectives-Religious-Epistemology-Douglas/dp/019507324X
**Contemporary Perspectives on Religious Epistemology

**The Epistemology of Religious Experience - Cambridge University Press

Evidence and Transcendence: Religious Epistemology and the God-World Relationship


The Elusive God: Reorienting Religious Epistemology

And of course, a book that doesn’t have “Religious Epistemology” in the title, but is all about religious epistemology, and a “must read” on the subject:

Warranted Christian Belief** – Alvin Plantinga**

More where those came from, if you need.

-TS
 
I think your focus on being cheeky here is getting in the way of making your point. Here is what you said in the post I replied to:

(my emphasis)

I am just reading what you give me – everything about the mind is dependent on antecedent events and thus is reducible “genetics, genetics understood of course in how it gets expressed, which varies with each individual”. Which you add is “elementary”, just for a nice twist of irony, there.

But even if you meant “expression” in some non-technical sense, as opposed to “gene expression” the production of proteins from transcrtion of DNA, genetics in any sense do not determine what gets put into the brain, shaping it, filling it with images, language, emotional reactions based on interactions with people and things one is surrounded with. The brain, as I said, doesn’t reduce to genetics, based on what we know of its behavior, structure, and contents. If you are given the genetics for the brain of an individual, and all the details of its expression – all the proteins produced in its development and even we can throw in whatever epigenetic factors you like, and that won’t be sufficient to tell us recreate the brain that was built from those genes.

Well, I suppose the “real” concept is reserved for the immaterial domain in your world, your claim is trivial by virtue of your definiton of “concept”, but the researchers who study this stuff have been putting out lots of finding like this - a recent study that used fMRI to locate the parts of the brain that are utilized to do semantic processing for abstract and concrete concepts:

**Distinct Brain Systems for Processing Concrete and Abstract Concepts
**

(my emphasis)

Those warlocks! 😉

-TS
Until you grasp the concepts of necessary and sufficient conditions of cognitive processes you are wasting your time. You ignored the distinction and how it applies to the issues when it was brought up. Hence you are unwilling to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion about cognitive activity, brain research, mind-body problems, and so on.

You said "Well, I suppose the “real” concept is reserved for the immaterial domain in your world, your claim is trivial by virtue of your definiton of “concept.” You are talking pure, unadulterated nonsense because I never gave my definition of concept. I just challenged your flawed definition. Neither did I define “idea”. You just evaded the whole conversation. A very strange tactic indeed.

You also said, “a recent study that used fMRI to locate the parts of the brain that are utilized to do semantic processing for abstract and concrete concepts.” There is nothing in these studies that contradicts anything I said. You would know that if you understood the studies and understood what I have been saying. Furthermore, the media and incautious advocates of a point of view, like yourself, make more out of these studies than the researchers themselves do.

There is no consistent logic to your arguments because, frankly, you are way in over your head with this stuff. You avoid the critical points and continue as if the critical points don’t exist. You’ll have take your “straw man” arguments against your imaginary ideas such as “religious epistemology” and proceed with out me. My time is better spent in serious discussion.

P.S. No cigar and no more do overs.
 
Anybody can post a bunch of links. It’s unfortunate that you have not read and understood any of the articles you are linking to. If you had you would understand that properly speaking epistemology is a philosophical discipline and does not take its premises from what is above the natural light of reason. There are specialized epistemological studies that concern themselves with religious knowledge.

The bottom line is that I was using philosophical epistemic notions and you were deliberately mischaracterizing them as religious so you could feel justified in writing them off. Obviously, you have no background in epistemology or cognitive psychology.
 
“…I remember well the time when the thought of the eye made me cold all over, but I have got over this stage of the complaint, and now small trifling particulars of structure often make me feel uncomfortable. The sight of a feather in a peacock’s tail, whenever I gaze at it, makes me sick!” (Darwin to Asa Gray Apr. 3, 1860)

Well… go right ahead Charlie or should we call you Chuck :coolinoff:.

View attachment 6829

When the design of the feather is looked at, it is obvious that it could not have arisen naturally since the information for the mathematical formations are not inherent to the barbs themselves.

View attachment 6828

View attachment 6827

The bronze and blue colour needs to start and stop along each individual barb to produce the pattern and this needs to be precise to be mathematically accurate.

If you look at the link Rossum provided :New Glimpses of Life’s Puzzling Origins it states ***“Yet rocks that formed on Earth 3.8 billion years ago, almost as soon as the bombardment had stopped, contain possible evidence of biological processes.” ***They believe peacocks feathers have their origin in rocks.

All the experiments by Takahashi, et al, Petrie, Loyau et al, Yasmin, Yahya et al, Marion, Halliday, Sanders, Carolyn et al only serve to demonstrate that peacocks and peahens reproduce peacocks and peahens, just as the **Book of Genesis **says they would, so they are no help to the theory of evolution.
 
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