N. Ireland soccer mob beats Catholic man to death

[Mickey_Finn]

Yeah, literally. It seems to me you’re saying “there’s no separation of church and state in America because I can’t find the exact words “separation of church and state” in the Constitution.” When I pointed you to the establishment clause in the first amendment, which does erect a wall between organized religion and organized government, you basically ignored it. Your task now should be to explain why the establishment clause doesn’t represent a separation of church and state, which you haven’t done.

Pax Christi.

“As for seperation of church and state. It’s not actually in the constitution. Something like it appears in the federalist papers though.” This is what I said. Turns out the letter I was thinking of was written by Jefferson to a group of baptist, in 1802. Well after the constitution was wrtten and ratified.

Jharek is right. This has nothing to do with the tragedy that befell the McDaid family.

 

[A.Pelliccio]

More proof the Ireland must become United, Gaelic, Free (and Catholic).

26+6=1.

 

[Brickmaker]

More proof the Ireland must become United, Gaelic, Free (and Catholic).

26+6=1.

Isn’t that up to the Irish people to decide?

(And I wouldn’t bet on them staying with the Catholic bit if you should deign to allow them some self-determination)

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98DEIAO0&show_article=1
Several carloads of Protestants drove into a Catholic area of N. Ireland, armed with clubs and beat to death a totally inncent Catholic man, Kevin McDaid. Detective Chief Inspector Frankie Taylor said the dead man had four children, did volunteer youth work in the town, and had been encouraging local Catholics to cooperate with Northern Ireland’s traditionally Protestant police. He described McDaid as “a man who would do anything for anybody.”

My comment: I am outraged by these Protestants who are coming into the Catholic neighborhoods and murdering innocent people. This was a decent and good man with four children. Time and time again we see Protestants in N. Ireland marching and attempting to provoke Catholics. Why are they in Ireland in the first place. Ireland belongs to the Irish and that includes all of northern Ireland which was taken from them by the invading British. I don;t know why the British have been going around enslaving people and somehow think that they can get away with it. These Bristish slave master classes in n, ireland are a holdover from the penal laws intorduced in 1691 according to which no Irish Catholic could sit in the Parliament of Ireland, even though some 90% of Ireland’s population was native Irish Catholic. This ban was followed by others in 1703 and 1709 as part of a comprehensive system by Protestants enslaving the Catholics in Ireland, It established the English Protestant ruling class in Ireland.

 

[rjs1]

It goes without saying that what happened is a disgrace. As the article says, the perpetrators attacked the first people they came across. Several people were admitted to hospital - six people, if I recall correctly. I heard the wife of the deceased man speaking on the radio this morning. She mentioned that with her and her husband was a pregnant lady. People were imploring the attackers to stay away from her because she was pregnant, but this fact had no effect and they continued their beatings with impunity.

I must say, however, that I am rather curious about some of your comments, Bobzills. “Time and time again we see Protestants in N. Ireland marching and attempting to provoke Catholics” - it is important to remember that, while the British occupation of Northern Ireland may be ultimately at the root of the problem, the violence has come from both sides of the divide. Catholics have not been the sole victims of the Northern Ireland violence - not by a long shot. You then ask “why are they in Ireland in the first place?” That question is asked after you have mentioned provokation by Protestants, and hence it seems that you are asking why Protestants are in Ireland, whereas, after asking the question, you refer to the British. These are two very different issues and the history of Ireland shows that Protestantism does not equate to “Britishness” or Loyalism, nor does Catholicism necessarily equate to Nationalism. Some of the greatest figures in our history have been both Protestant and Nationalist - our first president, Dr Douglas Hyde, for example, came from a Protestant family (his father was an Anglican rector), and the Nationalist leader, Robert Emmet was also from a Protestant background. Some of the greatest supporters of Irish culture - especially the Irish language - have been Protestants.

Even if your question was meant to read “why are the British in Ireland…”, I think in the context of the article, such a question is irrelevant. Northern Ireland is in the best state that it has been for decades. The political situation has improved so much - even I have seen that in my short life! I don’t even think that it’s politics or religion that’s at the root of these outbursts of violence. It seems to me that it is, plain and simple, thuggery. However, I do believe that history has a part in this thuggery, but only in the sense that in the past, divisions were an excuse to cause violence and people got away with it. “Sectarianism” has become an excuse for any violence which occurs in the North. It normalises violence - it can’t just be that a man was brutally murdered; rather a Catholic was murdered by a Protestant, hence it was for political/religious reasons, hence it’s more understandable, and it seems that the culpability of those hooligans is diminished.

NPC,
This is an excellent and totally balanced view! I wish more thought like you.

I have about a third Irish in me and for years I have been so embarrassed by the violence in Ireland from both sides. I agree with you that the cause is not really religious at all. The beating of that man was, as you said, pure “thugishness”. We seem to live in an increasingly violent world where gangs of thugs think it is fun to bash or kill someone. We are having this sort of trouble here in Australia where various gangs will attack people with knives or guns for no real reason at all.

The situation in Ireland seemed to me to really improving so I am very disappointed to read about this attack.

 

[bobzills]

The situation in Ireland seemed to me to really improving so I am very disappointed to read about this attack.

We can hope for the best, of course, but I don’t see where these parades by the Protestant Orangemen near the Catholic areas are helping the situation.

 

[bibagirl]

What a messy discussion!! I´m always vaguely annoyed when non-Irish people start shooting their mouth off about the situation in Northern Ireland. I´m Irish (as in BORN and RAISED in Ireland) and the situation in Northern Ireland is so unbelievably complex that I barely understand it myself. I live in Spain and people are always asking me about it (they see it as being similar to the Basque country situation) but I NEVER enter into discussion about it because it´s just too delicate and complex to explain to somebody over a pint.

And it really gets my goat when people talk about it like a religious war or something . it couldn´t be further from the truth!! It´s a clash of TRIBES, and for convenience sake it´s easiest to identify the two tribes by the religion but the religion is not the problem at all. It´s the ETHNIC and POLITICAL issues that arose when the English and Scottish planters arrived in force to Ireland hundreds of years ago. And their descendants have the perfect right to live and thrive in Ireland now as they have been settled in the country for hundreds of years

Basically NOBODY is totally right in this situation, and violence is never excusable. This issue should not even make an appearance on this website because it is not a religious issue, it´s not that Protestants killed a Catholic man because he´s Catholic - rather, it´s a flare up of tensions between two groups with deep political and ethnic differences, who happen to go to different churches on a Sunday.

As for the discussion that arose about Jews and religious diverity etc - in my small coastal town in Ireland, there´s a Protestant Church (Church of Ireland) with a small enough but signifigant following. Also the chemist in the town is an Irish Jew (Coen). The Doctor´s surgery is located in what was formerly the Methodist Church (although it seems their congregation died out some time ago). These people are absolutely Irish for many generations and there´s no problem. Now we have the new Irish - African immigrants who have gained Irish citizanship. Some are catholic and some aren´t. Ireland never was a totally one State religion.

 

[soflochristmas]

Seems to me Ireland is a microcosm of the wester world/culture or the EU. Everybody (i.e., the "cutlure) is “tollerant”, educated, and materially wealthy, but nobody knows how they got there…their Catholic roots.

 

[soflochristmas]

Nevertheless when most people talk about the “separation of Church and State” they are talking about the Establishment Clause, which I cited. You may be literally right in saying the word “separation” does not occur in the Constitution, but you are wrong if you mean by that that the U.S. government is not constitutionally prohibited from regulating religious life here (and thank God for that).

Unfortunately people’s rudamentary understanding of this has come to mean religious beliefs and spirituality should have no role in public affairs. This is tragic and has nothing to do with either the establishment clause or the intent of our founding fathers.

 

[bibagirl]

Seems to me Ireland is a microcosm of the wester world/culture or the EU. Everybody (i.e., the "cutlure) is “tollerant”, educated, and materially wealthy, but nobody knows how they got there…their Catholic roots.

This is sad but true. I´m an Irish person under 30 so I´m a case in point. I abandoned the church as soon as I possibly could because I viewed some behaviour of the priests as being very hypocritical - very judgemental and unforgiving about sins, priests always seemed to pander to the wealthier parishioners while ignoring or even demeaning the less fortunate, basically lots of what I percieved as UNCHRISTIAN behaviour. I also viewed the chastity requirement for priests as anti-natural and almost perverted. Then in the 90s, the sex scandals started, Bishop Casey with his american woman and son, the sex abuse came to light etc. So I was one of a generation who resented being lectured on moral issues by an organisation whose members were commiting very grave sins with virtual impunity. As with most people my age, since we could not respect the Church´s hyprocracy, we just left in droves.

I now see that for all its faults the Catholic church does far more good than bad and I´ve come back into the fold. The Catholic Church really needs good PR now, lose the fuddy duddy image, be more accountable and transparent and it should be more relevant to today´s youth if it´s to survive into the next century. I really hope it does

 

[Jon_Paul]

UDA attack 9-year-old boy with bat:

A woman whose nine-year-old son was struck with a baseball bat in their Newtownabbey home has blamed the UDA for the attack.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8180339.stm

It makes me wish the Provos still had their guns.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8180339.stm

It makes me wish the Provos still had their guns.

How would that help?

In any case, as far as I know, Rathcoole is a largely Protestant area. Looks like both attackers and victims were Protestant (or not Catholic, anyway) The boy’s mother reckons the attack was because they had Catholic friends who sometimes visited them in Carmeen Drive.

 

[bibagirl]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8180339.stm

It makes me wish the Provos still had their guns.

This kind of comment really brings out the worst in me. This type of ignorant filth coming from from one who doesn´t even reside in the island of Ireland, unlikely to be Irish, (and therefore has a limited and skewed understanding of the situation). I´m guessing 8th generation “Irish” who supports Celtic, well wearing a green and white striped jersey does not give you an understanding into the complex problem of Northern Ireland.

These kind of silly nationalistic call-to-arms generally come from people who have no actual connection with Ireland, usually Americans and English who may have a great-great grandparent who was from Ireland. These people do not and cannot understand the reality in modern Ireland. It´s just embarrassing this kind of silly war-playing. The perception is that Irish people think like this and it´s just not true. It´s usually only plastic paddies who spout this garbage. Just keep quiet please. You are not doing the Republican cause any favours, you only are giving it a bad name.

Also there is always confusion when people identify themselves as Irish, when in reality they mean that they have irish ancestors. Irish means Irish citizans who reside (or have resided) in Ireland. It is very confusing when for example an American announces to an Irish person “I´m Irish”, I always think that they mean they are an Irish person who emigrated a long time ago and has perfected the american accent. It always prompts the question “what part of Ireland are YOU from” and it turns out that the paternal grandparents of this person may have been from Cork, or maybe Kerry, they are not sure. It´s a small point but it antagonises and confuses when people falsely identify themselves as compatriots.

BTW I know my tag reads that I´m located in Barcelona, but I was born and raised in Ireland, and am going home to the family today in fact.

 

[Jon_Paul]

How would that help?

Who else would have stopped such acts? Whilst I realise this specific attack may not have been prevented by the PIRA due to the nature of the Protestant family, what is to stop the UDA marching into Catholic neighbourhoods and doing the same to a Catholic mother and her son?

Catholics aren’t safe in the north and nor does it seem are Protestants. The British State of course will do nothing about this no matter how much they pipe on about.

In any case, as far as I know, Rathcoole is a largely Protestant area. Looks like both attackers and victims were Protestant (or not Catholic, anyway) The boy’s mother reckons the attack was because they had Catholic friends who sometimes visited them in Carmeen Drive.

I thought it was because they married into a Catholic family? Regardless. It just shows you how such scum act towards Catholics.

 

[Jon_Paul]

You misunderstood may. The Loyalists have clearly demonstrated above that they are scum. I didn’t make my comment as in my desire for a retaliation blow. My intentions were that such attacks could be aviodable as long as the Loyalists know that there are men and women with guns there to defend Irish people.

Regarding the bombing - whilst there are innocent people that have died as a result of the bombing campaign, the majority of the bombs went of as planned and indeed their campaign was quite successfulo in its intentions in trying to destablise and damagae the British economy.

Of course I agree that Loyalists and Republicans will never get exactly as they want.

I have a friend who is an ex loyalist prisoner (who btw has come to believe loyalist or republican violence was pointless) and his opinion is that the mother’s analysis is at least partly right as he’d be the first to admit that there is some woeful bigotry still at grassroots level in unionist areas - but before we get too smug, there is also some incredibly stupid stuff talked about unionists by nationalists. The bigotry is a two way street in N.Ireland and although historically unionist have held the power now as that changes insecurities in the unionist communitiy are leading to a lot of internal tensions and even more than normal levels of siege mentality that these kind of attacks are indicative of.

While I don’t deny bigoty and truly deplore it, You are also right that their siege mentally has only increased these past few years. It has resulted in attacks against Irish Catholics and now no one is there to defend Irish Catholic streets from Loyalist terrorists. Or even Irish Catholic criminals. Criminal activity has shot up since the PIRA decomissioned because those thugs know that they can get away with anything these days.

The British wont defend the Irish people. They do not have the Irish peoples best interests at heart. Don’t get me wrong, nor do those fools in the Republic.

 

[Jon_Paul]

This kind of comment really brings out the worst in me. This type of ignorant filth coming from from one who doesn´t even reside in the island of Ireland, unlikely to be Irish, (and therefore has a limited and skewed understanding of the situation). I´m guessing 8th generation “Irish” who supports Celtic, well wearing a green and white striped jersey does not give you an understanding into the complex problem of Northern Ireland.

These kind of silly nationalistic call-to-arms generally come from people who have no actual connection with Ireland, usually Americans and English who may have a great-great grandparent who was from Ireland. These people do not and cannot understand the reality in modern Ireland. It´s just embarrassing this kind of silly war-playing. The perception is that Irish people think like this and it´s just not true. It´s usually only plastic paddies who spout this garbage. Just keep quiet please. You are not doing the Republican cause any favours, you only are giving it a bad name.

Also there is always confusion when people identify themselves as Irish, when in reality they mean that they have irish ancestors. Irish means Irish citizans who reside (or have resided) in Ireland. It is very confusing when for example an American announces to an Irish person “I´m Irish”, I always think that they mean they are an Irish person who emigrated a long time ago and has perfected the american accent. It always prompts the question “what part of Ireland are YOU from” and it turns out that the paternal grandparents of this person may have been from Cork, or maybe Kerry, they are not sure. It´s a small point but it antagonises and confuses when people falsely identify themselves as compatriots.

BTW I know my tag reads that I´m located in Barcelona, but I was born and raised in Ireland, and am going home to the family today in fact.

It seems that your whole post is infact nothing other than an attempt to minimise my opinion based on the you’re-not-Irish card. Well fat chance. Whilst it is true that I was not born in Ireland, but Scotland, I am far from being “8th generation” Irish. I have family who permenantly reside in Ireland and I am talking about aunts, uncles and cousins. I my self hold dual-citizenship now by the way though I don’t believe holding a passport of the Banana Republic makes me anymore Irish than I already am.

Whilst it is true many Irish-Americans or Irish-English are nothing but plastic-paddies, seeing as I don’t hold your passport as anything of worth, I am not averse to considering a several-generation American removed to be Irish. Nor am I hostile to Irish-Americans who wish to celebrate their history and heritage.

You seem hostile however. I don’t understand that? Are you even from the north? Some would say that even the Irishmen and women in the south shouldn’t have a say in the matter. I may have grown up in Scotland but I grew up with many of the same social conditions as Irishmen in Belfast or Derry. One of my earliest childhood memories is of a day I spent in the local park, when an Orage Walk marched by. I was wearing a Celtic top. I was spat at, I had bottles thrown at me. My father and two brothers were nearly arrested for trying to defend me. Then there was the Protestant who lived up the street who loved to inform us at any given chance that if the Brits ever enforced a program like that of Nazi Germany had against the Jews, against Catholics, then he would be first down to the council office to inform them of our address. Or perhaps a few weeks ago, when I was walking to get some milk for my mother at the spar down the road. I decided to take a short-cut home and was chased by a group of thugs shouting insults at me for… suprise, suprise, being Catholic.

Yes, I didn’t grow with the threat of bombs going off, but never dare believe I grew up without the threat of violence. We were treated as bad in Scotland as ever in Northern Ireland. By the police and the population and the government. Though thank God that life was easier for me growing up than it was for my father and his brothers and sisters.

 

[bibagirl]

It seems that your whole post is infact nothing other than an attempt to minimise my opinion based on the you’re-not-Irish card. Well fat chance. Whilst it is true that I was not born in Ireland, but Scotland, I am far from being “8th generation” Irish. I have family who permenantly reside in Ireland and I am talking about aunts, uncles and cousins. I my self hold dual-citizenship now by the way though I don’t believe holding a passport of the Banana Republic makes me anymore Irish than I already am.

Whilst it is true many Irish-Americans or Irish-English are nothing but plastic-paddies, seeing as I don’t hold your passport as anything of worth, I am not averse to considering a several-generation American removed to be Irish. Nor am I hostile to Irish-Americans who wish to celebrate their history and heritage.

You seem hostile however. I don’t understand that? Are you even from the north? Some would say that even the Irishmen and women in the south shouldn’t have a say in the matter. I may have grown up in Scotland but I grew up with many of the same social conditions as Irishmen in Belfast or Derry. One of my earliest childhood memories is of a day I spent in the local park, when an Orage Walk marched by. I was wearing a Celtic top. I was spat at, I had bottles thrown at me. My father and two brothers were nearly arrested for trying to defend me. Then there was the Protestant who lived up the street who loved to inform us at any given chance that if the Brits ever enforced a program like that of Nazi Germany had against the Jews, against Catholics, then he would be first down to the council office to inform them of our address. Or perhaps a few weeks ago, when I was walking to get some milk for my mother at the spar down the road. I decided to take a short-cut home and was chased by a group of thugs shouting insults at me for… suprise, suprise, being Catholic.

Yes, I didn’t grow with the threat of bombs going off, but never dare believe I grew up without the threat of violence. We were treated as bad in Scotland as ever in Northern Ireland. By the police and the population and the government. Though thank God that life was easier for me growing up than it was for my father and his brothers and sisters.

Re-read your own post - you are very confused or just have not articulated your standpoint well.

Re-initiating armed conflict does no good. It can only escalate. It´s as simple as that.

 

[Jon_Paul]

Re-read your own post - you are very confused or just have not articulated your standpoint well.

Yes, I apologise. I had just woken up and I was quite rambling there. The point of that post there was simply; I am Irish. My other point in the post was that you show contempt towards those of Irish ancestry who take an interest in their heritage, the history of the Irish and the modern issues facing the Irish people today.

Re-initiating armed conflict does no good. It can only escalate. It´s as simple as that.

I didn’t say I want to re-initiate armed conflict. I said I wished the Provos still had their guns because in case you hadn’t noticed, the Loyalists do and Protestant thugs are still treating Irish Catholics as they always have. The Provos were a fine line that protected Irish Catholic communities. I point to the very foundations of the Provos being in their staunch stance that they had a duty to protect Irish Catholic communities from Loyalist Protestant threat; it’s one of the reasons for the IRA split in 69. I also point to the Battle of St Matthews Church in June 1970 when Billy McKee and several of his comrades drove into Short Strand to defend the Catholic community against Loyalist thugs after having already defened another Catholic community from the terrorisation that comes along with the Orange Marches.

The PIRA were dedicated to protection when the corrupt police forces of the British Jingoist state were hand-in-hand with their Loyalist brethren. With the PIRA disarmed and giving full reign to the disgusting anti-Irish politics of Sinn Féin who will defend the Irish Catholics in the north? The British, ha! The RIRA or the CIRA, ha! Not enough man power between them.

Republicans have for years tried to disregard the fact that this is a religious war. At its very core it stems from the Protestant hatred of the Catholic Church and their wish to cleanse the Church from the lands of Ireland. You may disagree, but there it is.