N. Ireland soccer mob beats Catholic man to death

[NPC]

No they’re culpable. The “Troubles” do have a very long history and simply put. England is to blame. That they have done tremendous harm all over the world goes without saying. Everyone these days who cares to learn. Knows the extent of SAS involvement in the “troubles”.

That these “hooligans” just happened to jump in a car and crews into a catholic neighborhood and attack people is what people expect to hear from northern Ireland. We also assume that there will be a reprisal. What this tells everyone is that the government is not in control. So, not British.

I did not say that these people are not culpable or responsible for their actions. I said that it appears that their culpability is diminished - this isn’t my personal belief, but having grown up with hearing day in, day out about “the Troubles” (I am an Irish citizen, as are other contributors to this thread) I have come to believe that, as we move into a new era of peace, violence and hooliganism is disguised as old sectarianism. I’m not saying that these people didn’t deliberately prey on a Catholic neighbourhood, what I’m saying is that I don’t believe religion or politics were their primary motives. These people, first and foremost, wanted to cause trouble. I’d be interested in what my fellow Irishmen (& women!) think of my reading of this.

You say that “England is to blame”. Yes, England may have been the root cause of the Irish situation, and of course British supporters have played their part in the violence. But Ireland and Northern Ireland are in a far far better place than they’ve been for centuries. In fact, the progress that has been made between Britain, Northern Ireland and the Republic in recent years is something that many never believed they’d see in their lifetime. The vast majority - while not forgetting our history - want an absolutely peaceful relationship. Those who perpetuate in any form the violence that the people of all-Ireland have suffered over the years do not represent the will and opinions of the majority - and that goes for Republicans and Unionists.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by (name removed by moderator)
Been Irish does not mean been Catholic and never did and never should - simple as that.

I just hope and pray that the Irish people stick to their Catholic roots. I hope that young come back to see the fullness of the faith of their ancestors.

To me being Irish means being Catholic and they can’t be separated.

They didn’t go into any neighborhood but chose a Catholic one so what their intentions were are questionable.

 

[bobzills]

The vast majority - while not forgetting our history - want an absolutely peaceful relationship. .

Then why are they allowing these provocative parades by Orangemen near the Catholic areas?
What is the purpose of these parades except to provoke anger and hostility?

 

[NPC]

Then why are they allowing these provocative parades by Orangemen near the Catholic areas?
What is the purpose of these parades except to provoke anger and hostility?

You seem to think that all the problems with the parades are down to Protestants (or Orangemen). There are two sides to every story, and the other side in this case is the Nationalists who obviously do not support the Organgemen, yet they feel the need to line the parade routes in order to taunt and intimidate the marchers.

The purpose of the parades is to commemorate victories of King William III of Organge in the 1680 - and particularly his victory at the Battle of the Boyne. I am no supporter of the Orangemen and their commemoration of the Boyne - it was a terribly bloody battle - but I defend their right to be able to march from their Orange Hall to their local church (which is normally what determines the route of the parade). Incidentally, there are Orange marches in the Republic - in the border counties - and these parades proceed without hostility from either side. If the Catholics in the North do not support the parade why don’t they keep away - I mean why take part in something that you have no interest in, except if your aim is to perpetuate the violence of bygone days? Needless to say, if the aim of an Orangeman is to cause trouble then he should be prevented from marching. That said, the vast majority of parades pass by peacefully.

 

[KC91]

A martyr who died for his faith.

 

[KC91]

Jhakcarnelian what is wrong about Catholicism being associated with a national identity? Sometimes it is effective and leads to good government, as in the cases of Spain and Portugal in the past.

 

[Jon_Paul]

irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0527/breaking6.htm

Threat to murdered man’s son

The son of a Catholic man beaten to death by a sectarian mob has been threatened by loyalists.

Police informed the grieving man last night that a threat had been made against him, according to security sources in Northern Ireland.

The warning came just 48 hours after his father, 49-year-old Kevin McDaid, was brutally murdered just yards from the family home in Coleraine, Co Derry.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by (name removed by moderator)
But without been rude you are not Irish and nor do you have a particularly nuanced understanding of Ireland. If Irishness was defined by been Catholic it would be deeply worrying. A Catholic (or indeed Christians in general) should place their faith in God above their nationality and not conflate the two.

Granted I don’t live in Ireland. Does a person who is of Jewish nationality often define themselves as Jewish in faith? So what. The Irish have fought long and hard for their Catholic faith and I have no problem in defining all good Irishmen as Catholic.

 

[ora_pro_nobis]

Granted I don’t live in Ireland. Does a person who is of Jewish nationality often define themselves as Jewish in faith? So what. The Irish have fought long and hard for their Catholic faith and I have no problem in defining all good Irishmen as Catholic.

First, there is no such thing as a Jewish nationality.

Second, there are plenty of good Irish men (and women) who are not Catholic. Ireland has a much more diverse population than you realise. Irish does not automatically equal Catholic. Really.

 

[Jon_Paul]

First, there is no such thing as a Jewish nationality.

Try tell that to the Jews. You don’t need borders to be a nation, and they have their borders regardless.

Second, there are plenty of good Irish men (and women) who are not Catholic. Ireland has a much more diverse population than you realise. Irish does not automatically equal Catholic. Really.

While it is true that there are many fine Protestant Irish men and women, you cannot deny the indisputable fact that the Irish nation and identity was heavily influenced and defined by the Catholic Church - especially after the Reformation, when it is quite appropriate to speak of a modern Irish identity.

The Old English (Catholics) and Gaels (Catholic) were the foundations of the modern Irish identity, and their ‘union’ as it were, was a result of the presence of a foreign, Protestant government.

But, Protestant Irish have been in Ireland for five centuries (?) and they have heavily assimilated-into and influenced the Irish nation - politically, economically, culturally - that it’s a bit hard to deny their inherent Irishness.

 

[KC91]

But De Valera, Collins and Adams were all Catholics.

Whether we like it or not, of all religions if one has to pick a state religion, Catholicism is the best choice as historically it has always worked efficiently hand in hand with robust government. So even if a few minor insignificant facts get in the way, they do not stand up against the common good and interest.

 

[KC91]

There is a difference between a statement for public consumption and hard realities. The Irish Republic granted special status to the Catholic Church was unfortunately ended some years back.

 

[KC91]

But one can guarantee religious freedom but still have Catholicism as the state religion or at least the preferred religion.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

That doesn’t tell us much. Considering, canada aside, most english colonies wanted desperately to break with jolly old england.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

But one can guarantee religious freedom but still have Catholicism as the state religion or at least the preferred religion.

I like the Idea of morality in government. But you see, even in a democracy. Which I feel is the best form of government. An over riding majority can oppress a minority at the ballot box. The government has to be structured in such a way that this doesn’t happen. And that, my friend, is hard to do.

Since Jharek and others want to use history. Spain and portugal are both fine examples of how badly that can turn out. I think also france had some huguenots that fled persecution and landed in Ireland of all places. The taliban could be another example. Religous tolerance of one from or another must be enforced. Just like when someone wishes to leave the Church. Were sorry to see them make this choice. But they have free will for a reason.

 

[chosen_people]

First, there is no such thing as a Jewish nationality.

The Jewish people, the Tanach, over three thousand years of history and our DNA all beg to differ.

 

[tomarin]

Let’s also not forget that William Butler Yeats, a Protestant*, was a great Irish patriot.

*that is, he was raised a Protestant although his religious beliefs as an adult were eccentric and best described as “spiritualist”.

 

[KC91]

But since we are talking of history, in what way did Spain and Portugal turn out badly? When they were ruled by Franco and Salazar, they were officially Catholic countries, but yet still had religious freedom.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Yeah I know. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. Sorry!

As for separation of church and state. It’s not actually in the constitution. Something like it appears in the federalist papers though.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by ora_pro_nobis
First, there is no such thing as a Jewish nationality.

Second, there are plenty of good Irish men (and women) who are not Catholic. Ireland has a much more diverse population than you realise. Irish does not automatically equal Catholic. Really.

I understand why you are stating that but many would disagree. Being Jewish doesn’t have to do with race or nationality is the strictest sense, and yes, if a Jewish mother has a baby, it is automatically Jewish. The child is automatically considered to be of Jewish faith whether the child practices or not.

Yet throughout history do we not believe that in most nations, tribes produced children from various backgrounds but I am sure they are still considered members of that tribes background. In Ireland when the Danes invaded and produced children, they didn’t say, well now we are of Danish and Irish nationality. No they still identified with being Irish.

The Irish have always been Catholic and now to try and rewrite history and say, no that is not true - to me, is a bunch of garbage.