Name 3 reasons you are not Catholic (yet).

[LilyM]

*]I have encountered complete indifference, for the most part, to the questing of a learner-Catholic, to the difficulties an older would-be convert is experiencing.

(Edited by Moderator)

Carol - grace and peace, and God be with you on your journey, wherever it leads you.

And so, dear friends, I am having to reconsider my options. I am absolutely clear in my own mind that for the most part, this Forum is antithetical to Christian spirituality, Christian life, and our responsibility as Christians. The Forum triumphs in two things: creating a safe haven for very odd people; and creating a place for discussion of some very odd questions about sex after menopause, nipple-pinching in the garden where there is no intercourse immediately following, swallowing toothpaste before Mass, inter alia.

Odd? Certainly, some of the posters and thread topics could be so described. There are thousands upon thousands of threads and posters here. The majority of them are genuinely informative and deal with topics of a lot more substance than those you’ve mentioned.

I find it interesting that you call these fora unChristian. Christ was not scared to call sin sin, call hypocrites hypocrites, whip the moneychangers out of the temple or even, as in John 6, let large numbers of people walk away who didn’t understand or accept his ‘hard’ teachings. So it’s a possibility, and please don’t take this as a criticism, that it’s your views of Christianity that need changing.

If what I have seen here is the face of Catholicism in our time, it is not something I would wish to be part of.

Blessings

Jabulani!

What you see here are people who know what they believe, are passionate about it and prepared to defend it to extraordinary lengths. With all respect to your opinions, they mirror the early Christian martyrs of Rome in those respects.

 

[Greg27]

One year ago, I began a spiritual journey (sannyasi in Hindi) as an adult. I decided that rather than take on all the beliefs and ideals - and divinities - of other religions, I would concentrate on the faith into which I was born - Christianity.

Although I am a baptised Canadian Baptist (note Canadian - nothing to do with American), I decided I would make my journey within the paradigm of the Catholic Church. Currently I attend mass 3 times a week, RCIA, retreats and workshops, church twice on Sunday. I have been given a spiritual director non pareil. My closest working colleague of 30 years is a loving Jesuit of international eminence. My retreat spiritual director is a greatly loved retired Bishop.

I was doing OK with my SDs, my reading, my listening, my being with Christ, and in Christ. He had been with me throughout a difficult career around the world, and protected, guided and comforted me in many hard conditions.

And then I hit this Forum. Suddenly it was all change. What had been a quiet relationship with Our Lord was suddenly covered over by the trauma of insulting posts following innocent queries on my part. (It took me a few weeks to learn the nature of many of the posters on this Forum.) My SD was angry, and advised me immediately to leave the Forum. I disobeyed (as usual) and did not: I preferred to go through the trauma, and see where I ended up.

Where I have ended up at the moment is strung out between the absolute beliefs and fundamentalist approach (for the most part) of posters on this Forum, and the loving, faith-respectful and more liberal focus - always trained on the work of a Christian, the responsibilities of a Christian in our daily lives - of my SD and congregants in my Catholic Church.

And so I am having to reconsider my commitment to enter the Catholic Church. On this Forum:

• I have been introduced to a side of the Christian faith far removed from the life and mores of a Christian, one that I could never have imagined, one that I have never seen in my life as a Christian.
• I have been urged again and again not just to consider doctrine/dogma/belief/policy/scripture/Magisterium etc etc, but to recognise and ‘accept’ with ‘humility and grace’, absolute belief in the correctness of the Catholic faith and not to question absolute truth.
• I have encountered complete indifference, for the most part, to the questing of a learner-Catholic, to the difficulties an older would-be convert is experiencing.
  (Edited by Moderator)

There have been others who have been incredibly supportive, many of them people who have had similar or parallel experiences. They have stuck it out, and gave me the hand of friendship. To them I am grateful.

And so, dear friends, I am having to reconsider my options. I am absolutely clear in my own mind that for the most part, this Forum is antithetical to Christian spirituality, Christian life, and our responsibility as Christians. The Forum triumphs in two things: creating a safe haven for very odd people; and creating a place for discussion of some very odd questions about sex after menopause, nipple-pinching in the garden where there is no intercourse immediately following, swallowing toothpaste before Mass, inter alia.

If what I have seen here is the face of Catholicism in our time, it is not something I would wish to be part of.

Blessings

Jabulani!

In my own travels I’ve encountered people like this in every religion; you will also meet Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and also Christians (from any denomination) who will tell you only they have the total truth and only they will be in heaven. It is true the same spirit exists in some Catholics, and it can seem like it is either swallow the dogmas or else you are going to hell.

However, it is wrong to say that all 1.2 billion Catholics think the same. There is a lot of depth and individual variety in the church, and you should look at that. Even when the ‘magesterium’ is concerned that does not mean Catholics are blindly obedient and do not think about what they are taught. If the Church was like this, I would certainly have not joined it.

 

[Bennie_P]

I’d been out of the church for about 34 years and even I knew better than that when a big burly a-C guy laid that garbage on me.

Great conversion story:thumbsup:

 

[Mickey]

Maybe it just me but I think it’s quite a big jump from wondering about it to having already read their hearts.

Since this type of “wondering” shows a profound lack of charity, perhaps it should be kept to oneself.

 

[MariaG]

And so, dear friends, I am having to reconsider my options. I am absolutely clear in my own mind that for the most part, this Forum is antithetical to Christian spirituality, Christian life, and our responsibility as Christians. The Forum triumphs in two things: creating a safe haven for very odd people; and creating a place for discussion of some very odd questions about sex after menopause, nipple-pinching in the garden where there is no intercourse immediately following, swallowing toothpaste before Mass, inter alia.

If what I have seen here is the face of Catholicism in our time, it is not something I would wish to be part of.

Blessings

Jabulani!

If this has been the general tone of your posts, I am not surprised you have seen a lack of Christian Charity and that this site has not built your spirituality. Calling the people odd who have chosen this site and completely disagree with that assessment, is not the easiest way to win over friends. Even if your assessment were true, which I do not believe it is, these kinds of words will endear you to few and will tend to bring down the level of charity a person recieves.

Sadly, even though as Christians, we should respond to criticism and as well as the daily accusations of not being Christians at all, with love and charity, this does not always happen. And it is also unfortunate when people do not choose to remove themselves from the forums for a time when they find themselves becoming snippy and defensive over the same questions. They forget that while they may have answered the same question over and over, it is the person’s first time asking it. While one can easily do a search, many people, including myself, prefer to get into a dialogue with people on issues instead of read other people’s dialogue.

There are all levels of Christian maturity on these forums, as well as some who pose as Catholics for a time trying to make Catholic Christians look bad. (I think we can do that very well on our own, but apparently some are not satisfied with human sin and foibles but wish to help that along.)

Respectfully, if you find it so antithical of Christian spirituality, you should probably not come anymore.

Conversely, you could also let your light of Christ shine and show people how a mature Christian responds to criticism, and gently correct those who have yet to learn how to shine the love of Christ while still stating the truth of Christ.

But either way, I pray that you keep you eyes on Christ and do not judge His Church by the sinning members who belong to it, but rather the truth that the Holy Spirit has led His church to.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[QuicumqueVult]

Well, now I feel right at home. I am not yet a Catholic. I’m a really odd bird as well.

I think of CAF as like a condensed Oxford English Dictionary. It ain’t the whole thing but it’s exceedingly accurate. And to be sufficiently useful, it will have a few definitions which, though part of the received lexicographical deposit, we wish personally weren’t part of our language. But in the end, wouldn’t you rather have the magisterial OED than the Wikipedia?

 

[Contarini]

Sorry, but I think CAF is much more like Wikipedia. I can’t see that it is in the least like the OED. It has no official status whatsoever. In fact, I don’t think it’s as authoritative as Wikipedia, which at least represents a consensus of very different people.

The CAF forums represent one particular faction and flavor of Catholicism, with a heavy U.S. slant. They are in no way representative of Catholicism as a whole.

Edwin

Well, now I feel right at home. I am not yet a Catholic. I’m a really odd bird as well.

I think of CAF as like a condensed Oxford English Dictionary. It ain’t the whole thing but it’s exceedingly accurate. And to be sufficiently useful, it will have a few definitions which, though part of the received lexicographical deposit, we wish personally weren’t part of our language. But in the end, wouldn’t you rather have the magisterial OED than the Wikipedia?

 

[Contarini]

Yeah, and most Catholics believed that the earth was flat for 1600 years too.
.

Not that this is relevant, but as a matter of fact they didn’t. Daniel Boorstin is wrong here. Read Jeffrey Burton Russell, The Myth of a Flat Earth.

Edwin

 

[lak611]

Sorry, but I think CAF is much more like Wikipedia. I can’t see that it is in the least like the OED. It has no official status whatsoever. In fact, I don’t think it’s as authoritative as Wikipedia, which at least represents a consensus of very different people.

The CAF forums represent one particular faction and flavor of Catholicism, with a heavy U.S. slant. They are in no way representative of Catholicism as a whole.

Edwin

Do you notice any differences in the posts by Canadian, Australian, English or Irish posters?

 

[Contarini]

Yes, I do. Of course these forums attract similarly minded people from all over the world, but generally speaking the posters from other parts of the English-speaking world are not quite in sync with the ideology here. Look at Jack_Hawkins or Gottle of Geer (English), for instance, or david_arlette (Australian, though admittedly he is not yet Catholic, or else very recently Catholic).

Edwin

Do you notice any differences in the posts by Canadian, Australian, English or Irish posters?

 

[QuicumqueVult]

Dear Contariini,

Actually, StandFirm, the conservative ECUSAn equivalent to CAF, is more like Wikipedia. All sensus fidelium, no collegium episoporum, no vox petrus. You’re quite right. In the Anglican world, all there is really is ‘every voice is equally valid’, therefore no voice in particular. So believe or say anything you like. That’s the ‘beauty’ of of Anglicanism.

CAF is OED because its thinking tends to be guided by principles and propositions, dogma and doctrine, orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Like the lexicographical fellows and scholars who manage the OED project, we have moderators and apologists who appeal to an objective source of truth apostolic tradition as taught and maintained by the (Roman) Church’s Magisterium.

I just reviewed the forum categories. You’ve got faith, morals, social justice (sic, teaching is better as justice is largely misunderstood these days and iusticia cum dikaiosune cum ‘justice as cardinal virtue’ are ignored) , ecumenics, liturgics, the lot.

That’s comprehensive. Surely you can find a voice amidst all those voices, albeit voices largely shaped by well-formed intellects and consciences. I speak from envy. How many Anglicans do you know who could even follow my train of thought just now? I say that with some degree of confidence because am I one.

 

[QuicumqueVult]

I think my argument, such as that rant was, is missing a premise.

Anglicanism has no magisterium. Therefore, an Anglican forum like StandFirm is ipso facto like Wikipedia: a public domain project with nothing any deeper than the sentiments expressed. Oh, they’ll appeal to Scripture, even a few Councils and Fathers. But in the end, nothing real connects it all. In Anglicanism, it’s opinion all the way down. Opinion is subjective truth. CAF, like the Catholic Church, understands that revealed truth is both objectively defined and subjectively knowable. And not just in the forms of a Book or a Creed.

To used Newman’s insight, only Catholicism is a realised Christianity, and only it is a fitting idea of what Christ had in mind. All else is appeals to antiquity or accommodation to the liberalisms and rationalisms (and Socinianisms) and – these days – existentialisms of the day. When he realised that he went to Rome.

And I just realised I went egregiously off-thread. Maybe we need a new ‘Why be anglican?’ thread. My apologies.

 

[paarsurrey]

1. Truth cannot change. In Catholicism, the authority of the magisterium can change truth for the believers.
2. Catholicism has changed traditions vastly since the time of Christ. The Roman Catholic church is not an authority on tradition.
3. I was a cradle Catholic and I left the church, I will never return.

Hi
What is your religion now?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[lak611]

1. Truth cannot change. In Catholicism, the authority of the magisterium can change truth for the believers.
2. Catholicism has changed traditions vastly since the time of Christ. The Roman Catholic church is not an authority on tradition.
3. I was a cradle Catholic and I left the church, I will never return.

Hi
What is your religion now?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

He cannot answer. He has been banned from the fora.

 

[Contarini]

Dear Contariini,

Actually, StandFirm, the conservative ECUSAn equivalent to CAF, is more like Wikipedia. All sensus fidelium, no collegium episoporum, no vox petrus. You’re quite right. In the Anglican world, all there is really is ‘every voice is equally valid’, therefore no voice in particular. So believe or say anything you like. That’s the ‘beauty’ of of Anglicanism.

CAF is OED because its thinking tends to be guided by principles and propositions, dogma and doctrine, orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Like the lexicographical fellows and scholars who manage the OED project, we have moderators and apologists who appeal to an objective source of truth apostolic tradition as taught and maintained by the (Roman) Church’s Magisterium.

I just reviewed the forum categories. You’ve got faith, morals, social justice (sic, teaching is better as justice is largely misunderstood these days and iusticia cum dikaiosune cum ‘justice as cardinal virtue’ are ignored) , ecumenics, liturgics, the lot.

That’s comprehensive. Surely you can find a voice amidst all those voices, albeit voices largely shaped by well-formed intellects and consciences. I speak from envy. How many Anglicans do you know who could even follow my train of thought just now? I say that with some degree of confidence because am I one.

Well, you mustn’t know as many smart Anglicans as I do. . . .

I still don’t buy the argument. CAF is not and does not claim to be a repository of scholarship. It is a populist, popular enterprise, much like wikipedia. And like wikipedia, it’s very entertaining and often informative. The subject matter covered has nothing to do with the level of expertise involved, by the way.

Catholic scholars typically speak very differently to the folks on this forum. The people on this forum are usually either puzzled or angered by what Catholic scholars say. They even find the Pope shocking from time to time (the current Pope being, by the way, one of the finest Catholic scholars out there).CAF is very much like StandFirm.

Edwin

​

 

[Publisher]

One reason…read the “Burning of the Heretic” thread…good reason for me.

 

[Ahimsa]

CAF is very much like StandFirm.

Edwin​

Are there other Catholic web-sources you would recommend?

 

[Bennie_P]

Are there other Catholic web-sources you would recommend?

Here is the very Best Catholic Web site.

http://www.vatican.va/img_new_phome/phome_new_en_02.jpg

 

[guanophore]

I know a new convert who had the same frustration you had. All I can say is pray to God to grant you patience. The wait is worth it because in the end,

This is a VERY BAD idea. One should NEVER pray for patience! First of all, patience is a fruit that grows, not a 'gift". Furthermore, anytime someone prays for patience, God seems more than happy to see this fruit developed, and will immediately provide an abundance of frustrating situations to try what little there is in order to make it grow. I think that is very bad advice.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is a VERY BAD idea. One should NEVER pray for patience! First of all, patience is a fruit that grows, not a 'gift". Furthermore, anytime someone prays for patience, God seems more than happy to see this fruit developed, and will immediately provide an abundance of frustrating situations to try what little there is in order to make it grow. I think that is very bad advice.

Patience is a virtue one of the Twelve Fruits of the Holy Spirit. It’s not a bad advise.