S
SuzieB
Guest
Either way would work. I would make an appointment just because priest are so busy, and when you went you would be sure you would get to see him.
- Status
S
smolderingwick
Guest
I don"t have 3 reasons why i am not Catholic but i have 3 reasons why i dislike the Catholic “Church” (and yet am still Catholic).
- A lot of Catholics i know are narrow-minded and see things only in black or white…
- A lot of Catholics are cold and uncaring an don’t practice what they preach.
- The devil is in the Church (Masonry, etc…).
S
smolderingwick
Guest
If i had read this post a month ago, i would have answered by going into a big thing about how you are wrong about this or that… Now, i just, well, i don’t fight those who dispute with the Chruch anymore…
I can’t stand the hypocrites i find in the Church… Yes, I know i am one of them… (everyone is a hypocrite since we are all sinners) but you know, there are some things that are basic to being a Christian… and i don’t find much of that basic stuff in the Church these days…
I still love the teachings of the Church on the sanctity of human life… I love the Real Presence… I love going to Confession with certain priests (i’ve found a certain percentage who are good in Confession). I love Mass. But everything else… forget it…
I am a bitter Catholic who, well, i don’t understand your arguments, but i do understand your hesitancy to come back… I left for a long time, came back, and well, the journey has been a little Heaven, a little Purgatory and a whole lot of Hell… (extremely long story…) but i think/feel that Catholics, in general, just don’t like people like me who “think outside the box” or what have you…
Look at some of the posts here and how people respond. If someone says something that remotely smells of “un-Catholic-ness”, well, he/she gets it…
God is love… I’m sorry, but i don’t find much real love among Catholics… I could tell you story after story… but what’s the point?
I guess it goes back to that passage about how the road to eternal life is narrow and there are few who find it…
You have to really be committed to Jesus and love him with all your heart. Just going to church, by itself, isn’t going to do it… though it certainly helps…I guess if you hang aroiund a barber shop, you will eventually get a haircut…
Anyway, i do know some Catholics who are the exception and i appreciate them… but there are so many who just… well, they just aren’t very Christ-like… in important ways… basic ways…
Anyway, i know i am sounding judgmental, but this is where i am at… I’m sorry if i am lapsing into un-Catholic-ness…
Maybe i should tell some of those stories… some day… but right now, i am just not in the mood for people justifying what the opposition has done to me… I may be in the mood tomorrow, but i doubt it…
God bless you.
Why do you come to these forums, if i may ask??
K
kujo313
Guest
OK, I have to reply to this one. I tried to stay out of this because even if a part of your religion is proven false, you’re just going to explain it away JUST as that Puerto Rican guy who claims he’s Jesus.
I’ll answer with Scripture:
Matthew 10:37
“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”
You’ll probably answer with pope so-and-so or saint so-and-so which would contradict what Jesus said but who’s to argue with a saint or pope?
Matthew 12:48-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21
"But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
THAT, my brother, means that if your bioligical mother does the will of God, then SHE’S Jesus’ mother! But then again, a pope or saint contradicted this, too.
Matthew 19:4-6; (Mark 10:7)
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Ever hear of the Bride of Christ? It’s His Church. But, then again, even though Mary was hardly even mentioned from Acts to Jude, some pope or saint contradicted Jesus, too.
Luke 14:26
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Accept Mary as your “Mother”? Well, I’m not going to contradict Jesus.
Galatians 4:26-27; Isaiah 54:1
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:
“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
Huh? Jerusalem above is mother of us all? Paul interpreted Scripture here. He don’t mean Mary. Doesn’t even mention her.
Jesus did not come to contradict Scripture or the prophets but to FULFILL it. The Old Testament did not say to lift up the virgin to any higher plane. No mention from the writings of the disciples that they called her “mother”, either.
(But you’ll say that ‘some saint was a disciple of an aposltle of Jesus so they’re probably quoting what they heard.’ That cannot be proven at all.)
Mark 7:6-9 Applies to your denomination:
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
Code:
‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
L
LilyM
Guest
Wrong - we’d answer with the very simple and obvious fact that we DON’T love Mary more than we love Jesus or the Father. If we did, we’d offer the Mass to her and believe that it was her death that saved us and not Christ’s. We’d adore the Eucharist claiming it was HER body and blood, not Christ’s.
Quite the contrary, we love Mary precisely BECAUSE of she is an unerring guide to Jesus, with her intimate relationship with Jesus and knowledge of him. Same with the saints - we look to them as examples because they did the will of God, the will of Jesus, and imitated him, so closely.
Again, no Popes or Saints - just the obvious fact that Mary did the will of the Father, and certainly did it as perfectly as any recorded person in the Bible apart from Jesus himself, and better than my own biological mother.
Great though everyone is who does the will of God, Mary took on the greatest task any mere mortal has been given, in being entrusted to physically bear, protect, raise and nurture the Second Person of the Trinity, the Word made Flesh, for twenty-some years!
P
pedja
Guest
I dont think Mary took on the greatest task any mortal has been given. What about Noah who survived the flood? What about the task given to Moses to free Israel? What about Paul who suffered so much for the name of Christ?
Mary had the honor to be the biological mother of Jesus, yes that was great and we should respect that, no question about it. But that was all. What you have done is made a cult out of her person.
L
LilyM
Guest
None of them bore the living God made flesh within their bodies for nine months and then lived with him day and night and raised him for twenty-odd years. Do you think anyone could do that without it leaving the profoundest mark on their soul and character even if they were ordinary beforehand?
Jesus was not just an ordinary biological human being - not for one instant from the moment of his conception. We never treat him as such. Why should we then treat the mother who bore and raised this extraordinary, divine being as if she were an ordinary mother? It just doesn’t compute and isn’t consistent.
Mary’s IS the greatest task ever given to a human being - to be the mother of the God of us all. Noah built a boat and transported his family and animals in it, true. Many built boats and transported animals in them before his time, many have done as much since. Paul preached and wrote, which is no more than many a missionary did before and after his time.
Mary is unique, without parallel. Never before and never again will anyone do what she did - bear God himself within them.
P
pedja
Guest
I have no problem with that. Surely it left a mark on her soul but it still doesnt make her extra-special. She was still a human being, a sinner, which means she was not perfect, she still needed Christ to die for her. She could feel honored that God chose her but God did it not because Mary was any more or less special then some other people. Jesus`s birth did not depend on Mary!
I agree with the first part, that Jesus was no ordinary human being, but how can you treat Mary the same way you treat the Creator of the universe? THIS is very inconsistent, to treat the Creator and his creation in the same way. ALL honor should belong to God and God only.
It is impossible for you to say that. What Noah had to endure lasted for hudreds of years while Mary`s task was limited to how many, maybe the first 12-15 years or so? And it is not only about Noah, go through the Bible and see how many people were chosen for special tasks which were quite more painful, stressful, responsible etc. than the task given to Mary. The point is that God was picking and chosing people and that He had plans with each one of them.
I agree with that.
M
Mary3
Guest
Hello, Pedja,
I find that Mary is a huge stumbling block for many non-Catholics, and I understand. She was to me at one point, too. I don’t know a single person who was persuaded solely by logic, reason or the Bible to understand what Catholics see in Mary. I’m starting to believe that a Catholic understanding of Mary is only possible as a grace from God.
Here’s my suggestion. You strike me as someone who loves the Lord a great deal. As a disciple of Jesus, you would never want to disobey or offend Him in any way. Hence, you are hesitant to give Mary an inappropriate role. Good. But I would ask you to do one thing. Check with Jesus Himself about how He views Mary. Please ask Him to show you how He feels about her. Ask Him in prayer every day, and give Him a few days to answer you. I promise He will.
And here’s something to ponder as you pray and wait for His answer. Please re-read slowly and carefully Exodus chapters 25 through 40. These are the stories of the building of the original tent of meeting and the ark of the covenant. Notice all the details in the instructions, down to the specific artisans who would do the work, the colors of the fabrics, the sources of the woods, etc. Speak to Jesus about all these things, and ask Him to show you why it mattered so much. Why was God so specific about the minute details of this dwelling?
If God cared so much about the details of a box that would contain His words written by Him on stone tablets, how careful might He have been in selecting the only human being to ever contain God Himself in flesh and blood?
I wish you a fruitful time of prayer with our Lord.
L
LilyM
Guest
A human being yes, a sinner - what sin is she ever recorded as committing? And of course having a unique event happen to you makes you unique as well - having the GREATEST EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY happen to you and because of you makes all those involved - including Mary - THE GREATEST PEOPLE IN HISTORY!!!
And OF COURSE Jesus’ birth depended on her, the salvation of humankind *had *to come about partially through her willing ‘yes’ to God, just as our fall came through Eve’s willing ‘yes’ to Satan. The angel waited for her word - ‘let it be done to me’. If it was imposed on her she wouldn’t need to say ‘let it be’. Who else dares say ‘let it be’? (hint … ‘let there be light’
)If all honour belongs to God alone then why do you honour your church leaders, your parents, your spouse, your family members, your school teachers, your favourite sports heros or celebrities or anyone else? HIGHEST honour belongs to God, and all WORSHIP. Not ALL honour.
And like I said, we don’t offer Masses in Mary’s name, we don’t say the Eucharist is her body and blood, or that her death or Assumption saves us. We don’t baptise in her name, forgive sins in her name, or marry people and say ‘what Mary has joined let not man put asunder’. We worship God alone, as is right. We highly honour Mary out of respect to Jesus, who honoured her more than we are ever able to.
Oh Lord! Noah’s task was limited to seven people - his own family. Mary’s task extended to ALL MANKIND past present and future - since she bore and raised the saviour of all mankind, past present and future! It lasted all of Christ’s life, to Calvary (at which she was present and shared more intensely than any other human in Christ’s sufferings) and for the remainder of her own life afterwards, since she supported John in his ministry as an Apostle.
She is unique and uniquely* great* among human beings and among servants of God. The angel knew it, and called her highly favoured and full of grace even before she said yes. Do you think he knew she would say yes? Of course he didn’t, he was a humble and not omniscient messenger of God!
Elizabeth knew it, the woman who praised her in the Gospel (rightly, though for the wrong reason, for her physical motherhood rather than her obedience and superexcellent service of God) knew it too.
Do you treat her as such though? As she deserves to be treated? Do you even pray the Hail Mary which uses the exact words Elizabeth and the angel used? You grudge her even that much.
K
kujo313
Guest
EXACTLY the point ! You defend Mary so much! “Mother of Our Lord”, “Mother of God”, “Do you even pray the Hail Mary”.A human being yes, a sinner - what sin is she ever recorded as committing? And of course having a unique event happen to you makes you unique as well - having the GREATEST EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY happen to you and because of you makes all those involved - including Mary - THE GREATEST PEOPLE IN HISTORY!!!
And OF COURSE Jesus’ birth depended on her, the salvation of humankind *had *to come about partially through her willing ‘yes’ to God, just as our fall came through Eve’s willing ‘yes’ to Satan. The angel waited for her word - ‘let it be done to me’. If it was imposed on her she wouldn’t need to say ‘let it be’. Who else dares say ‘let it be’? (hint … ‘let there be light’
If all honour belongs to God alone then why do you honour your church leaders, your parents, your spouse, your family members, your school teachers, your favourite sports heros or celebrities or anyone else? HIGHEST honour belongs to God, and all WORSHIP. Not ALL honour.
And like I said, we don’t offer Masses in Mary’s name, we don’t say the Eucharist is her body and blood, or that her death or Assumption saves us. We don’t baptise in her name, forgive sins in her name, or marry people and say ‘what Mary has joined let not man put asunder’. We worship God alone, as is right. We highly honour Mary out of respect to Jesus, who honoured her more than we are ever able to.
Oh Lord! Noah’s task was limited to seven people - his own family. Mary’s task extended to ALL MANKIND past present and future - since she bore and raised the saviour of all mankind, past present and future! It lasted all of Christ’s life, to Calvary (at which she was present and shared more intensely than any other human in Christ’s sufferings) and for the remainder of her own life afterwards, since she supported John in his ministry as an Apostle.
She is unique and uniquely* great* among human beings and among servants of God. The angel knew it, and called her highly favoured and full of grace even before she said yes. Do you think he knew she would say yes? Of course he didn’t, he was a humble and not omniscient messenger of God!
Elizabeth knew it, the woman who praised her in the Gospel (rightly, though for the wrong reason, for her physical motherhood rather than her obedience and superexcellent service of God) knew it too.
Do you treat her as such though? As she deserves to be treated? Do you even pray the Hail Mary which uses the exact words Elizabeth and the angel used? You grudge her even that much.
The words that Jesus used in His prayers didn’t even include Mary. Note what you call the “Lord’s Prayer”. No Mary. How about our Lord’s Prayer in John 17? Nope. Not there, either.
Yet, it’s the catholic religion and denomination that not only makes statues of Mary but carries it around in public celebrations and protests (as in Latin America). It’s the catholic religion and denomination that would also carry paintings of Mary. it’s the catholic religion and denomination that would wear scapulars and pray roseries because Mary said so.
it’s also the catholic religion and denomination who’s Pope John Paul II gave honor to when he survived an assasain’s bullet. It was him who had written on his outfits an honor to Mary. It was him who had on his desk a decree (order) saying that Mary is a co-Mediatrix to Jesus (pope almost bowing to the wantings of MILLIONS of people, not the Will of God).
It was a pope who said that Mary did not die.
It’s even at the top of this very web page, the way you look at Jesus and Mary: Jesus is a helpless human baby and has to be taken care of completely by Mary.
You, personally, may not wear a scapular or pray a rosary (how many times is Mary referred to?), but countless millions are treating her as some kind of goddess.
Don’t talk about some Protestant denominations going off the deep end. Trust me, I don’t belong to them. The RCC is off, too. That’s why I don’t belong to them, either.
L
LilyM
Guest
I defend her only in proportion to the attacks on here - that she was no-one special, did nothing special, is on the same level as any other minor character in the Bible, that God could and would have chosen anyone.
When the reality is he created her from the ground up knowing that she would be his mother and certainly making her as fit as possible for the role. And that she was a unique person.
And there are plenty of depictions of Jesus with Mary both as adults - for example images of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts, and the Stations of the Cross depict them so. Those are in every single church, depictions of an Infant Jesus aren’t.
By the way, what is wrong with reminding ourselves of the fact that there WERE years of Jesus’ life where he, the second person of the Trinity, WAS in fact a helpless baby and entirely dependent on Mary and the others around him such as Joseph?? He chose to be so, precisely to teach people like you that there is nothing shameful about placing trust and confidence in Mary as he did.
Just as he chose to be poor to show us that there is nothing shameful in poverty either.
K
kujo313
Guest
He didn’t come as a baby to show me that it’s ok to put my trust and confidence in Mary. Jesus came into this world the same way I did, as a baby, to show me the Way to God… His Way.
On the way, He shows all of us that if we love our mother or father more than Him, we’re not worthy of Him. He told us, through His Word, that we’re to leave our mother and father and follow Him. He also said that if we do the Will of God, then we can call ourselves His brother and His mother!
When somebody mentioned Mary, in Luke, Jesus used the word “rather” or “instead of that”. Mary heard and obeyed. John heard and obeyed. Paul heard and obeyed.
Now, if you want to open a gift given to you and play around with and admire the wrapping paper, go for it. The person who gave you the gift did not intend you to pay attention to the wrapping paper or the box but of the gift, itself.
You go ahead and admire Mary and she may point you to Jesus. I’LL go to Jesus, Himself as He said to do.
By the way, the subject of the picture at the top of this page is NOT: Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It’s: Mary, the mother: the focus of the RCC.
I’d rather focus only on the King.
S
smolderingwick
Guest
We only defend Mary when someone attacks her (or our devotion to her).
There’s an interesting story of a priest you should read about - Father Shiere (spelling??). That story changed my views of the Catholic focus on Mary when i was struggling to come back to the Church years ago… I had been raised CAtholic but had gone away, got “protestantized”, etc… so i struggled as you seem to be… to understand why the focus on Mary.
Also, to me, it comes down to this simple thing: If Mary was good enough for Jesus, she is good enough 4 me.
K
kujo313
Guest
“struggled”? I prefer what Jesus said about her when He said, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” and “Whosoever does the Will of My Father ARE my brothers and my mother.”
The exact words of our Savior trumps all others.
S
smolderingwick
Guest
Yes, but you focus on only the scriptures you want to focus on.
R
ribozyme
Guest
- Richard Lynn (for showing that race differences in intelligence exists and I believe this is calamity that is inconsistent with a benevolent God. Why didn’t God make us equal in that respect?)
- Robert Shapiro (for allowing me to appreciate the value of skeptcism)
- Gerald Joyce (for showing that the all flora and fuana are a product of the iterative dystelological process of Darwinian evolution)
B
Benedictus
Guest
I’m actually a Catholic who is on the way out of the Church, but here are my reasons:
- There is no evidence that God exists.
- There is little reason to believe that God exists.
- Religion seems to cause more harm than good.
L
LilyM
Guest
Yet you conveniently ignore that Mary was an integral part of his way. He worked his first miracle at her request, and almost his last thoughts on the Cross were of her welfare when he put her into the care of John. And it is planned so from the beginning, when God promises Eve to defeat the serpent through the enmity of BOTH the woman AND her seed. BOTH Mary AND Jesus. There isn’t any sort of competition between them, but complementarity.
Of course I don’t love Mary MORE than I love Jesus, or even the same as Jesus. She is a creature, he is creator, she is human he is God. No comparison. I’m totally offended by the ignorant implication that I or any of us do love her more than him.
Wrong wrong wrong. Go back to the original language. The word used didn’t mean ‘instead of’, it meant ‘in addition’. As in Mary IS blessed (of course) by being his mother, and ADDITIONALLY blessed by the extent to which she followed God’s will.
Ummm … yeah. Mary or any mother is no more than wrapping paper
boy you must seriously hate your mother to think so lowly of the institution of motherhood! And you must think very poorly of Jesus to think so lowly of HIS mother too.And of course it’s impossible for me to admire BOTH the paper AND the present.
You may be too blind and stupid to focus on more than one thing at a time, I’m not.And call his mother mere wrapping paper? Great respect for him to dismiss her, great focus on him to ignore her - who was an essential part of his life - like she’s chopped liver. I don’t know any son worthy of the name who’d tolerate such a dismissive attitude towards his mother.
R
ribozyme
Guest
Tell me what initiated your (heartrending) process of deconversion.
You’ll get used to inconvenient truths such as the notion that no loving God exists (a recent one in my case is the existence of race differences in intelligence).
- Status