Name 3 reasons you are not Catholic (yet).

[kujo313]

Then you will no doubt want to consult the ones who followed those who were around Him… namely the Apostles and their successors, the Popes.

Actually, can’t trust even the writings of those who followed the Apostles. What John did at the cross is just what James spoke of pure religion: to care for the widowed. John did just that. There is no evidence that the Apostles called Mary their own mother, or ours either.

In Genesis, God told Adam to not eat the fruit from the tree. THEN, Eve told the serpent that God said not to eat the fruit NOR even touch the tree, itself. God never said that. Adam and Eve could touch it, climb it, swing from the branches, sit in its shade… but not eat the fruit of it.

One follower of Peter had to have been a “mommy’s boy” and had a special devotion to his own mother. In hearing the Gospel, he’d listen to the “born of a virgin” part and paid closer attention to the “mommy” part of Jesus.

Your “pope” follows a “mommy’s boy” instead of the “Boy”. In the Law and Prophets, it’s perfectly clear that the virgin, the “sign” of the coming Messiah, was not to be worshipped or lifted up.

The woman in Revelation 12 IS Israel. The words that described Israel in the Bible are femine: “her”, “she”, etc.

Today, the RCC has it down to a unique science of how Mary was “assumed” into Heaven and all that when there is no Biblical evidence that it ever happened or would’ve happened.

Reason I’m not Catholic (or ever will be)? It defiled the Gospel 1900 years ago and has been doing it ever since.

 

[Antwill]

It’s sad to read the venom with which you write. Just because you don’t agree with the Catholic position on things doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Perhaps your fallible understanding of the scriptures is wrong.

Besides, don’t you believe that we are all able to interpret scripture for ourselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? It just so happens that we Catholics believe the Catholic Church’s interpretation of the scriptures (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit), and not the countless contradicitng interpretations of the 30,000 some protestant denominations that have popped up in the last 500 years.

Of course, I’m sure you also know that it was the Catholic Church that gave you the scriptures that you use (minus the ones Luther removed). So, in essence, you are interpreting something that was given to you by the Catholic Church, again, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

To quote some line in some movie I saw a long time ago - “You’ve got to let go of that hate; it’ll eat you up inside!”

God Bless.

 

[kujo313]

It’s sad to read the venom with which you write. Just because you don’t agree with the Catholic position on things doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Perhaps your fallible understanding of the scriptures is wrong.

Besides, don’t you believe that we are all able to interpret scripture for ourselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

God Bless.

I’m really sorry but that quote is un-catholic. You have to go by what catholics call “infallible interpretation of Scriptures.” Haven’t you ever read your Bible and have a verse just come alive to you? It’s the Holy Spirit outside the man-made religion called Catholicism or the RCC. You can’t be given a revelation by yourself. You’re bound to what your popes, biships, etc. TELL you it means.

That’s not the way of the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus said is like the wind. You don’t know where it’s going and you can’t control it even though the people you submit to quench it.

 

[Antwill]

The beauty of the Catholic faith is that we have a final authority outside ourselves to help us to interpret the true meaning of scripture. I have studied the teachings of the Church in regard to scripture and those teachings make sense to me, just like I am sure that you have listened to a friend or pastor and have agreed with his interpretation of scripture. I truly do agree with the Church’s interpretation of scripture, just like many non-Catholic Christians agree with the interpretation of their pastor, etc. If I truly believe that the interpretation of the Catholic Church is the correct one, am I wrong? If so, how do you know?

You are correct that as a faithful Catholic I am bound to follow the dogmatic teachings of the Church. I find great comfort in that as I believe Christ when he told us that He would establish a church and that the gates of hell would not overcome it. That church is the Catholic Church. No other church has been around since the time of Christ and since Christ promised that His Church would stand to the end of time, that church has to be the Catholic Church. Of course, you can hypothesize that the Church immediately went into apostasy and the “true” church went underground until the Reformation, but there is no historical evidence for that. Plus, if that were true Christ’s promise to establish an everlasting Church would go unfulfilled, which is, of course, impossible.

I am also not arrogant enough to think that my own earthly, fallible interpretation of scripture is sufficient. God loves us too much to trust our salvation to our own oftentimes flawed interpretation of scripture, even if we think we are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

I would ask you this - do you believe in ultimate truth? If so, what is your ultimate authority to determine what ultimate truth is? I’m sure you would say your “ultimate authority” is the bible and your interpretation of it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If so, explain to me the thousands of different protestant interpretations of scripture - all from people and denominations who believe they are being guided by the Holy Spirit? How do you know the truth in regard to things that aren’t explicitly defined in scripture? Infant or adult baptism? Full immersion or sprinkling? The Trinity? Which passages are we to take literally? Which are figurative?

In short, I can tell by your writings that you are a knowledgeable person. However, I was just struck by your disdain for the Catholic Church and am curious why you are so hostile towards another Christian faith. Obviously, your disagreement with the Church’s teachings and position on Mary seems to be particularly bothersome to you. If you are so put off by the Church, why do you come to a site like this? Do you enjoy being outraged? I’ve heard that stress can shorten a person’s life.

 

[ribozyme]

1. Richard Lynn (for showing that race differences in intelligence exists and I believe this is calamity that is inconsistent with a benevolent God. Why didn’t God make us equal in that respect?)
2. Robert Shapiro (for allowing me to appreciate the value of skeptcism)
3. Gerald Joyce (for showing that the all flora and fuana are a product of the iterative dystelological process of Darwinian evolution)

God did make us “equal” in value. He doesn’t love one person more than another, no matter what the genetic make-up. Who is Richard Lynn to say or imply otherwise?
I know who he is… a human being.

Robert Shapiro is too skeptical… and probably an intellectual snob… Again, who is he? A human being…
Also, about skeptism: I heard a priest once say “Be open minded, but not so open minded your brains fall out.”

Don’t know of any Gerald Joyce. I know one thing about him - He’s a human being…
…equal in value to all other human beings… superior to some in some ways, inferior in other ways… like everyone…

Darwin… same thing. Ho hum… :yawn:

Robert Shapiro is this guy, not the lawyer…

 

[Goth_Catholic]

You quote Revelation 12. That “woman” is Israel. Israel is where Jesus was born. We follow a Jewish Messiah.
If Mary is the “mother of God”, then John 1 and Genesis 1 is false. I’d bet that the Scriptures there are true instead.

If God made Mary free of sin, then Jesus’ death on the cross was not needed for Mary. That is blasphemous.

“There are none that can withstand your power” is wrong, too.

I’m tired of this man-made religion. The catholic denomination is man making God into his own image.
If the pope declares Mary as “co-Mediatrix”, then it would contradict Scripture.

The catholic religion is worse than Islam.

Consitoring the scipture you love and belive in so much was penned, printed, and preached by us, then I think we know their meaning. Yes the lady is Isreal. She is also Mary. She is a symbol for both the city and the mother.

Then I suppose Elizabeth spoke blasphemy as well for she proclaimed “What is this to me that the mother of my LORD should come to me?” Jesus is God made flesh, Mary is his mother thus she is the Mother of God.

Jesus died for his mother as well, Mary was sinless but still mortal. Jesus died to end mortality.

THERE ARE NONE SAVE GOD THAT CAN WITHSTAND HER POWER. Mary’s power is second only to that of God. Even St. Peter who holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven is below her. She is the ark of the new covenent, the immiculate conceptionist, the mother of God, the patroness of souls, the rose of mount carmel, the fruit vine, the slendor of heaven, the Queen of heaven and earth, and mother to us all.

The Catholic church has lived 2000 years. It will live until the world ends and heaven and earth are merged. It is no man maded religion, it is God-made. Christ himself created it. Christ himself will end it. Papa is at the will of God. He will do God’s will. And God’s will will be done.

 

[Efrain]

The catholic religion is worse than Islam.

Are you serious? I see your ability to reason is overshadowed by your hatred of the Church.

 

[Verisimilitude]

The catholic religion is worse than Islam.

Then you have a very wrong but benevolent view of Islam.

 

[Efrain]

Huh?

Check the origional transcripts. The word “blessed” is the same word used when Jesus spoke the “sermon on the mount”. Just as “blessed” we are! Your trouble is that you only hold it to just one person when it’s for every believer.

Did I ever say the word “blessed” was used differently? Nor did I ever claim that Jesus blessed only His mother.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. 28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus blessed His mother not for the fact that she His mother, but rather because she did the will of God.

If you understand this fact then you may understand why we hold Mary so dear in our hearts, not for the simple fact that she our Lord’s mother but because she totally submitted to the will of God.

God did not force His will upon Mary, for He is not a manipulative God. Mary Had free will just like we all do so therefore Mary mediated before God to birth our Savior.

 

[lak611]

Jesus blessed His mother not for the fact that she His mother, but rather because she did the will of God.

If you understand this fact then you may understand why we hold Mary so dear in our hearts, not for the simple fact that she our Lord’s mother but because she totally submitted to the will of God.

God did not force His will upon Mary, for He is not a manipulative God. Mary Had free will just like we all do so therefore Mary mediated before God to birth our Savior.

Great explanation. Mary was the first Christian, since she was the first person to receive Christ (literally in her womb).

 

[kujo313]

“we have a final authority”. Your pope once said that the catholic church has the “exclusive on Salvation” I have to strongly disagree. There IS Salvation outside of your religion. Those who follow Scripture and do not follow your traditions are not doomed to Hell.

You are correct that as a faithful Catholic I am bound to follow the dogmatic teachings of the Church. I find great comfort in that as I believe Christ when he told us that He would establish a church and that the gates of hell would not overcome it. That church is the Catholic Church.

“Chrisianity” has been around longer. I’ve stated in earlier posts the Scriptural reasons why the catholic religion is corrupt. Muslims believe that Islam is true. Jehova’s Witnesses beleive that, too.

No other church has been around since the time of Christ and since Christ promised that His Church would stand to the end of time, that church has to be the Catholic Church.

A "Universal Church" HAS been around but it's not the RCC.  Your religious leaders quench the Holy Spirit by making rules and regulations reguarding Penticost.  In Brazil, your pope is going there to stop the growing Penticostal Church and the delining of the catholic church.  No true "church" would stop the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, you can hypothesize that the Church immediately went into apostasy and the “true” church went underground until the Reformation, but there is no historical evidence for that. Plus, if that were true Christ’s promise to establish an everlasting Church would go unfulfilled, which is, of course, impossible.

Until the “Reformation”, the pope appointed individuals to various positions within the Church (bishop, cardinal, etc.) on the basis of financial contributions. Also, the RCC taught and sold indulgences ( Indulgence, in Roman Catholic theology, is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment due to sins which have already been forgiven. The indulgence is granted by the church after the sinner has confessed and received absolution.(Code of Canon Law 992-997) Indulgences were a major point of contention when Martin Luther initiated the Reformation.

I am also not arrogant enough to think that my own earthly, fallible interpretation of scripture is sufficient. God loves us too much to trust our salvation to our own oftentimes flawed interpretation of scripture, even if we think we are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Was it arrogance when Paul wrote his letters? No. God loves you so much that He wants to speak to you one-on-one.

I would ask you this - do you believe in ultimate truth? If so, what is your ultimate authority to determine what ultimate truth is?

Luke 20:21 Then they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You say and teach rightly, and You do not show personal favoritism, but teach the way of God in truth.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Truth revealed to all followers of Jesus.

I’m sure you would say your “ultimate authority” is the bible and your interpretation of it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If so, explain to me the thousands of different protestant interpretations of scripture - all from people and denominations who believe they are being guided by the Holy Spirit?
1 Thess 5:12 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

QUOTE]

I’ll finish the rest in another reply.

 

[LilyM]

If God made Mary free of sin, then Jesus’ death on the cross was not needed for Mary. That is blasphemous.

Rubbish - she was saved from sin preventively, by not being permitted to fall into sin, in anticipation of Christ’s redemptive death. Her sinlessness was entirely appropriate for her role as his mother. And his death was just as necessary to achieve this for her as it was to achieve salvation for us.

It is simply that is was applied and achieved differently in her case. She was saved from sin by being given the grace to never committ it, whereas we weren’t, but are simply cleansed of our guilt when we repent.

 

[kujo313]

Are you serious? I see your ability to reason is overshadowed by your hatred of the Church.

Islam only treats Jesus, the Messiah, as simply a prophet. Their Quarn tells them to kill the Jews and Christians. Obviously, it’s clealy wrong.

The catholic religion, however, is off, an a different direction, about as much as the Jehovah’s Witnesses: deceiving countless millions around the world.

John 14:13-14 “And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.”

John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.”

John 16:24 “Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.”

Yet, no matter what Jesus said, the RCC asks others in the form of popes, “saints” and Mary.

Luke 20:21 Then they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You say and teach rightly, and You do not show personal favoritism, but teach the way of God in truth"

John 10:1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 14:6 " Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

The use of the scapular brought to the RCC through an aparation of Mary is to be worn so the believer can escape Hell. There is only ONE WAY.

Matthew 7:14

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The “catholic” church is too big to qualify for the “few”.

Just as your denomination has it’s “traditions”, other denominations have theirs. Does your “traditions” line up with Scripture? It can’t be because your denomination would call that “sola scriptula”.
Your denomination is "off". Not as much as Islam, but it's still "off"... not following the narrow way.

 

[lak611]

Matthew 7:14

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The “catholic” church is too big to qualify for the “few”.

Nobody has ever claimed that all Catholics will be saved. This verse is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[kujo313]

Rubbish - she was saved from sin preventively, by not being permitted to fall into sin, in anticipation of Christ’s redemptive death. Her sinlessness was entirely appropriate for her role as his mother. And his death was just as necessary to achieve this for her as it was to achieve salvation for us.

It is simply that is was applied and achieved differently in her case. She was saved from sin by being given the grace to never committ it, whereas we weren’t, but are simply cleansed of our guilt when we repent.

Romans 3:21-23 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Mary was saved from sin just like you and I. Your assumption is man-made, going further and further away from the truth.

 

[LilyM]

Romans 3:21-23 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Mary was saved from sin just like you and I. Your assumption is man-made, going further and further away from the truth.

Yes, she was saved from sin - preventively. And you know full well that the ‘all’ is not literally all, because if it were it would include Jesus himself. It’s a literary technique called hyperbole, read up on it some time.

Paul was fond of this sort of exaggeration, in another place he says ‘there is no righteous, not one’ which is obviously wrong, in another place HE HIMSELF states that Abraham was indeed righteous - proven to be through his faith in God’s promises.

You are the one making unfounded and inaccurate interpretations and assumptions.

 

[happygal]

As i began to understand more of Catholicism, i become less bias against their doctrine/dogma…LOVE IT exactly. I would not say why i have yet to become a catholic since i have not completed my RCIA.

Previously i don’t have many Catholic frez, the couple of them i know are very selfish/self centered Catholic pple. Apart from that, i have never being invited to their CC, never share gospel to me…so how do i have a chance to step into a Catholic church in that case rite!!! Right now, alittle more Catholic Frez, sadly doesn’t seem to see anyone of them carries good fruits, only one of them are quite ok…the rest…sign…no need to talk about it…
So let God’s will be done upon me

 

[kujo313]

As i began to understand more of Catholicism, i become less bias against their doctrine/dogma…LOVE IT exactly. I would not say why i have yet to become a catholic since i have not completed my RCIA.

Previously i don’t have many Catholic frez, the couple of them i know are very selfish/self centered Catholic pple. Apart from that, i have never being invited to their CC, never share gospel to me…so how do i have a chance to step into a Catholic church in that case rite!!! Right now, alittle more Catholic Frez, sadly doesn’t seem to see anyone of them carries good fruits, only one of them are quite ok…the rest…sign…no need to talk about it…
So let God’s will be done upon me

There are some ppl here that would love to share the Gospel with you if you don’t mind an ex-catholic fellowshipping with you.

 

[kujo313]

Yes, she was saved from sin - preventively. And you know full well that the ‘all’ is not literally all, because if it were it would include Jesus himself. It’s a literary technique called hyperbole, read up on it some time.

Paul was fond of this sort of exaggeration, in another place he says ‘there is no righteous, not one’ which is obviously wrong, in another place HE HIMSELF states that Abraham was indeed righteous - proven to be through his faith in God’s promises.

You are the one making unfounded and inaccurate interpretations and assumptions.

Abraham was with the Old Covenant, set by God. Mary is part of the New. The New Covenant standard was set by Jesus: all have sinned, all need a Savior. Jesus died for the virgin who said “let it be according to Your will.” It was God’s Will that His Messiah be born from a virgin. (Look it up in the Old Testament) It was NOT God’s Will to “lift up” the virgin; that’s man’s idea.

 

[LilyM]

Abraham was with the Old Covenant, set by God. Mary is part of the New. The New Covenant standard was set by Jesus: all have sinned, all need a Savior. Jesus died for the virgin who said “let it be according to Your will.” It was God’s Will that His Messiah be born from a virgin. (Look it up in the Old Testament) It was NOT God’s Will to “lift up” the virgin; that’s man’s idea.

Of all the rubbish I’ve ever heard on these forums I suppose you think babies who die at three days of age have sinned too, and are included in that ‘all’? How about an adult whose mental function is that of a three day old child? Have they sinned too? Are they included in the ‘all’?

All Catholics accept that Mary needed a saviour, and that she was saved - that’s not the issue. She said so herself. We believe she was saved by being granted the grace not to sin. That’s how she KNEW she was saved even before Christ was born and rejoiced in her saviour. Even though she had many years left to her on earth in which to sin and lose that salvation (or prove that she’s never really been saved, if you will), if she was at all susceptible to sinning.

And whatever arguments you may wish to bring, that ‘all have sinned’ line is woefully inadequate.