Name 3 reasons you are not Catholic (yet).

[guanophore]

The angel Gabriel did NOT ask Mary her permission but said “you will conceive.” If Mary would’ve said “no”, God’s plan would not have stopped.

So, what are you saying kujo? Mary did not really have a choice?

Are you saying that the HS raped Mary !?

You have said before that “God would have chosen another virgin”. But that didn’t happen, did it? Because Mary, blessed, obedient servant of God all her life said “Let it be done to me according to your word”. And she still teaches all of us this principle today.

 

[kujo313]

So, what are you saying kujo? Mary did not really have a choice?

Are you saying that the HS raped Mary !?

You have said before that “God would have chosen another virgin”. But that didn’t happen, did it? Because Mary, blessed, obedient servant of God all her life said “Let it be done to me according to your word”. And she still teaches all of us this principle today.

Never. Why would ever think of such a thing? Where’s your mind?
Who would not want to accept Jesus? Mary was obedient, are you? Mary’s words are teaching, but I’m not past Jesus’ teachings. I’m not looking into other teachings.

 

[kujo313]

kujo claims to be a cradle Catholic for 20 years that went to catechism. It stands to reason that he has been to Mass, and does not understand. Earlier today I read a post from him that said Catholics should go have their stomach pumped after Mass, to see if Jesus’ flesh was there. Clearly he does not perceive the Body and the Blood. I think he is not ready to be in Mass, and maybe he was never ready!

Was ready. Left the ceremonies and religiosity for a personal relationship with Jesus. Directly with Him and not through anything.
When you take away the road blocks and stumbling blocks that your religion has, it’s beautiful and easy.

 

[LilyM]

Was ready. Left the ceremonies and religiosity for a personal relationship with Jesus. Directly with Him and not through anything.
When you take away the road blocks and stumbling blocks that your religion has, it’s beautiful and easy.

It’s beautiful and easy IN my religion thanks kujo - love Jesus and trust His promises to the Church and to Peter (which he didn’t make to you or me personally) to protect Her and guide Her, for all time.

And trust His unfathomable love for His mother - and hers for Him - and then it can’t possibly lead you astray.

I’m sorry you’ve found it so difficult.

 

[kujo313]

Sacred revelation is not expressed through through dictionary.com, kujo. I am glad you are reading it, because it sounds like you never graduated High School, and there are a lot of words you don’t understand.

However, Christians believe that the meaning of words related to salvation are defined by Christ, and by the authorities He appointed. Do you have an authority problem, kujo?

You are bearing false witness when you accuse Catholics of worshipping saints. God alone is worthy of worship. I would like to believe that you are spreading these lies because you are ignorant (uneducated) or wrongly educated. From some of the links I have seen that you are using, it is very plausible that you have been misinformed.

Nope.

After you’re dead and gone, your family will go through ALL of the things that you collected while alive. What will they find? What does it say about you?
A certain retired NFL player, name escapes me now, was being interviewed at his home after hearing that he was elected to be in the NFL Hall of Fame. At his house, the reporter could find no trace of his football past. No pictures, no football, no trophy case. Nothing but a cross on the wall and an open Bible.
When asked about where was his awards and such, the man said that all of that didn’t matter and that the only thing that did matter was his relationship with Jesus.
When you submit yourself to that, no statue of any saint, no paintings of Mary will do.

No authority problem here. My Pastor has been annointed with the Spiritual Gift of Pastoring and he does it well. The Holy Spirit speaks through him.
We follow the traditions of Jesus and believe that you must be born again to see the Kingdom of God JUST like Jesus taught us.

 

[kujo313]

It’s beautiful and easy IN my religion thanks kujo - love Jesus and trust His promises to the Church and to Peter (which he didn’t make to you or me personally) to protect Her and guide Her, for all time.

And trust His unfathomable love for His mother - and hers for Him - and then it can’t possibly lead you astray.

I’m sorry you’ve found it so difficult.

Not difficult at all. Jesus died for ALL. He loves us ALL the same. God’s Will is that ALL be saved. Jesus was not just speaking to Peter but to ALL followers of Him.

The way I see it, Jesus says “Follow Me.” Mary said, “Do what He says.” The RCC says, “Do what she says.”

You don’t necessarily have to keep looking to see what Mary says. You can just go directly to God through Jesus alone. If you want to put a “detour” in your way, that’s on you but according to Jesus you don’t have to.

 

[kujo313]

Here is another example of bearing false witness, kujo. The Catholic Church puts all trust in the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (I dare you to find the word Trinity in your bible!)

Men are fallible, yes, but God is not. Jesus is God. Jesus appointed His apostles to carry on His church. He promised that He would remain with them until the end of the age, and that the HS would guide them into all truth. Just as you read in the book of Acts at the council of Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit works through God’s appointed authorities to make decisions about His teachings for the current time and issues.

“Jesus appointed His apostles…” Not just Peter. Your religion lifts up Peter when he didn’t even want people to worship him at all. He said that we ALL our building blocks and that Jesus is our Cornerstone. Your religion says that Peter is the Cornerstone.

The word “Trinity” may not be in my Bible, but the Trinity is CLEARLY in there! No doubt about it.

Tell me, was Paul one of “God’s appointed authorities?” Yet, Paul was not a follower of Peter but of Christ. Has God appointed you to lead a class or Bible study? He has me and the Holy Spirit guides me…

… just not through your denomination and its own rules.

By the way, I’m sure that I can find popes, bishops and priests in your denomination that have said that Salvation, hope and trust is through Mary alone. There IS division in your denomination.

 

[kujo313]

The only difference is that you did not brought forth Jesus. Jesus was born of a woman, Mary, and Jesus was in her womb for 9 months.

Jesus was not born in you. You have Jesus in you but not born in you.

Better way of putting it, tyvm.

However, after 9 months, Jesus LEFT Mary’s body and she had to follow Him just like you and I have to.

 

[LilyM]

Nope.

After you’re dead and gone, your family will go through ALL of the things that you collected while alive. What will they find? What does it say about you?
A certain retired NFL player, name escapes me now, was being interviewed at his home after hearing that he was elected to be in the NFL Hall of Fame. At his house, the reporter could find no trace of his football past. No pictures, no football, no trophy case. Nothing but a cross on the wall and an open Bible.
When asked about where was his awards and such, the man said that all of that didn’t matter and that the only thing that did matter was his relationship with Jesus.
When you submit yourself to that, no statue of any saint, no paintings of Mary will do.

No authority problem here. My Pastor has been annointed with the Spiritual Gift of Pastoring and he does it well. The Holy Spirit speaks through him.
We follow the traditions of Jesus and believe that you must be born again to see the Kingdom of God JUST like Jesus taught us.

He had no pictures of his family at all? That would be sad - families do matter, even to God, since they were important enough that two of the commandments were about how to treat your loved ones :yup:

And I have pictures of my family - as well as my Lord and God, Jesus, and my heavenly family - Mama Mary, and a few of the saints who are my brothers and sisters in Christ :yup: - exactly how it should be.

We’re all one Body of Christ you know, kujo, can NOT get by without each other. Like a foot trying to survive without the hands, heart, lungs and other members.

 

[kujo313]

I made a decision to follow Christ at the motor pool of the 13th Signal BN on April 18, 1974 at Ft Hood, TX, after a long talk with a Chaplin that was a minister with the Church of the Nazarene (Wesleyan). About two weeks later on May 5, 1974 I was Baptized, thus I was born again at the First Baptist Church of Killeen. On April 15th, 2006 I was confirmed and received into full-communion into the Catholic Church. All that has nothing to do with this thread as does your conversion story. I give it to show you that I have been lead by the Spirit to follow my Lord Jesus by route of many different Churchs and have somewhat of a understanding of many of thier teachings, doctrines and values. I understand you having misgivens about the Catholic Church , for it took me 31 years to see were God wanted me to be. Twenty of those married to a Catholic while I continued in a “non-denomination” mind set.

What I don’t understand is why you don’t have an understanding of the book of Galatians Chapter 5 verses 22 -26?

Most that have responded to you have asked you to look beyond prejudgment and look at what the Church teaches, from the Church sources. I respect your decision not to accept those teachings, but can you at lest show respect to a fellow Christian and look at the Church teachings on these points? Instead of just blowing us off? WWJD?

Gal 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

One other question, Why do you use a Japanese name, better known as a very evil dog from a Stephen King novel for your users name? are you of Japanese descent? Not that it matters.
:byzsoc: :harp:

First, my nick came from my last name. It was around long before a certain book was even thought of. I’m not Japanese, either.

I looked at the RCC’s teachings carefully. God says to put no other gods before Him. He says to have no graven images, either. Jesus says to come to Him. He says that He’s the only way to God. The Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, says that there is only one Mediator between God and man and that’s Jesus.
Not hard to understand at all. The RCC is closed-minded and arrogant; saying that it as the exclusive on Salvation when Salvation for all is through Christ alone.
Jesus was not only telling Peter to feed His “sheep” because the others was doing it, too, and willing to die for it. Therefore, Jesus was speaking to ALL who believe.

 

[kujo313]

He did depend upon her, as His eartlhy mother. But you are right, in order to sanctify her so that He could do that, he did have to die for her. However, the merits of his sacrifice were applied to her in advance, so that He could become fully human. It is really a Christological arguement that was settled by the church in the early centuries. If He did not take His humanity from Mary, then he was not fully Human. But, being divine, He could not take that humanity from a person stained by original sin.

I am curious, though, what is so bad about Mary being extra special? Don’t you think others have been chosen to be extra special? Like Abraham, Joseph, Moses, etc?

Honor of divinity, yes, but there are other “lesser” honors. Jesus affirmed the validity of the 10 commandments, which tell us to honor our father and mother. I am sure that Jesus followed this, don’ t you? If it was good enough for Jesus to honor Mary as mother, it is good enough for us too.

Catholics believe that Mary was always obedient to God, and that God honored her because of it.

John 12:26
26 If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him."

Acts 5:12-13

12 Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. 13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor."

Honor is not a problem, so long as it is passed on to the Source.

Rom 12:9-10

9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; 10 love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor."

Many say that Catholics overdo the honor to Mary. However, when I stand before Christ, I will feel confident that I showed respect for His mother, and kept the commandment to honor my mother.

Scripture teaches us that we should even honor our secular leaders, who certainly deserve it less than Mary!

Rom 13:5-7
6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due."

It is the teaching of the Apostles that leads us to honor the saints:

Phil 2:29-3:1
9 So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me."

Should they be less honored after they have passed over?

Tradition teaches us that Mary was widowed rather young. At that time, widows were to be taken in by the nearest family member. Jesus cared for His mother until His ministry took Him from her. AT that time, He gave her to John. What a privilege for John!

1 Tim 5:3
" Honor widows who are real widows."

We don’t know how long she lived, but all the accounts in the NT state that she was present serving the disciples.

1 Tim 5:17
17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor,"

She honored the Apostles, and they honored her in return.

No, I think she was with him until the bitter end. 33 years or so. There is no one that spent more time with Jesus. I will not compare her suffering to others who have suffered, because each person is called to their own suffering. I do agree, God chose certain people, and had plans for them.

If God can speak through a donkey and a burning bush; If God can speak from a cloud; if God can make sons of Abraham from stones; If God can speak this whole universe into existance; etc…

then WHY can’t God come as a fully-human, sinless baby through a woman who’s a sinner and needs a Savior like all the rest of us? That’s a miracle by itself.
God does not NEED or DEPEND on us for anything.

After all of that comes your fallible, human reasoning which does not matter to God at all. You can say all you want, “But the woman…” and it still would not matter.

Mary is only mentioned as a “sign” from God: that a virgin shall give birth. God loves us all the same. The Word says that He’s no respector of persons.

Rev 3:21-22

21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

It seems that your “church” is not listening to the Spirit.

 

[LilyM]

If God can speak through a donkey and a burning bush; If God can speak from a cloud; if God can make sons of Abraham from stones; If God can speak this whole universe into existance; etc…

then WHY can’t God come as a fully-human, sinless baby through a woman who’s a sinner and needs a Savior like all the rest of us? That’s a miracle by itself.
God does not NEED or DEPEND on us for anything.

After all of that comes your fallible, human reasoning which does not matter to God at all. You can say all you want, “But the woman…” and it still would not matter.

Mary is only mentioned as a “sign” from God: that a virgin shall give birth. God loves us all the same. The Word says that He’s no respector of persons.

Rev 3:21-22

21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

It seems that your “church” is not listening to the Spirit.

If God can do all that then why not save us without coming to earth as a human being - or indeed coming to Earth fullstop? It’s not NECESSARY for God to do anything - but he CHOOSES to do things, and do them a certain way. He CHOSE to use men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Elijah through which to bring his plans about in the Old Testament … and in the New he chose John the Baptist, the Apostles and disciples of Christ … AND MARY!!! Not JUST Christ, since someone had to carry things on after he left!

God CHOSE to specify that the Ark, which held the tablets of the law of the Old Covenant, be perfect, pure - and untouched by humans. Same with the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, who held his Living Word within her own body - she was to be pure (sinless) and untouched (perpetual virgin).

 

[kellie]

kellie;2241292:

So why is it wrong that man has made one up about Mary?

QUOTE]

We’re supposed to direct all our prayers and supplications to God through Jesus Christ.

Man through Jesus to God.

There are no other parts to this equation. Why is it so hard for you?

That wasn’t the objection to the Hail Mary, your objection was it is a “man-made” prayer , and Jesus never taught it to anyone.

Now I prove that statement wrong you throw another one back about prayer having to go direct through to God.

Do a search on these forums, and u will see that is easily proven wrong too.

 

[Bennie_P]

First, my nick came from my last name. It was around long before a certain book was even thought of. I’m not Japanese, either.

quote]
I figured as much that you were not Japanese.

Does the church you attend have a web site, that has a statement on what they/you believe? I would like to have a better understanding on where you are coming from.

Here is the web site from my Church.

 

[Mommyof02green]

God does not NEED or DEPEND on us for anything.

So are you saying that Christ did not DEPEND on Mary to feed him, cloth him, nurse him, etc.

My kids depend on me to do many, many, things. Of course as they get older they don’t “need” me like they do when they were an infant.

Of Course this Does NOT mean that Mary is God. Mary is NOT God. However it does show that God does DEPEND on us, in the sense that he TRUST us to follow him, to do what is “right”.

One of the meaning of the word depend is to place trust or confidence.

God had trust/confidence in Mary. He trust that she would say “yes”. God had trust/confidence that Mary, like all mothers, would care for HIM as a child.

God had trust/confidence that Peter and the other apostles would feed his sheep.

God had trust/confidence that we will seek HIM and would follow His will.

Trust is goes hand and hand with Free Will…

 

[guanophore]

“The pope is Infalliable.”
Is the Pope a man that can sin? What scripture says he’ is other than a man?

Danny, you are just misunderstanding what the Church means when she teaches infallibility. Not, it does not mean he is not a man, or that he cannot sin.

1826 Websters defines.
INFAL’LIBLE, a. [L. fallo.]
1. Not fallible; not capable of erring; entirely exempt from liability to mistake; applied to persons. No man is infallible; to be infallible is the prerogative of God only.
2. Not liable to fail, or to deceive confidence; certain; as infallible evidence; infallible success.

The Catholic Church defines terms in accordance with the sacred tradition that was handed down to us from the Apostles, not according to Webster or any other modern sense. This is why study of history is so important to understand our faith.

However, what you describe does fit the Holy Spirit, which Jesus sent to the Church, and by whose infallible power He promised that we would be led into all truth.

Do you say the Pope is God?

Of course not! But we do believe that God is able to keep His word to guide us into all truth.

What is a vicar of Christ? Excuse my ignorance.

It is a good question. The Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth, the one standing in for Jesus. It is his responsibility to carry out the mission Jesus gave to Peter. Peter’s successor is able to speak for Christ because Jesus empowed him with authority: Luke 10:16

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

This is why Catholics say that when Protestants reject the Pope, they are rejecting Christ.

I know the definition from reading it in the 1828 Websters. Says he is a “person”. How did a person become infalliable? If he were infallable he would be a god, and not subject to death. Sin came into the world through Adam and along with it a death sentence for us mere mortals, creation of God. Do Popes die. Do they sin?

Yes, popes can and do sin. The teaching of infallibility applies to the instruction of the Church in matters of faith, and morals. You can see this in our first Pope, Peter. Peter made personal mistakes, but when he was promulgating the Gospel of Jesus, he spoke and wrote infallibly.

“Just as scipture and tradition are equally honored”
The Bible warns against traditions of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Absolutely! But you may be confusing traditions of men with Sacred Traditions. The Catholic Church guards the Divine Deposit of faith given to us by the Apostles. There are two forms of this deposit, written, and oral:

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

Both are of equal importance and value.

I recommend a great thread on the forum called “The Catholic teachings did not come from the Bible”. There you can read a great deal about the role of tradition.

Please don’t send me links to oral tradition or writing other than Biblical. I can only be convinced by the Holy Word of God by the Apostles doctrine as recorded and handed down from them as they learned from the Lord Jesus Himself.

If you wish to remain invicibly ignorant, it is better if you avoid learning about the history of the early church.

Most of the things Jesus taught the Apostles never got written down. Enough of it is written so that we and find our way to Jesus. If Jesus gives you a gift that comes in two boxes, why say you will not open the other box? You are very happy with the gift you have opened, and you don’t want to know what is in the other box?

Do you think oral tradition is the answer? Too easy to corrupt.

It is the answer to some things, yes. Scritpure, the Magesterium, and Sacred Tradition together are the answer. yes, Oral tradition can become corruped, and has done so, which is why we have the other two legs of the stool.

 

[guanophore]

I can trace the languge of my Bible back to the 1st century Gothic.

Really? I did not know there WAS any Gothic back then…

Can you show me how you do that?

Why so much trust in men and not your own salvation. Each of us will give account for every word that we speak at the judgement seat of Christ. Be sure you are speaking the words of God and not men. Your eternity will depend on it.

I guess I am confused about why you are saying “put so much trust in men”. The Apostles were empowered to powerfully preach the Word of God. The teachings we have come from Jesus, and the ones He commissioned to lead His church. They are men, yes, but their message, miracles, empowerment and effectiveness all come from God, and not themselves.

There will be no indulgences at the judgment seat.

Actually, I think the judgement seat is EXACTLY where the indulgences are applied!

You and I will stand on our own testimony and faith in Jesus Christ. It is all about the Cross and the what happended there. Nothing else matters.

Jesus is Lord of All
Danny

Respectfully, I think this is an error. Scripture teaches that anyone who testifies to himself should not be believed. As Catholics, we rely on the testimony of Christ. As Catholics, we believe that there are three that will testify for us before the judgement seat of God:

1 John 5:7-8
7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree."

Jesus saves us by the shedding of His blood on the cross. Baptism saves us through the application of this saving work to ourselves personally, and the Spirit sanctifies us so that we can be presented without spot or blemish before His holy throne.

 

[guanophore]

Been there, done that for 20 years. Same words said every mass.

If the words are repeated, does that make them somehow invalid? Are the prayers that Jesus and the Apostles prayed every week at synagogue “vain repetitions” because they prayed them the same, week after week? I realize they were vain for you, because you were not walking with God, and you did not recognize Him present.
kujo313;2214992:

We should not worship any creature, not even the blessed Mary. We must worship God only. We can never love Jesus too much; He is our Creator who takes care of us and all the universe. He became man for our salvation and died on the cross to save His people from their sins. I love the Lord Jesus too. He is the very purpose of my life and my sincere desire is to honour His name.

This is very Catholic of you, kujo!

Yet we understand that Mary is not the saviour herself.

Yes, we do understand that. We also understand that Jesus has made her a partaker in His ministry of salvation and reconciliation. She is our model, and exemplifies what Jesus wants to do in the lives of each of us. If we say “Let it be done to me according to Thy Word,” this will happen.

Every Christian should consider Mary with respect. She is forever to be called blessed.

Great kujo! Very Catholic of you.

Yet, I think it is a sign of disrespect when people expect from her things that she cannot give.

I suppose this is true. If Mary were not “in Christ” she would be able to offer us little of value. It is her eternal resting place with Him that releases His grace through her. God wants to release this same grace in all of us, which is why we are enjoined to pray for one another.

Why would people pray to her,

Because the effectual fervent prayers of a righteous person avail much.

when the Bible clearly teaches us that we should pray to God and that God alone knows our hearts (1 Kings 8:39)?

This is a common protestant misunderstanding. Since Mary is in the communion of saints, and the saints are all in the presence of God, when we pray, we join our prayers with them. There is no division or separation from God.

Why would people ask grace from Mary, when the Bible teaches us that all grace comes from God (1 Peter 5:10)?

This is a good question. All grace does come from God. Scripture tells us that Mary is “full of grace”. There is no room left in her that lacks in grace. This is a very special state. Where grace abounds, sin cannot exist. Why ask grace from her? She is a vessel through which it flows. We see that God has ordained that His grace should flow through people.

Acts 5:15

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them."

Do you think it was Peter whose shadow healed the sick? No, it was the grace of God, working in this manner. Doesn’t it make sense to run and get under the shadow if you need healing? Does that mean they were worshipping Peter, or his shadow? Surely not!

Acts 28:8-9
Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him healed him. 9 And when this had taken place, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases also came and were cured."

The text here says that Paul cured the people with diseases. Yet, we know that it was not Paul himself, but Christ within him through which the grace flowed. It is true, some did misunderstand this and thought Paul was a god of some kind, but he was quick to correct them.

8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people."

This passage says that Stephen did great signs and wonders. But we know this was all done by the HS through him, not by Stephen himself! Acts 6:8-9

12 Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles." Acts 5:12

Is it right to worship the Apostles because grace flowed through them? No. But we honor them for their obedience to God, and for being good vessels through which His grace is poured, and examples for us.

 

[guanophore]

Why should people call her “our life” and “our hope”, when the Bible teaches us that the Lord is our life and hope (Colossians 3:4; 1 Timothy 1:1)?

Also a very good question. Because she is in Christ, and she is a new creation, and she is seated with Christ in the heavenly places. Her life is a model of what Jesus wants for each of us. The life she has in Christ is available to all of us. She demonstrates the fulfillment of our hopes of salvation. By His stripes, we are healed. As she has received her heavenly reward already, we can look to her as an example. There is no life or hope without Christ. Yet, if our lives are hidden with Christ in God, as Mary’s is, then that life and hope will be fulfilled in us as well.

Why should people make her a mediator, when the Bible says that there is one mediator, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5)?

An excellent question! You are on a roll, kujo!

Jesus has called us to be partakers of His grace, and has entrusted the work of reconciliation to us.

2 Cor 5:17-20
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us."

As the first Christian, and the one to initially embody the Christ, and to learn how He would reconcile the world to Himself through her service to Him, she became His first ambassador. He allowed her a unique role in the ministry of reconciliation (mediation). Yes, “all this is from God” but God has chosen to use His faithful to be partakers of His grace. This is why Mary is also called “our life, our hope”. She shows us how our life and our hope in God can be lived out. May we all receive him as she has!

And why should people trust even the hour of their death wholly to her care? Isn’t the Good Shepherd able to keep His sheep and bring them safely to glory (John 10:27,28)?

Mary has promised to intercede for us at the hour of death, and we say “yes” to that! I would like for all to pray for me now, and at the hour of my death. Having lived with Jesus intimately through His 33 years on earth, Mary knows the “mind of Christ” very well. She is able to pray in HIs will, just as anyone who is close to Jesus can do. It is not Mary or Jesus. Mary has no other desire for us than to follow her son.

As we would expect, we do not find explicit statements in Catholic literature that we should worship Mary.

Why would you expect that? Could it be that the Catholic Church really does NOT teach worship of Mary?

 

[guanophore]

You are just trying to be a bully “I am calling your bluff”
Who cares. Your ignorance shows in the fact that you have thrown up a smoke screen and have not answered any of my questions. You simply go on the attack like a vulture looking for crumbs of rotten meat to make yourself look glorius taking away the questions asked. Is that the best you can do. Are you a Jesuit. You certainly act like one.

Bet you would like another inquisition. Then only you could ask the question and give the answers and then burn me at the stake.

The post was in no way bullying you, just asking that a foundation be provided for the outrageous assertion that was made. This post, on the other hand, has deteriorated into name calling and accusations. To that end, it lacks charity, which is one of the rules to post in the forum. If you behave in an uncharitable manner by accusing the brethren or calling names, you will no longer be allowed to post in here.

It’s probably not funny to Lively Stone. Many fundamentalists believe that Jesuits regularly impersonate members of other churches.

You should read the Chick tract on the origins of the KJV sometime. It’s one of the less offensive (relatively!) and more hilarious tracts. It claims that many of the KJV translators were Jesuits, but King James posted guards to stand over them and make sure they didn’t change the translation. There is a cool picture of very grim-looking pikemen glaring at villainous Jesuit translators. The tract does not explain whether these were unusually well-educated pikemen, who understood Greek and Hebrew and thus could check the accuracy of the translation!

Edwin

Really! I learned something new today! Pikemen schooled in the ancient languages. If that don’t beat all!