Name 3 reasons you are not Catholic (yet).

[guanophore]

How does that lyric from that song “Mr. Grinch” (Dr Seuss) go? I think it something like “I wouldn’t touch you with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole!”

That’s how I feel about Chick and his tracks. However, I’m personally trying to get over that feeling. After all how can I “defend” my faith (Catholicism) if I don’t know what “offense” has up their sleeve?

Well have a good one Edwin and God Bless.

There is a storekeeper near here who panders them. I am thinking about getting a stack, and putting parts of them here so we can go thru them one by one (if we don’t get too nauseated).

 

[guanophore]

Who needs to force? Mary was visited by an angel. What would YOU do? Say “no”? She submitted to God’s Will. That’s it.

Well, kujo, I would like to think that I would submit to God’s will. But we can see that a great many people, when visited by Christ, who is superior to the angels, said “no”.

Mary said “yes” because she had already accepted God as her saviour before the visitation of the angel.

Pentecostals was with Jesus. The Church was born on Pentecost.

Yes, of course. And Mary was there with them, even though she had alread been overshadowed by the HS 33 years prior. The Church that was born on that day is the Catholic Church, which is Pentecostal (manifesting the gifts of the HS).

Some of the canons and traditions of the RCC contradicts Scripture and yet, because your pope says so, you put his words above the Word.

No, kujo, there are no contradictions between Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. There cannot be, since they both come from the same Source.

I am not sure what you think the Pope says that indicates otherwise. What Papal document are you reading?

If they seem to contradict, it is because your understanding is incomplete of either one or the other.

In repeating this tale, you are bearing false witness, which is considered uncharitable, and is against the rules of the forum.

If you think there’s any relationship between the modern Pentecostal denomination and what the Apostles were teaching at Pentecost you’re sadly deluded

It may be that you do not know much about the Pentecostal denomnation, Lily. Having sojourned in it, I can testify that there is a relationship between the monder Pentecostal denomination and what the Apostles were teaching. There are some very sincere Pentecostals that worship God in the best way they know. The Holy Spirit has manifested Himself in these ecclesiastical communities. Though there is a lot missing, and error that is also taught, lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I'm being told that if I don't agree with the RCC, I'm hellbound.  Not true.  I'm told that living according to Scripture is not good enough.  Not true.

Well, who is telling you that? Maybe you need a different teacher?

I dont have to explain anything, the Bible is enough.

If the bible is sufficient for you, then why are you not content? Why are you here on this forum?

Tell whoever invited non-Catholics in these threads to stop it if they don’t expect us to speak up and defend the Word.

I encourage you to go here:

justforcatholics.org/salvation.htm

kujo, the pandering of anticatholic material here is against the forum rules. non-Catholics are welcome here, but they have to follow the forum rules.

 

[lak611]

There is a storekeeper near here who panders them. I am thinking about getting a stack, and putting parts of them here so we can go thru them one by one (if we don’t get too nauseated).

I wouldn’t buy those things and support Chick financially. How about just saving the ones that people hand out to you? I’ve even gotten those things handed to me at the county fair.

 

[guanophore]

Of course we are all fallible and can make mistakes. The protection of infallibility was given for the divine deposit of faith. there is Absolute Truth, kujo. Jesus came to testify to the truth, as He is the Truth. His teachings have been preserved by the Apostles and their successors.

Moreover you don’t even abide by your own rule. For you read the Scriptures and use your mind to understand the meaning of the text.

The Church does not tell us not to use our mind. Of course we should read, study to show ourselves approved, and to pray to understand the meaning of the text. Using the guidance of the magesterium, our studies will not take us away from our faith.

What you really want to say is this: Read the Bible as much as you like, as long as you don’t question any doctrine taught by the Roman Catholic magisterium.

.

No, kujo, that is not what I really want to say. It is fine to question all the doctrine. You have been doing a great job yourself! And if you find any variation between the teaching of the While questioning, it is important to be aware that God has already revealed the answers to His Apostles (preserved by their successors). Answers to the questions that lead away from Apostolic teaching will lead us away from Christ.

The Roman magisterium refuses to be held accountable and to be examined in the light of God’s Word!

I believe you make this statement out of ignorance, kujo. You are uneducated about the accountability of the magesterium. Certainly are not qualified to hold them accountable, since you do not meet the criteria that was laid out by the Apostles for that task.

 

[Mickey]

The Church does not tell us not to use our mind. Of course we should read, study to show ourselves approved, and to pray to understand the meaning of the text. Using the guidance of the magesterium, our studies will not take us away from our faith.

Amen brother!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[guanophore]

Congratulations on wasting so much time on scriptures to tell us what we already know and believe.

It is never a waste of time to search the scriptures. However kujo did not write this. If you compare his posts, you can easily see that he does not write that well. This material was taken from
www.justforcatholics.org
He is committing plagarism by taking this material from an anticatholic web site, and pasting it here without a citation in violation of the forum rules.

His agenda is to safe these poor deceived Catholics who have gone after “doctrines of demons” and bring the true gospel, so that we can come out of her (the Whore of Babylon) and be saved by Sola Fida and Sola Scriptura.

It’s up to YOU to prove, from Scripture: the Word of God, the Foundation of our faith, to prove the catholic’s position on Mary.
Quoting anybody outside the Bible isn’t going to cut it. Quotes from “popes” isn’t going to, either.

We apparently have a different faith, kujo, and maybe it is as well that we agree to disagree? Jesus is the foundation of our faith, and the Gospel that He preached was entirely effective and complete before any of it was ever written. Since you are using another source as the Foundation of your faith, we will probably never come to agreement.

 

[guanophore]

And in a way that you don’t have to actually think about and can simply regurgitate without having to engage your critical faculties.

LilyM, you are making assumptions. I do not think it is appropriate to assume that the plagarizing poster to whom you are referring HAS any critical faculties!

 

[guanophore]

Actually, sometimes my prayers beging with “Lord, Your word says…”
Some people in your own threads would disagree with you. Some here say that Jesus founded the roman church. The first “church” was called Christians.

This is a form that I was taught in the Assembly of God church also. The Rosary just leaves off the words “Lord, your word says…” and starts right out quoting the scripture. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” I guess I don’t understand why you are so offended with this, when you are not offended by the use of other scriptures in prayer.

Yes, Jesus founded the Church. There is only one Church. One Body of Christ. Jesus did not say “upon this rock I will build my Churches”. One Faith, one Spirit, One Baptism. One Head, who is Christ. Yes, the believers were first call Christians in Antioch. By the early second century, they were called catholic.

 

[guanophore]

This is simply the worst forum for learning or teaching anything that I have ever encounted.

This experience is common to everyone who comes here to try to convert Catholics.

Very stubborn people trying to make God knows what point. Who can keep up with it, with so many things being discussed. The original question posed to me was to give three reasons why I am not a Catholic yet.

I appreciate your participation, Lively Stone. Yes, it is very fast paced, and can be very confusing. I think this particular thread got way off topic.

I believe I shared some very good History complete with referances. I didn"t just shoot it off the top of my head.

Thanks for that. That was all new to me.

I believe that anyone that reads these books will find an absolute new love for the word of God which I believe is where everyone should be seaching for the truth,

I think this premise is where you “hit the wall” in here, so to speak. Catholics believe that Jeuss is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. We believe that He has imparted the revelation of His truth to us through the Apostles, to whom he explained EVERYTHING. Not all of those teachings have been written down. In any case, the scripture was never intended to be separated from the Sacred Tradition from which it was brough forth.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Without the word of God man cannot see his degenerated, appalling sinful condition. If not for the blood of Jesus God would have had to destroy all us and even with the Blood of Jesus we are all just filthy rags. God sees us through the blood of Jesus. We are made clean by the washing of water by the word.

Catholics believe this, except that we believe that Jesus, through His teaching and preaching, allowed mankind to see their appalling sinful condition. We also believe He passed this teaching authority on to His Apostles, and that their preaching was 100% effective as well. All this happened before a single line of the NT was written.

 

[guanophore]

 Eph 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Know any churches like that. I don’t. If we are ever going to have one to present to Jesus as His Bride we better start studing his word and clean up our act and quit worshiping churchs, and realize what Paul said above.

Catholics don’t worship a “church” Lively. We worship Christ, whose Church it is. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to cleanse and present the Bride, not yours. It is not your job to iron out the wrinkles of others, no matter how fatal you think our wrinkles may be. By the way, the Catholic Church has always taught, as Jesus and His Apostles did, that washing occurs at baptism, and that Jesus commands water baptism.

 It is a crying shame that anyone would believe that anything other than the Cross of Jesus could get them to heaven. That includes a church, a man, saints, angels or anything else.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

**Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. **

I that case, do not despair that you have not been able to cleanse all of us with the washing of the water and the word, since that is up to Him to do!

We individually work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Perhaps this is another difference between us, Lively. Catholics believe that we are members of a Body, and each of us members one of another. As such, we must work together in our salvation.

As I said before it is most difficult to stay in the spirit on this forum as most of the members do not make scriptual arguments. That puts us non Catholics in the position of not having anything edifying to offer because scripture is our final authority and our objective standand with which to measure any matter pertaining to God the Father the Holy Spirit and the only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

I think there is plenty to offer, Lively, and it is possible to contribute here. It will not be possible to convert a Catholic on here who is firm in their faith, because such a one will know that their faith is all based in the person of Jesus, and the church teaching consistent with the Holy Scriptures.

I would like a truthful answer from members of this forum.

1. What is the purpose of this forum for Catholics?
2. Why would you want non Catholics here knowing that we agree on so little?

I came here to learn how to have productive dialogue with people like yourself, and to learn more about my faith.

I was a non-Catholic for a long time. If there was a forum like this, it would not have taken me so long to find my way.

 

[guanophore]

Ignatius learned from the Apostle John himself - so if you’re suggesting you know more (or even as much) about the matter than he did you are SERIOUSLY deluded.

Calm down LilyM! kujo may never have even heard of the Early Church Fathers, much less read them! Of course he thinks he knows as much or more! His bible is telling him “you have the mind of Christ”.

 

[LilyM]

This is a form that I was taught in the Assembly of God church also. The Rosary just leaves off the words “Lord, your word says…” and starts right out quoting the scripture. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” I guess I don’t understand why you are so offended with this, when you are not offended by the use of other scriptures in prayer.

Yes, Jesus founded the Church. There is only one Church. One Body of Christ. Jesus did not say “upon this rock I will build my Churches”. One Faith, one Spirit, One Baptism. One Head, who is Christ. Yes, the believers were first call Christians in Antioch. By the early second century, they were called catholic.

Much earlier - there are places in Acts (I think there’s one in chapter 9) and the Epistles which refer to the ‘universal’ or catholic Church, although they don’t state that catholic was used as a name.

 

[guanophore]

1. teaching that the church can not err. (if this is so, why did john
   paul 11 apologize for the inquisition, among other contradictions)

Because, although the Church did not teach error, she recognizes that she is responsible in some measure for the errors of her members. Those persons calling themselves Catholic, and acting in the name of Catholicism, have perpetrated all manner of evils. A public acknowledgement of the wrongness is a great step toward healing, and lets everyone know that the Church does not condone the wrongdoing of her wayward clerics.

1. although the official teaching is that mary is venerated and honored, but not adored and worshiped, she is both adored and worshiped by many catholics with no reproof.

I strongly suggest that, if you find anyone doing this, you reprove them at once! I have never witnessed this, so I cannot really be in a position to correct them.

1. scholastic philosophy and its reliance on human reason to explain (or try to explain) the things of god, and the codifying of such reasonings as dogma and canon law.

Why is this problematic?

Thanks for your response.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

kujo:

The Roman magisterium refuses to be held accountable and to be examined in the light of God’s Word!

Kujo:

1. God’s Word is not Scripture. Whoever told you that it was? God’s Word is something infinitely more personal. It is Jesus Himself.

See Logos.

1. You put inappropriate emphasis on the Bible. Before the invention of the Gutenburg Press, bibles were handwritten and far too expensive for the common people to buy. Also over 90% of the Church was illiterate. Moreover, their grasp of Latin was sufficient only for following the prayers at Mass and not sufficient for studying scripture. Are you saying that Jesus overlooked the poor, the illiterate, the non-leisure class, the non-clergy?

 

[guanophore]

Recently

• The Vatican declared that they signs of somebody demon possessed was that they speak in tongues and that they have great strength.
  (I guess that the apostles at Pentecost and Paul was “demon possessed”. Also, I guess Samson was, too.)

Do you not agree that demons can speak in tongues, and that they give people great strength?

Finally, if the catholic church put the Bible together, why not add those books that lifted up Mary? Why not mention those books who honored her more than the books in the Bible?

It is not “IF” kujo. the Catholic Church did assemble and promulgate the canon. Why were some books not included? Because the Church did this under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the HS did not want those books in the canon. There are many valuable writings that have survived from the early fathers. There are also some Apostolic writings that appear to have been lost.

What is written is all that we need to know because the center of our focus should be on Christ: the ONLY One who fulfills all the Law and the Prophets. The Alpa and Omega.

I think you are right, kujo. You obviously are already overwhelmed just trying to understand the text. It would not be wise for you to add the early fathers to your studies.

 

[guanophore]

If God can speak through a donkey and a burning bush; If God can speak from a cloud; if God can make sons of Abraham from stones; If God can speak this whole universe into existance; etc…

then WHY can’t God come as a fully-human, sinless baby through a woman who’s a sinner and needs a Savior like all the rest of us? That’s a miracle by itself.
God does not NEED or DEPEND on us for anything.

He does not “need” us, but he has chosen to depend upon us. we are his feet, His hands, His voice in the world. The Teachings of the Apostles are that Mary was conceived without sin. That is how God chose to do it. I can’t say I understand it either, frankly, the proposal you make seems like it would work the same way.

However, there are many things that I do not understand, for example, why did Jesus not replace Judas after His resurrection?

Rev 3:21-22

21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

This is exactly why Catholics say that Mary is our life and our hope. She has overcome, and is sitting down with the Father.
She has demonstrated what can be for all of us.
kujo313;2224969:

It seems that your “church” is not listening to the Spirit.

I understand that it seems that way to you, kujo. But why do you think whacking us over the head with your hostility will make us hear better?

 

[smolderingwick]

PUrgatory is not mentioned by that name in the Scriptures but the concept of a place of purging of our sins is… 1 Cor. 3:13- , Matthew 12:32 (forgiveness in the “next age”), Matt . 18:23, etc…

I will never get used to this line of thinking.
Purgatory is not mentioned in scripture because it is not true.
The book of Revelation says we wil be judged for our sins at the white throne judgement, There would be no need for this judgement if our sins are already purged.

 

[kujo313]

Calm down LilyM! kujo may never have even heard of the Early Church Fathers, much less read them! Of course he thinks he knows as much or more! His bible is telling him “you have the mind of Christ”.

The sixteenth century Reformation was responsible for restoring to the Church the principle of sola Scriptura, a principle that had been operative within the Church from the very beginning of the post apostolic age.

Initially the apostles taught orally, but with the close of the apostolic age, all special revelation that God wanted preserved for man was codified in the written Scriptures. Sola Scriptura is the teaching, founded on the Scriptures themselves, that there is only one special revelation from God that man possesses today, the written Scriptures or the Bible.

The Council of Trent in the 16th century declared that the revelation of God was not contained solely in the Scriptures. It declared that it was contained partly in the written Scriptures and partly in oral tradition and, therefore, the Scriptures were not materially sufficient.

This was the universal view of Roman Catholic theologians for centuries after the Council of Trent. It is interesting to note, however, that in Roman Catholic circles today there is an ongoing debate among theologians on the nature of Tradition. There is no clear understanding of what Tradition is in Roman Catholicism today. Some agree with Trent and some do not.

The Early Church Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, the Didache, and Barnabus) taught doctrine and defended Christianity against heresies. In doing this, their sole appeal for authority was Scripture. Their writings literally breathe with the spirit of the Old and New Testaments. In the writings of the apologists such as Justin martyr and Athenagoras the same thing is found. There is no appeal in any of these writings, to the authority of Tradition as a separate and independent body of revelation.

Irenaeus:

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (the bishop of Jerusalem in the mid 4th century).
“This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures.”

Irenaeus: He knew Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. He lived from c 130 to 202 AD. He quotes from twenty-four of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament, taking over 1,800 quotations from the New Testament alone.

Clement of Alexandria: He lived from 150 to 215 AD. He cites all the New Testament, books except Philemon, James and 2 Peter. He gives 2,400 citations from the New Testament.

Tertullian: He lived from 160 to 220 AD. He makes over 7,200 New Testament citations.

Origen: He lived from 185 to 254 AD. He succeeded Clement of Alexandria at the Catechetical school at Alexandria. He makes nearly 18,000 New Testament citations.

By the end of the 3rd century, virtually the entire New Testament could be reconstructed from the writings of the Church Fathers.

 

[kujo313]

Also over 90% of the Church was illiterate. Moreover, their grasp of Latin was sufficient only for following the prayers at Mass and not sufficient for studying scripture. Are you saying that Jesus overlooked the poor, the illiterate, the non-leisure class, the non-clergy?

Therefore, the catholic religion could teach what they wanted and nobody could look it up for themselves. The rcc did not want the Bible translated into other languages in fear of losing control of the people.
It may be true that 90% of the “church” was illiterate… in Latin. In studying Scripture, the Reformation was about using Scripture alone.

 

[kujo313]

Kujo:

1. God’s Word is not Scripture.
   QUOTE]

Scripture IS God’s Word.

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” John 10:27.

The term “sola Scriptura” or “the Bible alone” is a short phrase that represents the simple truth that there is only one special revelation from God that man possesses today, the written Scriptures or the Bible. Scripture states this concept repeatedly and emphatically. The very phrase “It is written” means exclusively transcribed, and not hearsay. The command to believe what is written means to believe only the pure word of God. What is at stake before the All Holy God is His incorruptible truth.

In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word.

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”
—Revelation 22:18-19

His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself (Psalm 119:160).

The Biblical message breathed out by God is revelation in written form. (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The Biblical claim is that what God has inspired was His written word (2 Peter 1:20-21). When the Lord Jesus Christ said, “the Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35), He was speaking of God’s written word. The events, actions, commandments, and truths from God are given to us in propositional form, i.e. logical, written sentences. God’s declaration in Scripture is that it and it alone, is this final authority in all matters of faith and morals.

Thus, there is only one written source from God, and there is only one basis of truth for the Lord’s people in the Church.

Affirmed By Jesus Christ

The Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, identified truth with the written Word. In His great, high priestly prayer, He said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” This was consistent with the declarations right through the Old Testament in which the Holy Spirit continually proclaims that the revelation from God is truth, as for example Psalm 119:142, “thy law is truth.” There is no source other than Scripture alone to which such a statement applies. That source alone, the Holy Scripture, is the believer’s standard of truth.

In the New Testament, it is the written word of God, and that alone, to which the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles refer as the final authority. In the temptation, the Lord Jesus three times resisted Satan, saying, “It is written” as for example, in Matthew 4:4, “he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” In stating “It is written,” the Lord used the exact same phrase that is used in the Holy Bible forty six times. The persistence of the repeated phrase underlines its importance. The Lord’s total acceptance of the authority of the Old Testament is evident in His words found in Matthew 5:17-18:

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.”
People often attempt to give human traditions higher authority than God’s Word. This was true of the Jews of Jesus’ day. In refuting the errors of the Sadducees, the Scripture records the Lord saying, “Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29). Christ Jesus continually castigated and rebuked the Pharisees because they made their traditions on a par with the Word of God—corrupting the very basis of truth by equating their traditions with God’s Word. So He declared to them in Mark 7:13 “You are making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such things do ye.” Since Scripture alone is inspired, it alone is the ultimate authority, and it alone is the final judge of Tradition.

The Word of the Lord says as a commandment in Proverbs 30:5-6:

“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

God commands that we are not to add to His Word: this command shows emphatically that it is God’s Word alone that is pure and uncontaminated.

Aligned with Proverbs, the Lord’s strong, clear declaration in Isaiah 8:20 is: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” The truth is this: since God’s written word alone is inspired, it and it alone is the sole rule of faith. It cannot be otherwise.