Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

The Church He Founded ??? On Peter ? that is the most derelict display of improper Biblical hermeneutics I have seen and it has led many down the wrong road. Context ypou need context, it was the confession of Peter of Christ the Messiah that is the foundation not Peter. 1Corinthians 3:11 Mark 12:10,
Matthew 21:42-44 1Peter 2:1-8

The longer you are posting the less I am impressed by your Christian witness - seriously.

You are incorrect. Christ founded His Church on Peter.

Peter is the Rock.

Look at the derelict display of improper Biblical hermeneutics by Protestants quoted in this article:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801word.asp

“The Attempt to Whitewash Peter’s Papacy”

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0002fea2.asp

"No two ways about it. Peter is the rock. "

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9811chap.asp

By the way, it’s common courtesy to start new threads for each topic. Or are you just trying to throw out as much as you can in hopes of distracting everyone from the fact that you have not answered with any substance to my evidence that the Catholic Church does not teach anything contradictory to scripture and is also the Church founded by Christ?

 

[AlegreFe]

JesusHasMyHeart:

I know what it means to be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and have deep communion with God and fullfill His will for my life and have assurance of Salvation, and knowing I am complete in Christ and His sacrifice for all my sins. It really doesn’t get any better then that honestly.
Even the very devout Catholics that i know, don’t seem to have that personal relationship and closeness with Jesus that I see alot of Christians have.

Do you know that you were born again when you were baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church? And I’m glad you feel that you have a deep communion with God. We should all have that. But it doesn’t really FEEL like anything. Our feelings have nothing to do with having Christ in our hearts. Sometimes He gives us that “feeling” as a kind of gift for us. But no matter what we “feel” we still have Jesus Christ on our side. Having Jesus does not depend on my feelings but on my faith. I walk by faith and not by sight.

Being presumptuous of your salvation is not good, not good at all. I take it you believe in the doctrine of “Sola Fide.” Well no where in the bible does it teach that doctrine.

As far as those “devout Catholics” that you know, well they really don’t know their faith if they feel they don’t have a personal relationship with Christ. You can’t get any closer than having the Eucharist; the Greatest Gift given to us by God!

I’m sorry to say this but I do get angry. I get angry at how Catholics don’t know their faith and they walk away because they don’t know. They walk away out of pure ignorance. I don’t get angry at the person. I guess you could say that I get angry at how things are run in some Catholic Schools and churches that have an education department. I wish CCD classes were run better. I wish that more churches would have Catholic Bible studies. There are many churches that have that but it’s not enough churches.

I belong to a couple of Protestant message boards so that I can spread the word. I want everyone to know God in the way that I know Him. I want everyone to HAVE Jesus Christ the way that I have Him; not the way that you think either because you don’t have Him in that way, the way that I do. Yes I have Him Spiritually also but I have Him in a way that you don’t; Substantially.

Why are you here? I hope it’s because you are not sure that what you are doing is right or complete. I will say a prayer for you and hope that you come to see the Light. You do have some Truths in your faith but you don’t have the FULLNESS of Truth. I just want you to experience the Fullness of our Catholic Faith.

Please don’t let whoever filled your head, fill it with more lies. They don’t even know they are doing that. For they are also ignorant to the Catholic Faith.

Please if you ever drive by a Catholic Church, stop inside if it is open. If it’s not open, just park in the parking lot and pray right there. Jesus is present in the Tabernacle of that Catholic Church. Just ask Jesus if that is really Him. Then be still and listen with your heart. He is there. Trust in Jesus, it is Him and He loves you and He is waiting for you.
God Bless you.

 

[JesusHasMyHeart]

Eden:

Did you know relics are in the Bible?

Relics

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ’s cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

They didn’t take Christs hem and make it into a shrine though
And Jesus didn’t encourage them to or command them to

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul’s handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Yes these things caused a release of faith in the people, but the people were not to worship the handkerchiefs, or have people pay to touch them or observe them.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

*So you admit that this practice of bowing down to statues is justified because peolpe were healed by Peters shadow ? It wasn’t the things that healed, it was God.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

The souls of some of the martyrs are the ones who died at the hands of the Roman Church.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha’s bones bring a man back to life. The saints’ bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age. Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them. Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them).

Protestants miss the meaning of these passages in their Bible studies because they are not familiar with relics.

Oh I am very familiar with relics, and had a shrine to Mary in my room and Rosary beads, and i know what was taught about these things very clearly and i followed the example of my mother and grandmother who vainly repeated these prayers while looking at Mary. We were never warned as Catholics not to look at the statues as a statue, but a real entity, a living being.
I know Ive been there, and this is wrong and contrary to scripture.

In your history I know the Catholic Church used to charge people to come see the display of relics and get a blessing, you have confirmed your corrupt history. To generate wealth off of the poor. It doesn’t get anymore unholy then that.

John 8:31-32 The truth shall set you free.

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

You better do a little more study of the history of the church you so vehemently defend and claim as descended from Peter.
The church I belong to is the Body of Christ, with Christ as the cheif cornerstone, We don’t follow His followers, but we follow Christ as He commanded, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men. Take up your cross and follow Me.Jesus said

Apparently you are under the impression that this is the first time I have read anything you have posted here. As you can see from the number of posts I have made and the fact that I have been here a year, I must tell you that you have not posted one idea that has not been said here before.** Not one**. In fact, you have followed the same pattern that most Prostants do:

1. Post about how joyful you are that you now have a personal relationship with Christ - since you left the Church, say that you feel sympathy that we do not know how wonderful it feels “to really know Jesus”, mention that you don’t see the deep relationship with Christ in the Catholics you know, vaguely pass judgment on their status as a Christian and/or whether or not they are saved and mention that the Holy Spirit has shown you the light
2. Start out with statements about the papacy, Mary, idolatry, tradition (this is not a comprehensive list, just an example)
3. Avoid naming the particular brand of Christianity you have joined
4. Ignore all posts refuting your accusations and post new ones instead as a distraction
5. Ignore all posts refuting your accusations and post new ones as a distraction - this time citing indulgences, corrupt popes, the inquisition and other “big guns”
6. Accuse the Catholic responding of being “uncharitable” and/or influenced by the devil and ignore all posts refuting your accusations
7. Move into a personal story about how you were personally wronged in some way by the Church, from which we are all to conclude the Church cannot be that which was founded by Christ
8. Sometimes this then procedes into something about Hitler or the Nazis

(Words draaaaaged out for emphasis are optional.)

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

The body of Christ are those who truly know Christ personally 24/7

We can receive Him in the Eucharist 24/7 365. It doesn’t get any better than that.

and of course their is going to be a few bad apples or unconverted or seekers entering any church door, some immature Christian might look at them and think, is that what a Christian is ?

True of the Church, agreed.

But even though we go to different parts of the body of Christ,

Why? Why do you go to “different parts of the body”? Is that what Christ intended?

we have sweet fellowship one with another, because we all do need one another.

Again, how is this not true of the Church?

I’m saved according to the word of God and my relationship with Him personally even though I don’t go to the Catholic church,

One cannot be assured of personal salvation until the end. One does not “accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior”, say the Sinner’s prayer and bingo! you go to heaven. Where do you see that in the Bible? My Bible says St. Paul is working on his salvation in “fear and trembling”. My Bible says Christ can blot a believer out of the “book of life”.

 

[Eden]

Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 -** we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die**. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe.** By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God**.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. **This “drawing” is an ongoing process. **

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus. Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

 

[JesusHasMyHeart]

AlegreFe:

Do you know that you were born again when you were baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church? And I’m glad you feel that you have a deep communion with God. We should all have that. But it doesn’t really FEEL like anything. Our feelings have nothing to do with having Christ in our hearts. Sometimes He gives us that “feeling” as a kind of gift for us. But no matter what we “feel” we still have Jesus Christ on our side. Having Jesus does not depend on my feelings but on my faith. I walk by faith and not by sight.

Being presumptuous of your salvation is not good, not good at all. I take it you believe in the doctrine of “Sola Fide.” Well no where in the bible does it teach that doctrine.

As far as those “devout Catholics” that you know, well they really don’t know their faith if they feel they don’t have a personal relationship with Christ. You can’t get any closer than having the Eucharist; the Greatest Gift given to us by God!

I’m sorry to say this but I do get angry. I get angry at how Catholics don’t know their faith and they walk away because they don’t know. They walk away out of pure ignorance. I don’t get angry at the person. I guess you could say that I get angry at how things are run in some Catholic Schools and churches that have an education department. I wish CCD classes were run better. I wish that more churches would have Catholic Bible studies. There are many churches that have that but it’s not enough churches.

I belong to a couple of Protestant message boards so that I can spread the word. I want everyone to know God in the way that I know Him. I want everyone to HAVE Jesus Christ the way that I have Him; not the way that you think either because you don’t have Him in that way, the way that I do. Yes I have Him Spiritually also but I have Him in a way that you don’t; Substantially.

Why are you here? I hope it’s because you are not sure that what you are doing is right or complete. I will say a prayer for you and hope that you come to see the Light. You do have some Truths in your faith but you don’t have the FULLNESS of Truth. I just want you to experience the Fullness of our Catholic Faith.

Please don’t let whoever filled your head, fill it with more lies. They don’t even know they are doing that. For they are also ignorant to the Catholic Faith.

Please if you ever drive by a Catholic Church, stop inside if it is open. If it’s not open, just park in the parking lot and pray right there. Jesus is present in the Tabernacle of that Catholic Church. Just ask Jesus if that is really Him. Then be still and listen with your heart. He is there. Trust in Jesus, it is Him and He loves you and He is waiting for you.
God Bless you.

How old was Jesus when He was baptized ? Read Matthew3
Now He was dedicated by Simeon at the temple as a Child, but not baptized. It must be an act of ones heart and will to choose, not infant baptism.

Jesus is present everywhere I go, I don’t need to go to a building, He is as close as the air i breathe. He is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient.

Its pretty arrogant of you to pretend that I have fallen away from faith, I have done the above,25 years ago, and my relationship with Him is much closer and stronger now then it has ever been as a catholic, or any of my so called strong Catholic relatives and friends whom I love dearly, but there faith isn’t #1 in there life, they all still do things that I know are displeasing to the Lord and go to church every Sunday and put in there quota for the week. But live as though Jesus isn’t Lord of ALL their life, 24/7.

I make it a habbit to go into the Calif. missions when I travel, I love the history, but don’t sense the Holy Spirit life, Ive even gone back to my old Catholic church once in a while and am reminded how dead it is, everyone prays w/ there eyes open, barely anyone participates in worship. and it is all memorized with no deep meaning. They even sing songs at the youth mass that were written by people from my church. The Holy Spirit, Lord and giver of life is missing. My Catholic friends are worldly, when Jesus told us to be in the world but not of it in John 17 when He prayed for us, His true believers.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Jesus has my Heart,

You sure are full of the same ol Protestant cliches about the Catholic church. Question, are you a Mormon? Cause the way you talk about how the Church was corrupt from the beginning sure sounds like the Apostasy Theory they put forth. Jesus tells Peter he is the Rock and upon that rock he will build his Church (not Churches) and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Yet within 100 years everything has gone to hell in a handbasket? Except until 300 years later when the Catholic Church gets together and despite being wrong on having lost their salvation for 3 centuries manages to piece together a New Testament that Protestants and Catholics believe is inerrant…Then they go back to their Pagan ways until 1100 years later when God sent his Prophet Luther to right the wrongs of the last 1500 years making a lier out of Christ in the process for saying that the church would not fall into apostasy ?

By the way how do Protestants ever confuse You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church, for You are Peter and on the confesion of me being the saviour I will build my church?

Don’t tell me about the Greek forms of Rock, Christ didn’t speak Greek he spoke aramaic and there is only one word used at the time for Rock. Besides I believe Matthew wasn’t written in Greek originally was it?

 

[Eden]

I don’t follow the teachings and doctrines of man

Don’t you? Does your church teaches that contraception is O.K.?
Does your church teach “Bible Only”? “Once Saved, Always Saved”? The Body and Blood are symbolic? These are all traditions of men. What denomination did you join when you left the Church?

Catholic Sacred Tradition is not of “men” as spoken about in the Bible, it is of God. You deny that some teachings from Christ and the apostles remained oral and were not included in the Bible. I’m telling you that is false - even the Bible illustrates oral tradition. Where does it say oral tradition from Christ and the apostles must cease when the Canon is set. Not everything that was taught is in the Bible.

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

I’ve been where you are, I know what its all about, and I see through it also, and see the deception of that which you follow.

I’ve been prosthelytized by Protestants… but I didn’t fall for their deceptions.

Its sad that you reduced Jesus to a piece of bread, the eucharist, almost to the point of idolatry, actually… it is idolatry.
Paul said, my children keep yourselves from idols.

Really? Idolatry? I didn’t know that worshipping Jesus is idolatry. Because, obviously, if Christ is present in Body and Blood in the Eucharist - it’s not bread. Isn’t this obvious? “Reducing Jesus to a piece of bread”? This is a beautiful gift He has given us and you reject Him in the Eucharist. That is sad.

The Truth about the Eucharist:

www.therealpresence.org

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

JesusHasMyHeart:

How old was Jesus when He was baptized ? Read Matthew3
Now He was dedicated by Simeon at the temple as a Child, but not baptized. It must be an act of ones heart and will to choose, not infant baptism.
.

How old was Jesus when he was circumcized? The new testement covenant replaced the old covenant. Why would this one never include children when the old one did?

In luke didn’t Jesus heal a parapaligic man because of the faith of his friends? Why can a parent not have faith for a child? They did since God made his covennant with Abraham and he and his ENTIRE household were circumsized.

Heck God was about to kill Moses because he had not circumsized his son. God takes his covenants very seriously and they do and always have included children.

Jesus didn’t start preaching until he was 30, does that mean that we should keep quiet until then as well?

 

[Eden]

*Oh I am very familiar with relics, and had a shrine to Mary in my room and Rosary beads, and i know what was taught about these things very clearly and i followed the example of my mother and grandmother who vainly repeated these prayers while looking at Mary.

How devastating that must be for your mother and grandmother to see you knowingly reject the Church. This is very sad to me, given my own example by my mother and grandmother. My grandmother is a great witness to the faith. Truly a “saint” in the making.

But moving on - the Blessed Virgin Mary “Generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:48). Do you ignore this part of scripture now, too?

If you were praying with “vain repetition” that is your fault, not a defect with the rosary!

It seems you do not understand what “vain and repetitious prayer” means:

Matt. 6:7 - Jesus teaches, “do not heap up empty phrases” in prayer. Protestants use this verse to criticize various Catholic forms of prayer which repeat phrases, such as litanies and the Rosary. But Jesus’ focus in this instruction is on the “vain,” and not on the "repetition."

Matt. 26:44 - for example, Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It’s the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words.

Luke 18:13 - the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” This repetitive prayer was pleasing to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart.

Acts 10:2,4 - Cornelius prayed constantly to the Lord and his prayers ascended as a memorial before God.

Rom. 1:9 - Paul says that he always mentions the Romans in his prayers without ceasing.

Rom. 12:12 - Paul commands us to be constant in prayer. God looks at what is in our heart, not necessarily how we choose our words.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul commands us to pray constantly. Good repetition is different than vain repetition.

Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.” This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God.

Psalm 136 - in this Psalm, the phrase “For His steadfast love endures forever” is more repetitious than any Catholic prayer, and it is God’s divine Word. Dan. 3:35-66 - the phrase “Bless the Lord” is similarly offered repeatedly, and mirrors Catholic litanies.

 

[JesusHasMyHeart]

Alegra,

Have you read Romans 8, that is my life chapter. Only Satan condemns and is called the accuser of the brethren, but I am in Christ, and i have been in your shoes, but you have not been in mine. Im sending this with a prayer that the Holy Spirit would show you the truth, and soften your heart.

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

We were never warned as Catholics not to look at the statues as a statue, but a real entity, a living being.
I know Ive been there, and this is wrong and contrary to scripture.*

Looking at statues is contrary to scripture? I hope you haven’t been to Mt. Rushmore or the Lincoln Memorial. :bigyikes:

Does God tell His people to build but not to look at the Golden Cherubim? Can you tell me about that?

Can’t look at statues?

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Is this not the inerrant Word of God? Yet you say we cannot look at statues? Who is contradicting the Word of God here? It looks like it’s you.

Images and Statues

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches. Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

"Do Catholics Worship Statues?" Read and find out:

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

We were never warned as Catholics not to look at the statues as a statue, but a real entity, a living being.
I know Ive been there, and this is wrong and contrary to scripture.*

Oh, I see. My mistake. You were never warned not to look at statues as a living being. But isn’t it obvious that a statue is not alive? Why would we need to be warned about that?

Or, maybe it’s not obvious? I’ve seen strollers which say, “Do not fold while child is still in the stroller”. Maybe a disclaimer would be in order, just in case.

In any event, the Church does not teach that statues are living beings so why are you making this an issue?

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

John 8:31-32 The truth shall set you free.

The Truth is fully present in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and His Bride does not teach error.

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

How old was Jesus when He was baptized ? Read Matthew3
Now He was dedicated by Simeon at the temple as a Child, but not baptized. It must be an act of ones heart and will to choose, not infant baptism.

“Dedicated”? Oh, so you are Baptist? You are wrong that infant baptism is not biblical. Some of the early Church Fathers were baptised as infants. And here in scriptures it says:

Infant Baptism

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer’s baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, “Repent and be baptized…” Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” **(“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse. **

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). **God’s covenant family includes children. The word “children” that Peter used comes from the Greek **word “teknon” which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - this proves that “teknon” includes infants. Here, John as a “teknon” (infant) was circumcised. **See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults. **

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter** baptized the entire house** of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word **“oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. **

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

 

[Eden]

(Infant baptism is biblical - cont’d)

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church’s practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a “believer’s baptism” requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby.** But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years). **

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies’ souls are affected by Adam’s sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. **From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God’s Covenant kingdom. **

1 Cor. 1:16 - **Paul baptized the household (“oikos”) of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults. **

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the “saints” of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic’s sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another’s faith, just like infant baptism. **The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents’ faith. **

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion’s faith. This is another example of healing based on another’s faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child’s unclean spirit based on the father’s faith. This healing is again based on another’s faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – **Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents. **

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent’s faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died. Joshua 5:2-7 - **God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent’s faith. The parents play a critical role in their child’s salvation. **

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

Jesus is present everywhere I go, I don’t need to go to a building, He is as close as the air i breathe. He is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient.

Yes. We can encounter Jesus anywhere. We don’t have to go into a church. But why wouldn’t we want to?

 

[Eden]

JesusHasMyHeart:

Have you read Romans 8, that is my life chapter. Only Satan condemns and is called the accuser of the brethren, but I am in Christ

Juxtaposed with

JesusHasMyHeart:

and my relationship with Him is much closer and stronger now then it has ever been as a catholic, or any of my so called strong Catholic relatives and friends whom I love dearly, but there faith isn’t #1 in there life, they all still do things that I know are displeasing to the Lord and go to church every Sunday and put in there quota for the week. But live as though Jesus isn’t Lord of ALL their life, 24/7.

Hmm.

Again:

JesusHasMyHeart:

Have you read Romans 8, that is my life chapter. Only Satan condemns and is called the accuser of the brethren, but I am in Christ

Now juxtaposed with:

JesusHasMyHeart:

I make it a habbit to go into the Calif. missions when I travel, I love the history, but don’t sense the Holy Spirit life, Ive even gone back to my old Catholic church once in a while and am reminded how dead it is, everyone prays w/ there eyes open, barely anyone participates in worship.** and it is all memorized with no deep meaning**. They even sing songs at the youth mass that were written by people from my church. The Holy Spirit, Lord and giver of life is missing. My Catholic friends are worldly, when Jesus told us to be in the world but not of it in John 17 when He prayed for us, His true believers.

Hmm and hmm and hmm.

Looks like a lot of condemning and accusing going on here by you, JesusHasMyHeart. Is this kind of cruel indictment of your family and friends what they are teaching you at your new Baptist church?

Can I mention that you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time observing what these “pathetic” Catholics are doing - particularly in church - instead of being mindful of God? Going into a Catholic church and spending the whole time critiquing those around you? How could you feel the Holy Spirit there? You were too busy *judging *everyone around you because you think you are so superior to these poor, pathetic people now. Wow. Doesn’t sound like Jesus to me.

For shame! :nope: