Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

[JSmitty2005]

mesher:

so if Mary is sinless, meaning she doesn’t need salvation thus do not need Christ…Mary being ever virgin…

Try this:

fisheaters.com/mary.html

As well as this:

salvationhistory.com//online/intermediate/intermedcourse2_home.cfm

You may also want to get a free book about Mary here:

amm.org/chss.htm

 

[JoshuaJ]

If it is true that we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace then how could anyone before His death be free from sin?

 

[Shiann]

JoshuaJ:

If it is true that we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace then how could anyone before His death be free from sin?

Because His Sacrifice is timeless. It was for all who have lived, and for all who will live until the end of time.

Otherwise all who had lived and died prior to Jesus coming to Earth in His human form would be lost. But we know that isn’t true, right?

 

[JSmitty2005]

JoshuaJ:

If it is true that we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace then how could anyone before His death be free from sin?

Time does not exist for God so there is no “before.” If you think that God is contrained by time then how can we be saved by Christ’s grace today?

 

[JoshuaJ]

The point I’m trying to make is if his redemption was available before He came in the flesh and died on the cross, why 1Peter 3:19 “by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient …”

Why would he have to preach to those who died before he made the ultimate sacrifice?

 

[JSmitty2005]

JoshuaJ:

The point I’m trying to make is if his redemption was available before He came in the flesh and died on the cross, why 1Peter 3:19 “by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient …”

Why would he have to preach to those who died before he made the ultimate sacrifice?

Hmmm, that prison sounds an awful lot like Purgatory. But that’s for another thread. This passage does not have anything to do with Mary being prevented from receiving Original Sin from her parents. She was a unique case. She was chosen by God. You can’t apply the normative means of redemption to the most blessed of all women. The Immaculate Conception is extraordinary. None of those spirits in prison was the virginal Mother of God. His redemption was not normatively available to those before He came. Mary is the exception because it was a unique case in which God Himself specifically interceded. Anyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Shiann]

JoshuaJ:

The point I’m trying to make is if his redemption was available before He came in the flesh and died on the cross, why 1Peter 3:19 “by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient …”

Why would he have to preach to those who died before he made the ultimate sacrifice?

There is a place outside of the beatific vision where those who died prior to Christ’s Ascention, awaited His Coming. That place was called Limbus Patrum or Limbo of the Fathers or Abraham’s Bosom.

Because all who are alive in Christ must hear the Word and accept it, he went there to offer the Word to them that they may join Him in the Beatific Vision of Heaven.

THIS IS NOT PURGATORY.

In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matt. 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matt. 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43).

St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory.

As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

Hope that helps

 

[JSmitty2005]

JSmitty2005:

Hmmm, that prison sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

Shiann:

THIS IS NOT PURGATORY.

I know what limbus patrum is and what it isn’t, but I’m glad you clarified for Josh. I was just trying to make the comparison because many non-Catholics claim that there are only 2 possible places that people go when they die. Obviously, that isn’t the case.

 

[JoshuaJ]

Shiann,

So were those that waited at Abraham’s Bosom until Christ’s blood was shed redeemed by his death on the cross?

 

[Shiann]

Of course.

 

[Shiann]

JSmitty2005:

I know what limbus patrum is and what it isn’t, but I’m glad you clarified for Josh. I was just trying to make the comparison because many non-Catholics claim that there are only 2 possible places that people go when they die. Obviously, that isn’t the case.

Well technically there is no need for Limbus Patrum the moment Christ opened the gates of Heaven. There is no need as the souls are able to have final judgement.

Purgatory itself is best left to another thread, but some might say it isn’t a place but a ‘state’ after the final judgment.

But your point is so noted. Thanks

 

[M_Oliver]

adrift:

That’s three

That’s absolutely nothing. It never ceases to amaze me how much blindness God has left on the “church” that claims it has the market on Christianity.

I point out clear and to the point Scripture that proves your belief is a lie and you come up with examples totally unrelated to the topic at hand and claim to have proven God wrong.

One other thing. Do you not know that the Kingdom of Heaven has not come yet and is not in Heaven???

Doubt it. You listen to men rather than God.

 

[LRThunder]

There is one teaching that seems to contradict Scripture: bishops being not married. In 1 Timothy 3, Paul talks about the importance of bishops being the husbands of one wife.

I looked this up in both a Protestant and Catholic Bible. The Protestant Bible indicated another word for bishop as elder.

 

[JSmitty2005]

LRThunder:

There is one teaching that seems to contradict Scripture: bishops being not married. In 1 Timothy 3, Paul talks about the importance of bishops being the husbands of one wife.

I looked this up in both a Protestant and Catholic Bible. The Protestant Bible indicated another word for bishop as elder.

Not true. This was addressing polygamy. It was not requiring marriage for bishops. It is only saying that IF they marry that they can only marry ONE wife.

 

[LRThunder]

JSmitty2005:

Not true. This was addressing polygamy. It was not requiring marriage for bishops.

OK, thanks. I guess I’m getting confused with my current church and what the other word my current Bible used for bishop…elder.

 

[JSmitty2005]

LRThunder:

OK, thanks. I guess I’m getting confused with my current church and what the other word my current Bible used for bishop…elder.

Anti-clericalism caused the Protestants to change the traditional word of “bishop” to “elder” to be as un-Catholic as possible.

 

[rciadan]

JoshuaJ:

MariaG,

Was John the Baptist sinless since he was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb?

John the Baptist may have not committed and actual sin, I don’t know. But he was not preserved from the stain of origional sin as was Mary.

 

[AlegreFe]

LRThunder:

There is one teaching that seems to contradict Scripture: bishops being not married. In 1 Timothy 3, Paul talks about the importance of bishops being the husbands of one wife.

I looked this up in both a Protestant and Catholic Bible. The Protestant Bible indicated another word for bishop as elder.

The way that I see it is that the “wife” is the Church and there is only ONE Church. The Priest marries his bride the Church and when he preaches and also says the Mass he bares spiritual children along with his bride the church. The Priest is called “Father” and the Church is called “Mother Church.”

 

[AlegreFe]

mrs_abbott:

No trumping was intended. I was simply looking for clarification because when I first read it, you seemed like you contradicted yourself. Now that you clarified, I understand your point.
You know your faith well, eh? Are you a member of the clergy or just a studious Catholic?

Sorry 'bout that. Your clarification is taken. I am a newly born Catholic. Well, I’m a cradle Catholic that is discovering her faith as best she can. I’m reading as much as possible. I knew a few things as a child but now that I look back, I knew more than I thought. I didn’t think I learned a lot as a Catholic student growing up. The most important thing for a Catholic to know and to believe is that Mary is my mother in heaven and she is Queen of Heaven. I loved the May crownings in school. The other is that Jesus is truly present in the most Blessed Sacrament. And that there is only one True Church and that is the Catholic Church. If a Catholic knows that, he/she is doing just fine.

However, it is unfortunate that there are so many Protestant denominations that we Catholics really have to know scripture really well so that we can evangelize these Protestants so that they can become ONE with us Catholics and ultimately ONE with God. I love my faith so much that I want to share with the whole world. I want for Protestants to receive Jesus the same way that I do. I would also love for Protestants to realize that they have a mother in heaven who will take care of them the way a mother would take care of all her children. Let Mary in Heaven intercede for you. Jesus will hear His mother and if it be God’s will, He will grant His mother whatever she asks. Just the way He did at the wedding at Cana when she told Jesus there was no more wine left.

 

[adrift]

That’s absolutely nothing. It never ceases to amaze me how much blindness God has left on the “church” that claims it has the market on Christianity.

You asked for a scripture that proves that the dead were in heaven. The promise of Jesus that the criminal hung beside him you claim is nothing. Who is blind?

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The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
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And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
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Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
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He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
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