Nasty God of the Hebrew Bible

[misericordia]

To josesiem, the long gone,

All disciplines, all knowledge, all wisdom and all truth are one. God is love, that’s the secret you’re looking for. One love, expressed in an infinity of creation.

Here we are on earth trying to break it down. But it all comes back to this.

Dr Michi Okaku at Harvard, the man who came up with ‘string theory’, postulates ‘one benevolent creator’, expressed as a wave or vibration.

String theory is the ‘equation for everything’ that Einstein tried to figure out. It is the bridge between quantum and classical physics, the difference between how things react in relation to each other in this world we see, of gravity, and the different laws that govern the very small, (neutrinos), and things in outer space.

What commonality do they have? A wave or vibration is a good beginning, maybe a good end.

 

[tm30]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic.

Evidently not. You begin this thread, and in the first sentence, lie about your purpose and origin. Great start!

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

I must have missed the Awards ceremony. How do you measure success, and what is a “big” question?

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament?

Only an extreme liberal would invoke George Bush in a negative portrayal of God. Your credibility continues to fall, as you pretend to be something you’re not.

Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment.

If you actually read the O.T., you would see that most of the torment you speak of is self-inflicted, and the natural consequence of disunity and lawlessness among the Israelites which made them susceptible to conquest, exile, etc. by more powerful and better disciplined nations. Because God didn’t swoop down and save them after they gave Him the finger doesn’t make Him a “meanie”, it makes them “thick headed” for ignoring His commandments.

What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again?

So, on the one hand, you portray God as an all-controlling despot, and now you’re upset that He gave us the free-will to reject Him. Which is it? Your argument is self-contradictory, and thus, not a valid argument.

Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

So you’d rather live in a world of robots? I don’t understand what His vastly superior intelligence has to do with your refusal to believe in Him. If God is really that awful, why hasn’t He struck you down yet?

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well.

Another self-contradicting statement. There’s no such thing as “supernatural” knowledge to you and me. If we could know it, it would be “natural” knowledge. Things that are “supernatural”, like the Incarnation, are, by definition, impossible for man to grasp in their entirety. We can only catch glimpses through what we can behold with our own senses and discursive reasoning.

Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality.

Who said God doesn’t reveal Truth to all human hearts? The Church teaches that the Natural Law is written on everyone’s heart. But since Buddhism ends in nihilism, i.e., anti-creation, we can be assured that it is not a Divinely inspired faith, since God’s purpose is to create and exist. People think that the Norse paganism that fueled Naziism displays incredible intelligence, as well. Thoughts on that?

In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago.

Satan has near-perfect intelligence, too. Unfortunately, his work isn’t inspired by God, either. But it’s very likely Satan inspired the craving for self-nihilism in Buddhist thought, at any rate.

One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

“And the Word became flesh”. Next question?

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world.

So you’re arguing from a context of what, by definition, must be 99% un-truth? How do you find Truth by that process?

Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

Sounds about right. But if one is open to grace, then faith follows. Are you open to grace or trying to fight the Creator with your human intellect?

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Your statement seems barbaric, angry.

I don’t believe you’re posting this because you’re “open to being convinced otherwise”. The language you employ and the line of “argument” indicates you’re solidly indoctrinated in an atheistic/agnostic view of religion.

 

[tm30]

You being a father I suppose you won’t kill your children if they disobey. Yet we accept this from the alleged creator of the universe.

As for the times when God was merciful – Gee, thanks, should be be thankful because God is sometimes merciful?!

Again, this (my inquiry) is coming from an agnostic perspective. You guys already have faith and will accept anything at this point. What do you say to someone to convince them that this dictator-like figure from the OT is the creator of the universe?

Why do you suppose God wasn’t being merciful when He destroyed them? They were worshipping demons like Baal and Moloch, after all. When the willing servants of Lucifer threaten to drag the innocent into hell with them, what do you think would be an appropriate response by a “merciful” God?

Not to mention, there’s no indication that God didn’t show them mercy and admit them into heaven in the name of their invincible ignorance. Sounds like a win-win to me.

 

[RobbyS]

I’m a faith-struggling Catholic. This is the first time I’m asking anyone these questions, because quite frankly I don’t think there’s a good answer, but here it goes:

Given the fact that there are so many competing truth claims in the world (Hinduism, Buddhisms, Islam, scientific materialism, etc.) which all more or less to some degree of success answer the big questions about our world and its meaning…

Why do we believe in the George Bush-like character of the Old Testament? Imagine the leader of a country like this god – it would look something like North Korea. Obey unquestionably. If you don’t, you’ll suffer every kind of torment. (Read Amos and Jeremiah) What kind of deity screws up creation so bad he has to destroy everyone (except Noah) and start over again? Is this really the vastly superior intelligence that’s responsible for the mind-boggling complexity of the universe?!

Why is there not ONE piece of supernatural knowledge presented in not just the OT but the NT as well. I’d expect this amazing intelligence to give us something beyond the rudimentary knowledge of 1000BC, but in fact, we cannot find anything supernaturally (or even naturally) intelligent in the OT. Compare this with the Buddhist scriptures which portray an incredible intelligence and understanding of human psychology and the nature of reality. In fact, many of the insights of Buddhism are being confirmed by neuroscience and cosmology today – from an Indian monk 2500 years ago. This is impressive and it’s not allegedly from the creator of the universe. One might expect the creator of the universe to offer something even more substantial than an uneducated monk 2500 years ago, but in fact we have nothing – or do we? That’s my question.

And keep in mind, it’s in the context of looking at all of the various truth claims around the world. Imagine a random clueless someone comes to Bible, reads it, and then has to make a decision: is this deity in the Bible really the supernatural creator of the universe?! He has to also decide this based on reading all of the other worldviews out there.

I’d think anybody not blinded my faith would answer that no, this barbaric, angry deity portrayed in the OT is not the creator of the universe, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.

Thank you.

First of all, what you say about buddhism is bunk. For the past two hundred years, since we came into immediate contact with Buddhism, westerners have bee reading forms of western philosophy into a faith that is a matter of practice, not reason. One does not think one’s way into “nirvana.” but follows the 8-fold path. There is no orthodoxy, only orthopraxis.

As far as the supposedly horrible Old Testament God, please understand that Scripture gives us a continuous revelation that ends with the revealtion of Jesus Christ. We are like children, who come from the womb, blinking in the light and crying for the comfort of the womb. Let us assume, for a minute, that the Pentaeuch represents the vision of Moses. It is true, but imperfect, like the baby’s initial view of his mother’s face. And growing up, the child only gradually understands WHO his mother is. much less his Father. It takes forever for us to learn who our paremts are. So the revelation of God in the Bible. We Christians believe that not until we meet Jesus, do we see the face of the Father. Our own personal spiritual journey is slow and made slower by the obstacles, but if we have a vision of Christ we are sustained, to the end. But for most of us, we do not see him as he really is until the VERY end.

 

[Ruthie]

Well, I think ol’ Jose is long gone by now. He (or she) revealed himself even further when he said, “You guys already have faith and will accept anything at this point.” That makes us sound like gullible fools.

God gave us reason for a purpose. I reasoned my way into the Catholic Church, thank you very much. Yes, I have to take some things on faith - but only until reason reveals them to me. A few I’ll have to leave until I meet Jesus face to face, but that’s OK.

Robby, you managed to sum up what I was slowly reaching for. I used to wonder if God was growing up during the OT, but now I know that it is His people that were doing the growing. We get revelation as we are ready for it - when our reasoning powers can handle it. (I suppose that’s why it took me so long to become Catholic.) This applies to peoples as well as persons.

God bless us all, even the gullible fools,

Ruthie

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Did you not reason yourself into this faith? Why would God give homo sapiens his greatest characteristic, reason, and then put all the emphasis on faith?

Why does God **demand **faith/belief? Why is it so important to Him?

I really don’t understand this insistence.

“Who does not see that knowledge precedes faith? Nobody believes unless he knows what to believe.” St. Augustine of Hippo

After that - God gives us the rest…all we need to do is accept it and act on it.

Ask any question you like - the Church has an answer for it. Use the Catechism found HERE and read the writings of the Church Fathers found HERE don’t rely so much on Apologists, or practice-apologists - people are human, and are prone to human failings. Rely instead on the Word of God, and His Church for the answers…if you really want to learn.

Peace

John

 

[redhen]

Thanks for the encouragement John. I was just reading The language of God by Francis Collins who was in charge of the Human Genome Project, and a Christian. He quoted St. Augustine’s commentary on Genesis as what should have been used as a model on how to deal with contrary scientific facts, i.e. Galileo.

I can’t find the exact passage online quickly, but I found something similar from catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9803fea3.asp

Augustine warned against a danger among Christians of his day and ours. If the Christian insists on a certain scientific theory as if it were the teaching of the Bible, and it turned out to be wrong, then the unbeliever will reject the Bible wholesale and miss the saving purpose God has in composing it. This danger is so real that Augustine emphasized it a number of times in his writings. Unreliable knowledge of nature is not damning but it can be a stumbling block “if he thinks his view of nature belongs to the very form of orthodox doctrine, and dares obstinately to affirm something he does not understand.” In this case, the Christian’s lack of true knowledge becomes an obstacle to the unbeliever’s embracing the truth of the gospel. The great harm, says the bishop of Hippo, is not that “an ignorant individual is derided” but that “people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions and . . . the writers of Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.”

I don’t want to hijack this thread so I’ll leave it at that.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Amen…and…Amen

We’ll leave this open to our missing OP - :takeoff: