National Sunday Law Takes Affect!

[drdude]

Praying with idols? The pope ‘absorbs’ our sins? Saying prayers as ‘atonement’ for our sins?

Sorry you so missunderstood Catholic teaching.

However, if you are truly open to truth, I suggest you research your SDA versions of history and what they think the Catholic Church teaches. SDAs are very guilty of perpetuating innaccurate versions of both. I am a former SDA who researched my way right out of the denomination my senior year at an Adventist university.

If you are so convinced its easy to tell which day is the ‘true’ sabbath, please answer a question no other Adventist has ever been able to answer:

Are the New Guinea Adventists (east of the dateline) or the New Zealand Adventists (west of the dateline) keeping the right day? At the same time, under the same sun in the sky, its Saturday in New Guinea while its Sunday in New Zealand.

Before you answer, consider this: The International dateline is an entirely arbitrary and man-made abstraction dividing the days of the week.

The usual answer is ‘keep it where you are’ or ‘do the best you can’ To which I answer: If God requires sabbath keeping and our salvation depends on it (as you alluded to yourself in previous posts) wouldn’t it be easy to find, always and everywhere? When is sabbath on the international space station? On the moon? On other planets? Yes, this is relevant, there are already people spending more than a week at a time in space.

This is a big subject indeed. Here is a link that will give you a good answer.

sabbatarian.com/Content/Dateline.html

Another missundestanding I would like to clear up. Catholicism is not anti-sabbath. Anyone is free to keep a saturday sabbath if they want to do so. As Christians however, we have no obligation to do so. None. This is pertinent to the OP. A law persecuting saturday sabbath keepers is a ridiculous idea as its not against Catholic teaching to do so. The Catechism of the Catholic church states that Saturday is the sabbath and commends those who keep it. Sunday is a different day. It is the first day, the day of the resurrection, and also the eighth, as it follows the sabbath. You might look up the offering of the first fruits in the OT. It was offered on the eighth day, just as circumcision fell on the eighth day. I find this very significant as Jesus is refered to as the ‘first fruits’ of those who will be resurrected.

Sunday fulfills the commandment as we use the day to regularly and publically worship God, every seventh day. BTW, the hebrew word in the commandent for seventh means just that, an ordinal number indicating an object that follows six others, not a particular, named day.

OK, so the same issue would fall on you as well. How do you know you are worshiping on Sunday, or the eigth day the day after the Sabbath which would have the dateline issue?

MarysRoses

 

[drdude]

The Rosary is a private prayer. I have many forms of private prayer. I don’t focus on the “Hail Mary” I focus on the “mysteries.”

The sorrowful mysteries; joyful mysteries; glorious mysteries… majority of the time, I just read the passages for each mystery and just reflex and mediate on them. Many times I don’t do anything more then that. I especially enjoy focusing on the sorrowful mysteries, when I focus on the sorrowful mysteries I’m get flashes from the movie the “Passion of the Christ” and I’m fill with awe on what Christ actually did for me. How He truly suffered for me.

Seeing Jesus is the Mediator for us do **NOT ** pray for me… If you pray for me then you are acting as my mediator between God and me. Thanks for understanding!

I’m sorry to hear that events in your life help lead to you falling hard away from God.

Good for you! We should all read scripture. I believe that if we are ignorant of scripture then we are ignorant of Christ.

However you are just not simply reading the Bible to see what it said… you are “interpreting” it and applying meaning to it. You go read to seek understanding, propose and how to apply it to life today.

no argument here.

That is not what you are doing. If you were simply trying to show what the Bible has to say would just give passages without commentary or opinions attached. However, nearly every post from you has opinions and commentary attached suggestion what this means and what that means.

Granted I have done the same. You and I both clam that we can do this because the Holy Spirit has lead us.

The question I’m asking (Myself included) is how can we do this? How do we KNOW truly know that it is the Holy Spirit that leads us? How can we be sure? What happens when we have 2 people that say that the Holy Spirit is leading them, but they have 2 different answers, 2 different opinions? What do we do? How do we know? Surly we both can’t be right?

I agree with you, how do we know it is the Holy Spirit leading us? How can we be certain what is true. We live in a world with so many doctrines that Man have created because they believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them. Who is right? Who is wrong?

Also note, we can pray for each other. We cannot pray to each other.

 

[adventistnomore]

Because the 10 commandments represent God’s character. They are placed in the Ark under the mercy seat which was part of the Tabernacle as a model of Heaven and our plan for our salvation.

Doesn’t answer my objections at all. I said eternal laws can exist outside the Ten Commandments, which they obviously do (bestiality, etc.) The Feast of Tabernacles/Booths could be among them.

Also are we on the New Earth now?

Then I will wait to observe Sabbath when we reach the New Earth as well. Thanks for the heads up.

Does the new testament speak of the Feast of Tabernacle (Booths) being observed by the Apostles after Christ? No it doesn’t!

Yes it does. In some readings of Acts 18:21 (preserved in the KJV), Paul speaks of coming to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Christ Himself kept the Feast of Tabernacles (John 7), just like He kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16).Don’t you want to follow His example?

Does the old testament speak of unclean foods, homosexuality and beastiality before the 10 commandments? Yes it does. All of which are in Genesis. Where there Jews during Noah’s day? No there weren’t!

Where does the book of Genesis mention bestiality? Name me one verse.

 

[adventistnomore]

Excuse this random post; I just want to be the 700th post on this thread

And now back to our regularly scheduled debate…

 

[drdude]

Excuse this random post; I just want to be the 700th post on this thread

And now back to our regularly scheduled debate…

LOL

 

[jsenner]

From reading your testimony I would suggest you look into Eastern Orthodoxy. It does have the advantage of a valid succession of bishops from the Apostles as well as all the sacraments. Plus if you realized what the rituals meant in the service, you’d be amazed what you see in the book of Revelation relating to worship. I gaurantee there’s alot more about worship in Revelation than simply chapter 14:6,7.

Jeremiah

I was raised Catholic and have been to church for many years. I have learned the Catholic Doctrine so I know it very well. Later in my early adult years I fell away from church because I just couldn’t believe I must confess my sins to a priest and than say 5 Our Fathers, 10 Hail Mary as given to me as atonement for my sins. I couldn’t believe praying with idols, statues of Mary, Rosary. I couldn’t believe in praying to Mary as an Intecessor to Jesus to God. Jesus is the Mediator for us to the Father. I couldn’t believe the Pope is Vicar of Christ, and when people kiss his ring he sates Your sins are forgiven (absorbed). Anyway I fell away hard. I started doubting God and was more of an Agnostic. Later In life I felt like I needed to read the Bible. I had my doubts. I almost wanted to prove it wrong. But the bible proved me wrong, it convicted me. It corrected me, even if I held on to what I thought was right, it showed me I was wrong. So you see it doesn’t matter what we think it’s what the bible tells us. God is our Father, he is honest with us. Just as I as a parent know, with my kids they may be doing something that they enjoy and feel is right. But I as the adult who knows better have to tell them it is wrong. They may not like it but the fact is that it is true.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Also note, we can pray for each other. We cannot pray to each other.

You’re right… we can pray for each other!

The saints in heaven can and do pray for us and I have a right to ask those in heaven to pray for me.

I’ll be honest and say I don’t do it very often, however when I do I’m just simply asking those in Heaven to pray for me. To be honest I don’t ask my brothers and sisters here on Earth to pray for me every much either.

The Saints and Angels in Heaven can pray for me! Just like you can pray for me!

I believe that Revelation 8:3-5 and Revelation 5:8 are examples of the Saints and Angels in Heaven praying for the faithful on Earth.

My logic and understanding said that in order for the Saints and Angels in heaven had to receive the prayers of the faithful on Earth in order to pray for them. The question is who did they receive the prayers from and how?

Would Christ take the prayers of the faithful on Earth and give them to the Saints and Angels in Heaven only for the Saints and Angels to re-give them back to Him? No, I believe that once God receives a prayer he keeps the prayer.

So my understanding leads me to believe that the Saints and Angels in Heaven receive the prayers of the faithful on Earth from the faithful on Earth. How does that happen?

 

[MarysRoses]

This is a big subject indeed. Here is a link that will give you a good answer.

sabbatarian.com/Content/Dateline.html

Thanks for the link, did you read it before you posted it?
It contains one idea on how to accommodate the international dateline, but is contrary to Adventist practice.

Some quotes from the article you posted:

“Now what do you suppose happens to the Calendar Date in this traditional man made world when the leading edge of the approaching True Sabbath Setting Darkness crosses this imaginary Dateline (IDL)? Well, the Friday night sunset suddenly becomes a Saturday night sunset. Of course, this is not in accordance with our Creator, who established Jerusalem as the Holy City”

The articles goes on to say the dateline should run through Jerusalem. This is a possible solution to the question I posed, but again, this not the Adventist solution. I’d also like to remark that is just another interpretation of scripture, nowhere in the Bible does it say the days should begin and end in Jerusalem.

More quotes from the article you posted:

“All countries West of The International Dateline and East of Jerusalem should actually be keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath on Sunday, but most of them (Christopagans) by far don’t know it, and are, therefore, guilty of breaking the Fourth Commandment by “The Intent of Their Heart.” They actually believe they are observing a Sunday sabbath when it is actually a Saturday Sabbath.” hm… and:

“Also, those Sabbath Keepers (West of the IDL and East of Jerusalem) who (out of ignorance) keep a Friday night to Saturday night Sabbath are not correctly observing the TRUE Sabbath.”

Confused anyone? The author seems to be suggesting that to keep the biblical sabbath, persons east of Jerusalem and west of the dateline should keep Sunday, not Saturday…
Adventists in New Zealand, Australia, China, etc, however, keep whatever day is designated as Saturday by the local community. It seems even drdude is confused

Adventists claim that sabbath must be kept specifically on Saturday. They also teach that this either is already or soon will be a matter of salvation. They say we can be lost by keeping the wrong day. Yet is seems the ‘right’ day can be hard to find. Does this seem reasonable?:confused

Surely the New Testament would clearly define the day and command that Christians keep it. I’ll save you some time, there is NO commandment anywhere in the New Testament that Christians should observe the sabbath. Instead we find ones like Colossians 2:16-17:

16
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath. 8
17
These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.

(continued next post)

 

[MarysRoses]

OK, so the same issue would fall on you as well. How do you know you are worshiping on Sunday, or the eigth day the day after the Sabbath which would have the dateline issue?

Actually I don’t have this issue. I make no claim to be a bible only Christian. While I find sufficient references to Sunday assembly in the New Testament and Early Church Fathers to have confidence that Sunday assembly is acceptable to a Christian, my reason for keeping it isn’t a bible verse or some person’s interpretation of a bible verse. I keep it because the Church asks us to do so. Catholic Christians have an obligation to attend Sunday mass if reasonable possible to do so. Debating verses and digging out the history books is fun, and for me, validation of my beliefs, but I keep Sunday because Holy Mother Church asks me to. I don’t tiptoe around that acceptance of the teaching authority of the Church anymore.

I was an SDA, I studied myself out of it into being Catholic. As the years went on, I allowed myself to lapse, thinking of course that I knew better (who needs confession anyway? right?) Eventually I realized how far away from God I had wandered and wanted to go home. So I went to confession for the first time in years. I got three Hail Marys as penance. This time I accepted my token with gratitude instead of skepticism. The token is not for God, it is for me, sin causes wounds that need healing, yet nothing we can do can replace what Jesus has already done for us.

Why are there so many varieties of protestants? Why do Christians end up following eastern religions and new age fads? Because we all want to follow our own ideas and inclinations, and we don’t like doing things we don’t want to do.

The hardest thing about being Catholic is accepting we are not our own highest authority on history, theology and morality. Accepting that God did establish a visible, real Church on earth, and gave her the authority to teach and preserve the faith for all generations, can be difficult. Its hard to give up control. The first time around, I agreed with that concept and said I believed it, and ended up following my own inclinations anyway. This time around, I remind myself that subjecting our will and intellect to God is part of the definition of faith.

So how can I find what day I should go to church in the arctic, around the dateline, on the moon or even Mars? Ask the Church, the foundation and pillar of our faith.

1 Tim 3:15:
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

MarysRoses

 

[contramundum7]

I just have this one sincere question…

What will you all think when we are ALL forced to WORSHIP on ONE SPECIFIC DAY (Sunday as foretold by the Bible) and not be able to buy or sell unless we go to church on that SPECIFIC day?

Will you all realize then and only then that Bible prophecy has come true and that Sunday is the day that was replaced by the Roman Catholic church to replace the seventh day holy Sabbath?

i doubt that’s going 2 happen but if it did, what difference does it make what day you worship on? I think u should worship every day, every hour… R u a 7th day ad? The Catholic Church changed it in honor of the Resurrection…

Hey, just curious!

 

[contramundum7]

contramundum7:
The church celebrates on Sunday in honor of the Resurrection.

What difference does it really make, though? If that law is passed & i doubt it ever will be… it really doesn’t matter. I think we should worship every dya… The Church can either be trusted in all her official teachings or she can be trusted in none… So where are u at on this??

 

[JoeyWarren]

 

[JoeyWarren]

Excuse this random post; I just want to be the 700th post on this thread

And now back to our regularly scheduled debate…

You know of course you should have to do some penance for that 700 deal?

 

[JoeyWarren]

I was in the Catholic Church from infancy until the age of 19. My Aunt who lives on the first floor from the House I grew up in is a Nun in NJ.

No, you were in the Catholic church until age of 16.

Although I stopped going to church at 16, I was surrounded by my Catholic family and have always stayed in conversation about Doctrine and God.

You probably was not listening. More than likely you’re mind was on things that caused you to delve into drugs.

I never did drugs as a teenager. I can tell you it was not because of my church. I was too dayum poor for drugs. I grew up in an anti-catholic religion.

later got involved with drugs, drinking and all the other Wordly things.

So you were an addict from 16 to 32?

But by the Grace of God, He has pulled me away from that life and put me on the right track.

And what was the mechinism? I am assuming an SDA was involved in the process.

Amen! I am now 33 years old. I have been convicted for only a year now, but have been studying the Bible for several years.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Like I stated I first started out to try and disprove it since all I knew was Catholic Doctrine.

Why? What were your motives. And who helped you with these motives? Was an SDA guiding you and giving you answers?

WHY AM I ASKING ALL THE QUESTIONS? I HAVE GUIDED PEOPLE LIKE YOU BACK INTO THE CHURCH. THEY WERE POORLY TAUGHT WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES. THEIR CCD PROGRAM WAS PATHETIC TO SAY THE LEAST.

Most left the church at an early age like you because they could not deal with the strict conservativeness of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is a hard pill to swallow especially with rules such contraception and divorce.

Maybe you should have tried to prove the Catholic Church right instead of trying to prove wrong.

 

[goitalone]

What a sad parade.

 

[drdude]

Exactly…You all follow Church and traditions of man. Hey just as you follow Sunday around the world, we follow Sabbath around the world. 7 days runs different here than it does on the otherside. No one said that it has to be the whole world at the sametime.

Yes an SDA help me with my studies. In fact he is my brother-in-law. But you cannot back up your statements from scripture, oh wait Sunday is mentioned how manytimes? Sabbath is mentioned more in the NT than the first day of the week is. Did Jesus tell you that Sunday is the day…NO!! Men did! Oh to the post of Jesus following the feasts, of course he did he was a Jew too. He wasn’t dead yet, he didn’t fulfill the Mosaic laws yet.

No I was not a drug addict, but I did experiment with drugs, and I was poor too. Sorry about the typo, I left the church at 16 not 19. But I paid attention in church. Catholic is a hard pill to swallow alright, that’s because most of it’s doctrines are not in the bible. A few texts taken out of context, anyone can do. You are expected to believe what the church tells you in order to believe. At least SDA’s show you in the bible everything they teach. Oh yeah I forgot Catholics have the Apocrypha the uninspired doctrine. Need proof do some searches the only people who back up the Aprocrypha are Catholics…HMMM

 

[Mommyof02green]

Oh yeah I forgot Catholics have the Apocrypha the uninspired doctrine. Need proof do some searches the only people who back up the Aprocrypha are Catholics…HMMM

Clearly you do not know what books are in an Orthodox-Christian Bible.

 

[JoeyWarren]

But you cannot back up your statements from scripture, oh wait Sunday is mentioned how manytimes?

Just as many times Saturday is mentioned in the Bible.

Saturday was named after the God Saturn.

There is no proof that the Saturday is the Sabbath. The Calendar system has changed several times over the course of time.

Plus nowhere in the Bible does it state that a Worship Service is to be conducted on the Sabbath.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Catholic is a hard pill to swallow alright, that’s because most of it’s doctrines are not in the bible.

Yes they are. Just start a thread on each one you believe is not in the Bible.

Even better, go here for the biblical basis of the the Catholic church:

Scripture Catholic - Teachings of the Catholic Faith

 

[JoeyWarren]

Oh yeah I forgot Catholics have the Apocrypha the uninspired doctrine. Need proof do some searches the only people who back up the Aprocrypha are Catholics…HMMM

Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Jews

Are they inspired?

You betcha.

says who?

The Holy Spirit himself.

The question begs asking.

WHO TELLS YOU THEY ARE NOT INSPIRED?

AND BY WHAT AUTHORITY?