National Sunday Law

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A radical 7th day Adventist offshoot group gathers outside Catholic churches in Souther Oregon to try to stop worshippers from attending mass. They pass out nasty little booklets called National Sunday Law, the usual stuff calling us the “Whore of Babylon”, etc. They have gone as far as vandalizing church property and nailing hateful posters on the church doors.

A friend of mine has been totally brainwashed by this vehemently anti-catholic fringe group. I am trying to lead him to the truth, but it has been a difficult struggle. Does anyone have any information about this group, or about the author of Jan Marcussen who wrote that trashy little book called National Sunday Law? I would appreciate any help in my effort to bring my friend out of that awful cult-like sect.

Thanks -
Daniel
 
Daniel, my mom is getting ready to be baptized into it, so I understand and appreciate your struggle. (My post is just below). I will see what I can find out for you, but I haven’t had a lot of success thus far. I know I’ve seen one post from an SDA convert on the forum, I will see if I can find that person and refer them here.
 
My neighborhood got lots of these bigoted books sent over to each home. I “returned to sender” my copy, in addition to writing some nice interesting comments (apologetical, of course!) in the book. 🙂
 
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Daniel:
A radical 7th day Adventist offshoot group gathers outside Catholic churches in Souther Oregon to try to stop worshippers from attending mass. They pass out nasty little booklets called National Sunday Law, the usual stuff calling us the “Whore of Babylon”, etc. They have gone as far as vandalizing church property and nailing hateful posters on the church doors.

A friend of mine has been totally brainwashed by this vehemently anti-catholic fringe group. I am trying to lead him to the truth, but it has been a difficult struggle. Does anyone have any information about this group, or about the author of Jan Marcussen who wrote that trashy little book called National Sunday Law? I would appreciate any help in my effort to bring my friend out of that awful cult-like sect.

Thanks -
Daniel
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Re 1:10 (KJV)
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Give them that verse. most Catholic and Protestant bible scholars agree that it’s Sunday.
 
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beng:
Re 1:10 (KJV)
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Give them that verse. most Catholic and Protestant bible scholars agree that it’s Sunday.
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The problem I run into is that they dislike the Protestants almost as much as us, so us agreeing with the Protestants on anything doesn’t help our cause. It’s a tough battle. Especially when the person in question is a former Catholic and thinks they know what the Church teaches. It doesn’t matter if they understood it improperly, were poorly catechized or simply don’t get it. They know more than you and they are right and you are wrong. It boils down to faith, you either believe it or you don’t … to me Catholic Answers is as clear as it gets, but I sent mom there to read some of the stuff as she was getting deeper and deeper into the SDA stuff and she just brushed it off as being misguided, that she had a bunch of books I should read about how wrong the church had been in the past (by that of course she meant simply that there had been sinners in the church… big surprise). What she failed (and continues to miss, and I’ve tried unsuccessfully to discuss) to understand is that the church is not a human institution, subject to the failings of men. Christ set it up, the Holy Spirit guides it, and the power of hell will not prevail against it… which means no matter how many sinners there are in it’s midst, it still gets through to kingdom come… no ifs ands or buts. To me it’s the best argument there is… but it hasn’t worked so far…
 
I do not know if it would help you, but one thing that I have used in the past is John 6 just to hit the high points on the Eucharist, and then to work on showing them the rock that is Peter. Then I give them a list of all the Popes unbroken back to the time of Christ. I then ask them to show me their line back to the time of our Lord. This takes time and them being willing to work in the Bible and also discuss things back and forth with them, as I am sure you know. I have found it helps if I allow them to use some of their script.

I also enjoy asking them to tell me how they know which books belong in the Bible but this can cause distraction some times to.

I hope this helps
Scott
 
Basically, the way I understand it is this. SDA’s claim that the Pope and the Church are forever trying to pass laws so that no one can work on Sunday’s. This would ofcourse make them work on the Sabbath. And the forcing of the Worshipping on Sunday would be mark of the beast and what not.

There is a member on this forum that is coming into the RCC from SDA, SDA2RC try to get ahold of him…

Also Check out my web site at machado-family.com/Q&A.htm and I also battled it out with a fellow Catholic on apologetics.com, Sabbath and you will probably also need some info on dietary issue, link.

Joao
 
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Daniel:
Does anyone have any information about this group, or about the author of Jan Marcussen who wrote that trashy little book called National Sunday Law? I would appreciate any help in my effort to bring my friend out of that awful cult-like sect.
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Daniel,
Jan Marussen was an SDA Pastor, who to my knowledge was forced to resign his pastoral position because of his outspoken (not necessarily incorrect) propigation of SDA Teachings. Basically… he became an embarrasment to the SDA Church because the way he presented the SDA Teaching was done with so little tact… as you are experiencing.

The Book National Sunday Law pretty accurately represents what the majority of SDA’s believe and have been taught regarding the RCC. I have read the book. Their position on the RCC church is a result of, IMO, radical protestantism combined with a Remnant Theology, ie. they believe that they ARE the Remnant spoken of Revelation, to the exclusion of all other groups.

The SDA Churches teachings in a BRIEF Nutshell about Catholicism are as follows:
  • The Catholic Church is the Little Horn of Daniel that seeks to change “Times and Laws” and opresses the saints (ie. the Remnant of God).
  • The Pope will be the AntiChrist in the end times.
  • After several disasters at the end of time, the Pope/Anti-Christ will emerge as the world leader offering peace and a coalition for nations to help each other, under the banner of Religion, uniting Governments, CAtholicism, protestantism, Muslims and Jews against SDA’s.
  • To be part of this coalition, members countries will force their residents to worship in communion with the Pope on Sundays.
  • Those who refuse to worship on Sundays will flee to the mountains and seek shelter as the nations under the direction of the Pope begin killing those who will not go to Church on Sunday (observe the Sunday Law). America will lead this attack and is considered the beast in revelation 13:11 coming out of the earth.
  • The original beast (Rev 13:2) coming out of the sea, is the vatican.
  • The “Image of the beast” in Rev 13:15 is the Saturday Sabbath.
  • The mark of the beast in the forehead is the belief that Sunday is the day to worship, the mark of the beast in the hand is the action of worshipping on Sunday.
I used to teach, believe, and defend these beliefs VIGOROUSLY… so dont hesistate to ask questions etc.

Brandon
 
Interesting interpretations of scripture, these SDA have. I wonder if they believe them to be infallible. Oh wait, they do! 🙂
 
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Maggie:
The problem I run into is that they dislike the Protestants almost as much as us, so us agreeing with the Protestants on anything doesn’t help our cause… to me Catholic Answers is as clear as it gets, but I sent mom there to read some of the stuff as she was getting deeper and deeper into the SDA stuff and she just brushed it off as being misguided, that she had a bunch of books I should read about how wrong the church had been in the past.
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Maggie,
You are right, SDA’s dont give much credence to other protestants, after all… they are “Sunday Keepers” 😉 Catholic Answers is a great resource, however, I found that most of the articles (rightly so) are aimed at larger protestant traditions, and often do not accurately reflect SDA objections. In fact, I personally found nothing from a Catholic view the responded directly and specifically to SDA Theology point by point, whereas I found several for other religions. (I see this as an opportunity for me to do just that, so… am beginning to work on it) 😃 Anyway, the books your mom wants you to read are mostly likely SDA books not history books…Did she name any titles? Are there any SDA Doctrines that you know she has accepted from Adventism? such as… The Investigative Judgement, The prophetic Gift of Ellen G. White, Sabbath/Saturday observance, abstaining from unclean meats, prophecy, etc?

Brandon
 
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SDA2RC:
Maggie,
You are right, SDA’s dont give much credence to other protestants, after all… they are “Sunday Keepers” 😉 Catholic Answers is a great resource, however, I found that most of the articles (rightly so) are aimed at larger protestant traditions, and often do not accurately reflect SDA objections. In fact, I personally found nothing from a Catholic view the responded directly and specifically to SDA Theology point by point, whereas I found several for other religions. (I see this as an opportunity for me to do just that, so… am beginning to work on it) 😃 Anyway, the books your mom wants you to read are mostly likely SDA books not history books…Did she name any titles? Are there any SDA Doctrines that you know she has accepted from Adventism? such as… The Investigative Judgement, The prophetic Gift of Ellen G. White, Sabbath/Saturday observance, abstaining from unclean meats, prophecy, etc?

Brandon
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YES!! Not the Ellen White stuff (I don’t think, she’s not being entirely truthful with me at this point.) But the unclean meat, the Sabbath, not sure what the investigative judgement is, but she no longer believes in hell or purgatory, she thinks that the unjust disappear and the just go to heaven on the final day (I might be a little off-base, sorry). Those are a few she’s specifically adapted.
 
So how does she account for all the times Jesus mentions hell, does she think He is just kidding?
 
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Maggie:
YES!! Not the Ellen White stuff (I don’t think, she’s not being entirely truthful with me at this point.) But the unclean meat, the Sabbath, not sure what the investigative judgement is, but she no longer believes in hell or purgatory, she thinks that the unjust disappear and the just go to heaven on the final day (I might be a little off-base, sorry). Those are a few she’s specifically adapted.
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Any one particular you want to try to talk to her about?

BTW… you are correct SDA’s do not believe that Hell exists, but that instead the wicked are destroyed body and soul, and the righteous go to heaven for 1000 years. They also teach Soul-Sleep in death.

Brandon
 
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cmom:
So how does she account for all the times Jesus mentions hell, does she think He is just kidding?
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Hell is more of a temporary thing. Ie. the wicked are cast into Hell (lake of fire) but once they are consumed by that fire, it ceases to exist… much like a campfire. Once the kindling is burned, the fire is over.

to SDA’s Eternal punishment = a punishment who’s effects last for eternity… ie being destroyed. The punishment is not ongoing for eternity, only its effects are eternal.

Brandon
 
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SDA2RC:
Any one particular you want to try to talk to her about?

BTW… you are correct SDA’s do not believe that Hell exists, but that instead the wicked are destroyed body and soul, and the righteous go to heaven for 1000 years. They also teach Soul-Sleep in death.

Brandon
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Wait a second, the righteous go to heaven for a 1000 years and then what? And, since she has at least clearly stated that she no longer believes in purgatory or hell, I think I could start a discussion on those two.
 
According to SDA’s:

At the second coming, which is a visible event, not a secret rapture… Christ will decsend (btw… SDA’s believe Michael and Christ are the same person) and the brightness of his coming will kill all the wicked. The righteous will go to heaven for 1000. During this 1000 year millenium, the wicked are left dead, and thus leaves the Devil wandering on the earth with no one to tempt (ie. beinig bound with a chain to the bottomless pit).

The righteous are involved in a type of vidication judgement against Christ. For example, if your friend Jane was not in heaven, you would be able to review her “records” and see why Christ did not being her to heaven, and thus vindicate His correct decisions. AFter the 1000 years when this is all completed, the Holy City (New Jerusalem) along with Christ and all the saints will decsend from heaven, and resurrect the dead wicked. The dead wicked along with Satan will make their final assault on the New Jerusalem and at that time God will send fire from heaven which will destroy Satan, and all his followers, angels and human. Once they are destroyed… they cease to exist.

The official SDA statement of beliefs on this are quoted below:
24. The Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ’s coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

26. The Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19
 
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SDA2RC:
According to SDA’s:
At the second coming, which is a visible event, not a secret rapture… Christ will descend
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Okay, that’s in line with what we believe, right?

SDA2RC said:
(btw… SDA’s believe Michael and Christ are the same person)
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How can that be? Michael is an Angel (created), Christ is the Son of God (begotten not made, one in being with the Father).
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SDA2RC:
The righteous are involved in a type of vindication judgement against Christ. For example, if your friend Jane was not in heaven, you would be able to review her “records” and see why Christ did not bring her to heaven, and thus vindicate His correct decisions.
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So they would get to judge God? How is that? :confused: I actually heard her sort of mention that and figured she just didn’t get it right. She was all excited about getting to tell Jesus how right he was. But isn’t it sort of judging God AND other people all at the same time? Which, doesn’t it say (in various places) we don’t get to do?
 
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