National Sunday Law

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Maggie:
Wait a second, the righteous go to heaven for a 1000 years and then what? And, since she has at least clearly stated that she no longer believes in purgatory or hell, I think I could start a discussion on those two.
Why Adventists Dont Believe in hell:

Again this is brief… so if you have questions feel free to e-mail me or post them on here and I will answer.

Adventist believe that when you die you enter a “sleep” in which your thoughts and everything cease to exist. There is no spirit that lives on. You just cease to be until resurrected.

When presented with verses that quote that Hell has “eternal fire” Adventist’s will respond by saying, that Jude Verse 7 says: "7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire"

Since we know that Sodom and Gomorrah is not eternally burning, ie. still burning today, they can say that the eternal fire in Heaven does not burn eternally, but only the effects of the fire are eternal.

If you really look at the verse though, you will notice that it says “They” serve as an example of those going to hell. There verse no where says that the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah serves as a type of the burning that will occur in Hell. The subject of this comparison is the people who are leading sinful lives… ie. those who were sinful and unrepentant in Soddom and Gomorrah, were destroyed just as those who are sinful and unrepentant now will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Taken in context and in the plain reading, this is teaching on the condition of the people, not on the nature of the punishment they received.

Next they will turn to: Matthew 10:28, which says: “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Since this verse says that the body/soul can be destroyed in Hell, this means to them, that it ceases to exist completely. I would note, although there are other ways to defend this verse. That the writer changes language from kill, to destroy. I.e. man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Whereas, God can DESTROY (not kill) the body and soul. Destroy can mean several things… it does not necessarily mean that somethign ceases to exisy. Strong’s Enhanced Lexicon, however, tells us that if this word refers to hell it means “to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell.” When taken in conjunction with other verses it is clear that this verse does not mean that the body and soul cease to exist. One other thing about this verse… it is easily useable to discuss death. It infers that there is something that goes on after physical death, that man cannot stop!

Now… thats only a couple verses, but they are their most cherished… now lets look at a couple that prove the Catholic positon:
  • Rev: 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This verse clearly states that the TORMENT, not the effects are going to continue for ever, and as if desiring to clarify, that writer says “DAY and NIGHT” and “FOR EVER AND EVER”.

- Isaias 66:24
And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh.

Notice, that this verse claims that in this “hell” their worm will not die. If their worm will not die, why would we expect the person to die?
Cont -
 
Matthew 18:8
And if thy hand, or thy foot, scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

SDA’s will claim that this means the effects were everlasting, just like the fire in Sodom and Gomorrah, however, to say that they will be cast into the fire, who’s effects will be everlasting, is seriously adding way too much to the plain reading of this verse. Just tell the SDA that they are adding words to the Bible if they say it means this, that is a strong accusation for them.

Matthew 25:41
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Same as above
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go into** everlasting punishment**: but the just, into life everlasting.

Now the SDA will say, this verse says everlasting punishment, not everlasting punishing. I would suggest you point out how in this verse, the writer is comaparing everlasting life with its opposite, everlasting punishment. If the punishing is not everlasting in this verse… then the living cannot be everlasting either, since they are drawn in parallel.

Mark 9:42-43
And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: Where** their worm dieth not**, and the** fire is not extinguished**.

Note, the writer clarifies what is meant by unquenchable fire… that the FIRE IS NOT EXTINGUISHED.

Hope this helps a little.
Brandon
 
Brandon,

You really should consider putting this information into a book. There’s so little information available for evangelizing to adventists. I know my neighbor is one. I’ve had to scour the internet just to get what little info I have on them and their beliefs. On top of that there’s not much info on how best to approach them and their beliefs.

Michael
 
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Maggie:
Okay, that’s in line with what we believe, right?

How can that be? Michael is an Angel (created), Christ is the Son of God (begotten not made, one in being with the Father).

So they would get to judge God? How is that? :confused: I actually heard her sort of mention that and figured she just didn’t get it right. She was all excited about getting to tell Jesus how right he was. But isn’t it sort of judging God AND other people all at the same time? Which, doesn’t it say (in various places) we don’t get to do?
Yes… they believe that they get to Judge God… and declare God righteouss. Basically the idea is that Satan made an accusation which questioned God’s fairness. During the millenium, they believe that we will proclaim to the world that God was in fact fair and therefore remove any doubt and undo the question that Satan put in the air.

An easy way to get an Adventist to see the un-logical position of this is to ask what would happen if one person during the SDA Millenium Judgement where to declare that God was actually not fair. The SDA would them reply that it would not happen. So then ask, but what if it did? They have no answer. Finally, conclude by asking, well, if it can’t happen that we can find God un-fair, then what is the point in the Judgement!

Also, if we are judging that God if fair, isnt is a little coercive that God has killed all his opposition before we get to judge? Would we on fallible earthly courts, think it was fair to let the judge kill the prisoner first, then after he is dead and cannot speak for himself, we go ahead and decide if what the Judge did was right, based on the Judges notes??? If this would not be fair on earth, why do Adventists think this would be fair in a heavely, perfect court?

Yes… Michael is created to our belief, and most others… however, they believe that he is Christ. This is why, to them, when he returns, he returns with the voice of the “ArchAngel”… they are very quick to point out that Angel only means messenger, and Arch would mean, the head of… so it is not contrary for Christ to be called the Head of the Messengers.

Brandon
 
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skyjumpr:
Brandon,

You really should consider putting this information into a book. There’s so little information available for evangelizing to adventists. I know my neighbor is one. I’ve had to scour the internet just to get what little info I have on them and their beliefs. On top of that there’s not much info on how best to approach them and their beliefs.

Michael
I hope to do just that sometime… using the SDA 27 fundamental beliefs, and systematically going through them and discussion them. There are many points where we agree… ie. Triniy, Virgin Birth etc. But even on these points, it would be interesting to many people to find that SDA’s began as a NON TRINITARIAN church… and only within the last 50 years or so, actively taught the Trinity.

Brandon
 
Brandon, I can’t begin to thank you enough for all you’ve written thus far. It is such an incredible contribution!! You are truly an answer to my prayers (and Grandfather’s as well 🙂 I am sure). It is so incredibly kind of you to share your wealth of knowledge with those of us (me especially) so ignorant of what is taught. It might not make me a good arguer, but at least it lets me see where the battlefield lies.
 
The worst part is that these SDA’s are not even realizing reality.

There won’t be a National Sunday law, because eventually any kind of Sunday legislation will eventually be struck down as unconstitutional because of the “seperation of church and state” idiocy that the seKKKularists.

A time will come when practicing any faith will be forbidden. Masses will be held secretly and by invitation only to trusted followers. Christians of all denominations (except those which are liBRRRal) shall be persecuted. Churches will be sued into the ground for “hate crimes” or shut down because of “seperation of church and state”. Tax-exempt status shall be yanked from the churches under the latter and taxed into oblivion.

Are you ready to go to prison for your faith? Are you ready to lose all your possessions to legal challenges for your faith? You’ll find out soon enough.
 
Wow. This is great stuff. My dad has been a SDA for approx 35 years. He is 80 years old now and I don’t know if I would be able to reason with him no matter how well I knew the facts.

Brandon, any ideas on how to talk to the older folk without causing them to lose faith all together?

P.S. My dad hasn’t given me any trouble, thank goodness, about converting to Catholicism (from Methodist). Every once in a while, however, he does let some of his anti-Catholicism slip.
 
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SusanL:
Wow. This is great stuff. My dad has been a SDA for approx 35 years. He is 80 years old now and I don’t know if I would be able to reason with him no matter how well I knew the facts.

Brandon, any ideas on how to talk to the older folk without causing them to lose faith all together?

P.S. My dad hasn’t given me any trouble, thank goodness, about converting to Catholicism (from Methodist). Every once in a while, however, he does let some of his anti-Catholicism slip.
Hi Susan, I would probably start by just building up the common view of Jesus and the Trinity, begin to develop a spiritual connection with him on the points you have in common not even worrying about those you do not share. This will do a few things, first, re-assure him that you are a saved, Christian who loves Christ. Second, help him to focus even more on his spirituality and relationship with God, and third, hopefully it will build a bond where he will want to learn why you converted… if he does, then you have an opportunity to share. If that time never comes, your time spent will still only serve to benefit both of you in your relationship with each other and in your relationships with God. 🙂

I think often reasoning with family is the hardest of all… I will pray for you!

Brandon
 
Re 1:10 (KJV)
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Give them that verse. most Catholic and Protestant bible scholars agree that it’s Sunday.
Where in the Bible does it say that Sunday is the Lord’s day?

Genesis 2:3: And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 20:10-11: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Matthew 12:8: For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Keep in mind that Jesus kept the same seventh-day Sabbath that exists today. Now…what day is really the Lord’s day?
 
Where in the Bible does it say that Sunday is the Lord’s day?
Where in the Bible does it specifically state that Saturday is the Lord’s Day? Or Monday? Or Tuesday?..
 
The worst part is that these SDA’s are not even realizing reality.

There won’t be a National Sunday law, because eventually any kind of Sunday legislation will eventually be struck down as unconstitutional because of the “seperation of church and state” idiocy that the seKKKularists.

A time will come when practicing any faith will be forbidden. Masses will be held secretly and by invitation only to trusted followers. Christians of all denominations (except those which are liBRRRal) shall be persecuted. Churches will be sued into the ground for “hate crimes” or shut down because of “seperation of church and state”. Tax-exempt status shall be yanked from the churches under the latter and taxed into oblivion.

Are you ready to go to prison for your faith? Are you ready to lose all your possessions to legal challenges for your faith? You’ll find out soon enough.
Your first paragraph was contradicted by everything else you wrote.
 
Where in the Bible does it specifically state that Saturday is the Lord’s Day? Or Monday? Or Tuesday?..
You must not have read this:

Exodus 20:10-11: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Additionally:

Luke 23:50-56 (NLT): Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph. He was a member of the Jewish high council, but he had not agreed with the decision and actions of the other religious leaders. He was from the town of Arimathea in Judea, and he was waiting for the Kingdom of God to come. He went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Then he took the body down from the cross and wrapped it in a long sheet of linen cloth and laid it in a new tomb that had been carved out of rock. This was done late on Friday afternoon, the day of preparation, as the Sabbath was about to begin.

As his body was taken away, the women from Galilee followed and saw the tomb where his body was placed. Then they went home and prepared spices and ointments to anoint his body. But by the time they were finished the Sabbath had begun, so they rested as required by the law.

Luke 24:1 (NLT): But very early on Sunday morning the women went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared

Even if you read it in the King James Version it says the same thing. The seven day weekly cycle has never been changed and according to the U.S. Naval Observatory, has been in existence long before Christianity ever existed…or essentially, as far back as they could tell.

The Catholic church acknowledges this; they admit making a change to Holy day observance as their “mark of authority” over God’s word.

As followers of Jesus, we should do as he did…and he kept the seventh-day Sabbath holy. Keep in mind that God made the seventh-day holy so it’s literally the only day we can “keep” holy. With regards to Sunday, we can’t “keep” something holy that never was.

You don’t have to believe or accept it, but it is what it is…the Bible truth.
 
I was raised SDA. Even after leaving the SDA sect, for years I still believed that Saturday was the Lord’s Day and that “Sunday keepers” may very well be wrong (wasn’t too sure about that, honestly. It didn’t really seem right that God would condemn people soley based on what day they worshipped him…)

Honestly, it wasn’t until I stumbled upon this website that I was finally able to shake E. G. White. She was still a prophet to me, and all of her teachings still had weight in my life (even the Sunday Law prophecy) even though I was not a practicing adventist.

The seven reasons why she could not have been a prophet shook me pretty hard. Even looking at the shocking quotes was enough to make me skeptical. Tall, skinny people inhabiting Jupiter?! Okay then. The audacity of the White estate who thought it was ok to edit out the “questionable” statements by EG White was a bit disturbing. How could an estate edit the words of a prophet of God to remove…problematic statements?

I was furious for weeks, months maybe. It’s a good thing, though. That was when I really started looking into religion. That was when I actually understood that people absolutely would lie to you about God and faith. Scary. I’m still a little mad at the SDA church, really.

Anywho, I got a bit carried away here. Just wanted to link the ellenwhiteexposed.com site. It helped me escape, finally. Hope it helps someone else.
 
I was raised SDA. Even after leaving the SDA sect, for years I still believed that Saturday was the Lord’s Day and that “Sunday keepers” may very well be wrong (wasn’t too sure about that, honestly. It didn’t really seem right that God would condemn people soley based on what day they worshipped him…)

Honestly, it wasn’t until I stumbled upon this website that I was finally able to shake E. G. White. She was still a prophet to me, and all of her teachings still had weight in my life (even the Sunday Law prophecy) even though I was not a practicing adventist.

The seven reasons why she could not have been a prophet shook me pretty hard. Even looking at the shocking quotes was enough to make me skeptical. Tall, skinny people inhabiting Jupiter?! Okay then. The audacity of the White estate who thought it was ok to edit out the “questionable” statements by EG White was a bit disturbing. How could an estate edit the words of a prophet of God to remove…problematic statements?

I was furious for weeks, months maybe. It’s a good thing, though. That was when I really started looking into religion. That was when I actually understood that people absolutely would lie to you about God and faith. Scary. I’m still a little mad at the SDA church, really.

Anywho, I got a bit carried away here. Just wanted to link the ellenwhiteexposed.com site. It helped me escape, finally. Hope it helps someone else.
I can’t address all of the accusations against Ellen White but I’m not categorically dismissing them; I need to do my own research before addressing them. My point is that I follow what the Bible says, as did she, and I hold it up as the truth.

I don’t think you have to wave the flag of SDA to enter into God’s Kingdom nor do I believe that all SDAs will be saved, but I do believe we have to follow what the Bible says. That much is clear.

Do you deny the Bible because you have issues with members of a particular church or do you substitute one (what you think is) false truth, for another?
 
A radical 7th day Adventist offshoot group gathers outside Catholic churches in Souther Oregon to try to stop worshippers from attending mass. They pass out nasty little booklets called National Sunday Law, the usual stuff calling us the “Whore of Babylon”, etc. They have gone as far as vandalizing church property and nailing hateful posters on the church doors.

A friend of mine has been totally brainwashed by this vehemently anti-catholic fringe group. I am trying to lead him to the truth, but it has been a difficult struggle. Does anyone have any information about this group, or about the author of Jan Marcussen who wrote that trashy little book called National Sunday Law? I would appreciate any help in my effort to bring my friend out of that awful cult-like sect.

Thanks -
Daniel

If worship on Saturday, & not on Sunday, is of such over-riding importance to them as to make them vandalise the property of others, then something is wrong with their priorities 😦

Do these words ring a bell ? 🙂
  • Mat 12:8 “…for the Son of man is lord of the sabbath.”
  • Mar 2:27 …And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath;
    See the contexts for all the details.
The Person of Christ is more important than the OT - so it can’t be interpreted by Christians as though He had not come. That’s why Christians cannot be bound to the commands of the OT - for a Christian is not a pre-Christian Jew, but a new man in Christ.

Hope that helps.
 
You must not have read this:
Exodus 20:10-11: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Additionally:
Luke 23:50-56 (NLT): Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph. He was a member of the Jewish high council, but he had not agreed with the decision and actions of the other religious leaders. He was from the town of Arimathea in Judea, and he was waiting for the Kingdom of God to come. He went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Then he took the body down from the cross and wrapped it in a long sheet of linen cloth and laid it in a new tomb that had been carved out of rock. This was done late on Friday afternoon, the day of preparation, as the Sabbath was about to begin.
As his body was taken away, the women from Galilee followed and saw the tomb where his body was placed. Then they went home and prepared spices and ointments to anoint his body. But by the time they were finished the Sabbath had begun, so they rested as required by the law.
Luke 24:1 (NLT): But very early on Sunday morning the women went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared
Even if you read it in the King James Version it says the same thing. The seven day weekly cycle has never been changed and according to the U.S. Naval Observatory, has been in existence long before Christianity ever existed…or essentially, as far back as they could tell.
The Catholic church acknowledges this; they admit making a change to Holy day observance as their “mark of authority” over God’s word.
As followers of Jesus, we should do as he did…and he kept the seventh-day Sabbath holy. Keep in mind that God made the seventh-day holy so it’s literally the only day we can “keep” holy. With regards to Sunday, we can’t “keep” something holy that never was.
You don’t have to believe or accept it, but it is what it is…the Bible truth.
And not once does this specifically state that the Lord’s Day is Saturday.

And you are obviously overlooking the fact that on some calendars the seventh day is Sunday and the first day is Monday.
 
I can’t address all of the accusations against Ellen White but I’m not categorically dismissing them; I need to do my own research before addressing them. My point is that I follow what the Bible says, as did she, and I hold it up as the truth.

I don’t think you have to wave the flag of SDA to enter into God’s Kingdom nor do I believe that all SDAs will be saved, but I do believe we have to follow what the Bible says. That much is clear.

Do you deny the Bible because you have issues with members of a particular church or do you substitute one (what you think is) false truth, for another?
It’s okay, I wasn’t being obnoxiously aggressive. The Lord is not restricted while working to draw all people to Himself.

I simply do not believe anymore that E. G. White had the authority to interpret Holy Scripture or lay down laws of faith. The old covenant points to the new. The old sabbath to the new. It is a matter of implementing an interpretation. She doesn’t pass the test of a prophet of the Living God. Her interpretation and doctrines are therefore suspect.

The lineage of authority in the Catholic Church has been proven over and over again, even if not to you personally. I humbly accept the God given authority of the Magesterium.

I would rather tell you about the amazing Graces that I have experienced since coming home to the Church. It’s unlike anything I’ve ever experienced prior. I would rather talk about the great things that the Lord has done in my life and in yours. His power to change lives and overcome impossibilities is amazing!

No one can ever convince you to come home. It isn’t a matter of arguments, it’s a matter of complete openness to the will of the Lord. If you are completely open to him, you may find yourself eventually crossing the Tiber…and maybe not. Who can say? I have no clue what the Lord has in store for you. I’ll bow out of this perpetual argument now. God be with you and grant you grace, truth, and peace.
 
The Catholic church acknowledges this; they admit making a change to Holy day observance as their “mark of authority” over God’s word.

As followers of Jesus, we should do as he did…and he kept the seventh-day Sabbath holy. Keep in mind that God made the seventh-day holy so it’s literally the only day we can “keep” holy. With regards to Sunday, we can’t “keep” something holy that never was.

You don’t have to believe or accept it, but it is what it is…the Bible truth.
Please show us where in the New Testament Jesus explicitly commands us to keep the seventh-day sabbath.

And again…

No one is denying we worship on a different day than Seventh-day Adventists, or Jews, or Moslems for that matter.

The problems is Adventists make assumptions about why we worship on a different day. We strongly disagree with their assumptions about the theology and history of Sunday. Adventists seem to think that we are “keeping” the sabbath on teh wrong day. We are saying that Sunday is distinct from the sabbath. All that was transferred (transferred, replaced, changed, pick your word, there are hundreds of languages) was the principle of regular rest and worship as a moral precept that is spiritually beneficial.

Why not talk about why you keep sabbath and we will tell you about why we keep sunday. That seems more productive. All you seem to be able to say is that we are wrong for worshiping on Sunday. In the old covenant, the sabbath was about much more than attending a worship service. As I’ve pointed out, the actual commandment says nothing about assembly. Sunday is about much more than a rest day. I quit clinging to the empty shadow of the sabbath when I saw the beauty of the 8th day symbolism in Sunday. As Christians, the Eucharist and the Resurrection are our focus, not the old covenant or tables of law.

I once had an Adventist relative upset with me. She was so angry she was shaking. She pointed her finger right in my face, jabbing at me to make her point. She said “You are profaning the very LAW OF GOD that he WROTE IN STONE with HIS OWN FINGER!!!” Having had this accusation made to me many times, though not so dramatically, I knew what to answer. I am a Christian and his law is written on our hearts, not on dead stones."

It would seem the Bible supports my view, not my relative’s…

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7But if the ministration of death,** written and engraven in stones**, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

What law did Jesus give us? Love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves. That is the sum of all the law. Jesus drove away all the old shadows that didn’t have life. I always see Adventists quoting that nothing will pass away from the law…
I wonder why they ignore the second part of the statement, … till all be fulfilled. Jesus FULFILLED all the old requirements and we are free. Why take on that burden again when he took it on himself? JESUS is our sabbath rest.

God Bless,
MarysRoses
 
The earliest Christians worshiped on Sunday:
“On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.”
Didache, 14 (A.D. 90)
“Those who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of The Lord’s Day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death.”
  • Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians (110 AD)
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read. Then, when the reader had finished, the presider verbally gives a warning and an appeal for the imitation of these good examples.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers, and, as we said before, when our prayer is ended, bread is brought forth along with wine and water, and the presider likewise gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people call out their assent, saying the Amen. Then there is the distribution to each and the participation in the Eucharistic elements, which are also sent with the deacons to those who are absent. Those who are wealthy and who wish to do so, contribute whatever they themselves care to give; and the collection is placed with the presider…
But Sunday is the day upon which we hold our common assembly because it is the first day on which God…made the world. And Jesus Christ our savior rose from the dead on that same day."
  • Justin Martyr, First Apology (160 AD)
 
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