Native Americans In Tradititional Catholicsm

[TrueLight]

It’s not only Native Americans who have these types of issues. When European missionaries came to conquer lands to bring the Gospel they brought a way that was foreign to the natives. Those who converted often had to reconcile their cultures and the old religion with Christianity.

Unfortunately, what happened with a lot of the lands that had West African slaves like in the West Indies is that the vodun from Africa was mixed with Christianity and this is why these days we have vodou, santeria, etc.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

I read in an unorthodox, gnostic book that Jesus was the Great White Brother that American Indians were either waiting for or who actually appeared to them at the time of his Ministry on Earth.

I always thought it would be interesting to work out historically at what time this Brother appeared to Indians (if he did), or to see if there was any co-incidence. But I might have got it mixed up.

Well, many stories are told. Oral tradition permits each teller to say it in a different way, and each hearer to take it as they will. There are many traditional stories that can be interpreted to mean the Christ. Such is the case that the Christ was to come from Bethel’ham (or was it from Nazareth, or maybe I am wrong and He was to be called out of Egypt. Maybe I too got that mixed up.) Of course I am wording this oddly for a reason. Early Christian writers of the Gospels somehow connected the dozens of Old Testament stories describing the appearance of the Christ. How could the One Christ be born or come from so many places? Well, in reading the Gospels we see how he fulfilled each of those predictions.
Native American prophesy can be seen in a similar way. Our ancestors did not single out a Palistinian Jew named Yoshua. Yet, as Christians, we can come to see how those prophesies may have been meant for the Christ. Our means of story telling can also be misconstrued by western gostic interpretors. So, I suggest a bit of caution in latching on to many of those stories (yet not dismiss them blindly either.)
I heard and often repeat a story that says Jesus orignated here and was Ojibwe and that he was sent to Israel. It is a great story. It is not intended as historical proof or as something one must believe. It is tought provoking and inspiring, though in many ways.
We know Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Concieved in Nazareth. We know he was taken to Egypt and then called out of Egypt and returned to Nazareth. Those and all the other prophesies that did not seem to be able to mold together, in fact did eventually.
But prophesy is NOT fuutre or fortune telling. Regardless of the culture of origin, prophesy is reconzied only after the event and after some work to make the original stories fit. Over all, that we are inspired by the Great Holy Spirit to believe.
Manitou, by the way can be interpreted either as Spirit or as Mystery. We see God as Great Spirit and as Great Mystery. There is no difference in the language.

 

[trickster]

I read in an unorthodox, gnostic book that Jesus was the Great White Brother that American Indians were either waiting for or who actually appeared to them at the time of his Ministry on Earth.

I always thought it would be interesting to work out historically at what time this Brother appeared to Indians (if he did), or to see if there was any co-incidence. But I might have got it mixed up.

Yeah, there are a lot of stories, theories and even gnostic sources (apocraphyl literature I think it is called) that indicate those possibilities…I think it would be interesting especially if is either in his first 30 years or after he was resurrected…but in all honesty I think that would be a journey leading no where…as I think that the two traditions need to be evalued on their own merits…

But yeah…your right…there were prophecies amongst indigenous groups about a “white god” of sorts…so that is why indigenous in South and Central America adopted the faith so quickly…I have my doubts on that…but again…it is interesting, but I can’t see it being factual or possible…

Bruce

 

[trickster]

True. But there is more. Certain theological societies survived such as Midiwin (Anishinabe Medicine Society). Our sacred walk with Grandfather Creator is continous, not simply reconstructed from fragments of history. Indigenous lodges of Traditional wisdom became semi-secret to circumvent persecution. This is much like Early Christians using symbols like the Fish and codes not easily deciphered by Romans. The book of Revelation is heavily coded to foil persecutors, yet maintained the Gospel Message.
We still recieve some rebuff if we inculurate our ways with the Gospel. Example: We often call Gitchi Manitou “Grandfather.” Some missionaries think we must say only “Father.” Grand is the same as great or as Almighty Father. We see Grandparents as a particular source of Wisdom (Sophia - Holy Spirit - Wisdom). Young fathers, entrusted to provide and care for the family, can also be impulsive, lacking wisdom in how they relate. Grand, or Great or Almighty are good prefixes for God the Father.
Sometimes we are told we can not pray or sing in our traditions in a Church unless we provide translations. Yet those demanding the translations or scrips are not in a possition to verify our language and translations. They have not learned the languages of this land, not even after 500 years. We have been asked to come to Church and bring our customs, yet if we do, we are asked to leave. Pope JP II said we do not have to borrow another person’s clothing to enter Church. He also said it is absurd that we are concidered intruders in our own lands (might I substitute “intruders in our own parishes”).
I read where an altar had a deer skin covering. Some people said this was wrong. Maybe it is, or not. Discussion and serious study is needed before they say it is wrong. After all, a Bishop might wear a palladium (sp?) and offer Mass. That is, the Bishop may wear an animal skin (lamb) as part of a traditional RC Catholic tradition.
I have no authority to say yes/no about the use of deer skin altar coverings. However, a priest in war can simply lay a corpal cloth on the bare ground for Mass. I think a proper inquiry is needed before someone says our ways cannot be incluturated, or that the Gospel is not permitted to enter out life and traditions. And our traditions are real and continous, not just reconstructed from whims of a 1960s movement.
Migwetch - Thank you for addressing these concerns. They are complex issues.

NO! Thank YOU Brother Joshua…I stand corrected in your statements, I am also very honoured that you share what you share as it confirms what I know as well and what other Indigenous Catholics have talked about on Catholic Answers…there is much misunderstanding of Aboriginal tradition and even talk about inculturational implications for the Mass which is scary for more traditional Catholics…yet what we are talking about is not wrong…and JP II - you are right - has been one of our strongest supporters…it is his words in many indigenous communities (as well as Benedicts) that encourage me to study this and move towards writing about these things over the next 20 or so years… but the learning starts now…

Blessings…

Trickster (and even that concept is scary to some people…when it is the Raven, the coyote and those architypes that honour and express transformation - or life long conversion).

Bruce

 

[trickster]

It’s not only Native Americans who have these types of issues. When European missionaries came to conquer lands to bring the Gospel they brought a way that was foreign to the natives. Those who converted often had to reconcile their cultures and the old religion with Christianity.

Unfortunately, what happened with a lot of the lands that had West African slaves like in the West Indies is that the vodun from Africa was mixed with Christianity and this is why these days we have vodou, santeria, etc.

True Light I agree. Another example is “popular catholicism” in latin american countries that really are mixtures of two religions to create a new religion (syncretism)…that is not what I believe inculturation leads to…You are absolutely right in terms of the reconciliation process of “traditions in pre-contact cultures” coming into contact with chrisianity…chrisitanity was adoptive of new traditions (i.e. the traditions of the Babarians, the Celtics, etc.,) as those cultures re-invented themselves to absorb Christianity…

So what I have been talking about is nothing new under the sun…it is simply about our ability as aboriginal people to shape our catholic experience in the same way that the rest of the Catholic world has been doing the last 2000 year…nothing more, nothing less…I look forward to more of your thinking on this…

 

[odile53]

I have decided to put down tobacco (yes, I still do that, on nights of the full moon, except I say a rosary in additional to a traditional song, and wait till well after dark so my suburban neighbors don’t think I’ve taken leave of my sense!) and pray to Our Lady of Guadelupe, the only verified American Marian apparition, for further clarification and her personal intervention in this issue of reconciling our people’s very real needs with the Catholic Church. I’m at a bit of a disadvantage back home (on the rez) as the neo-Longhouse movement has really taken off in the last ten years especially. Many of the more casual Catholics have abandoned the Church, and have taken up what they believe are the old ways, to the point where even an “unbaptizing” ceremony exists now. At least, I have heard that when a childhood friend of mine told me that she had left the Church, affiliated herself with the Longhouse, and underwent such a ceremony.

The Haudenossaune, through their recorded (on wampum) history, have always been monotheistic. The Peacemaker, whose Onondaga name I will not record, was sent at the time of Hiawatha to bring the message of the Great Law of Peace and unify our people as five (later six) nations, and instruct them in the ways of the Creator, whose Onondaga name I will not record. Peacemaker was a semi-messianic person who was purportedly born of a virgin and (as the Jews of Christ’s era had hoped for them,) went to his people with a message of national unification which made my ancestors a strong native nation. About that time the medicine societies started, of which I know something, and they were primarily responsible for maintaining tradition. However, a couple of hundred years after first contact with the Europeans, the Six Nations again became dissolute, and about 150 years ago, more or less, the Seneca prophet Handsome Lake had a vision. It is primarily his vision and teachings which survive in the Longhouse nowadays.

The European influence on Handsome Lake was obvious in his visions: He was walking on a road, and encountered one who had been killed, who was now alive, and had deep wounds in his hands, feet, and side. This One asked Handsome Lake how many of his followers listened to his (Handsome Lake’s) message, to which he replied, “About half.” Then this One man said to him, “Very few of those who claim to follow Me actually do. If half of yours do, you are doing well.” There is also a vision of the end of time, and a belief in repentance and reform as necessary for salvation, and a very detailed and graphic view of “the house of the punisher,” or as we called it as kids, “Indian hell.”

My great aunt, a Carmelite nun, told me once when I was in high school, that unfortunately Handsome Lake interpreted the part of his vision where he encountered the crucified Christ, as a message that Christianity was too difficult for Indians to follow. She had been a young girl about a generation after the Longhouse revival took root, and had taken great exception to the thought that another native person would think that natives were too dumb to “get” Christianity. This thought only served to reinforce her faith in Christ and His Church, and, as they say, the rest is history. While Auntie’s sense of Longhouse cosmology may be a little “off,” her conclusion makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[odile53]

Please do remember, Bruce, I am biased: While I do have an appreciation for the culture of my ancestors, my faith is in Christ and His Church, which cannot deceive nor be deceived. We as a people had part of a great Truth in belief in One God, but some of us found out that there is much, much more than had initially been revealed to us.

 

[TrueLight]

I have decided to put down tobacco (yes, I still do that, on nights of the full moon,

Why do you put down tobacco?

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

I wish to say something about tobacco. These are my words and are not a responce to or for the Edler who mentioned putting down tobacco.
Tobacco is a high ranking herb or incense. What I say here should not be mimicked by those of outside of the particular Indigenous Cultures that pray with tobacco. Our tradition developed independant of Western or Asian traditions, but there is something of a similarity in using sage, sweetgrass or tobacco in prayer. Asian/European Judeo-Christianity has a long tradition of lighting votive lamps and candles and of offering herbal incense in individual and congregational worship.
Our tobacco tradition has the same sort of spiritual connection. Not every First Nation has a tobacco tradition, though I think a great many do. There is a right way and a not so right way to use tobacco. There is a sacredness in how wine can be used, and a respectable social way for wine and beer, etc in Western customs. And there are wretched abuses of alcohol spirits also. This is how tobacco is seen in the Native traditions.
I put out sage, or sometimes sweetgrass or tobacco also. I burn but a half leaf of sage here in the monastery, where as I am more liberal with it in prayers in Native settings. If any of you burned sage before or smelled it at maybe a Powwow, you may have heard that is smells similar to marijuana. Thus, I don’t want to bring improper jokes to a sacred incensing practice in the monastery.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

…there were prophecies amongst indigenous groups about a “white god” of sorts…

Bruce

Prophesies change over time, particularly in oral traditions. Many 1st Nations had a record keeping system (wampum, or paintings, birch bark scrolls). So, we were not 100% pure oral in handing on stories. A lot of training and helps were available. Racial identity by color would be strange if a society never saw “white” people. Prophesy is recieved and understood with a cultural setting or understanding. The telling adjusts as time goes on.

The Atlantic and Pacific coasts had visitors of across the seas come here long before wse found Columbus, or Lief son of Erik the Red Hair, and even before the Irish Monks that came to North America, from which the Bay Dwellers (Vikings) heard of the possibility. So white people were seen. I have my doubts that Native People were waiting for “gods” regardless of racial color. Most First Nations that I have had sustained relations with were for ever mono-theisitic (One God) believers.

I think translations were difficult in the early years and so Missionaries and Explorerers may have thought we had multiple gods. Spirit can mean Mystery or God or any Spirit in my language. Manitou is a spirit or mystery-being. Gitchi Manitou means Great Mystery (God - one and oly God). Midi can also be translated a couple ways: Sacred or Medicine. The concept can be divided in western languages, but is one and the same in ours.

By the way, some of our ancestors originating the translations between European and local languages and ways were under the impression the Europeans had many gods, (obvoiusly false gods as we Natives knew there was only One God).

Some very good studies and theological discussion, I think could bring about wonderful understanding.

.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

PS,
I like this particular thread. Everyone is so interesting and very respcting.

 

[trickster]

Please do remember, Bruce, I am biased: While I do have an appreciation for the culture of my ancestors, my faith is in Christ and His Church, which cannot deceive nor be deceived. We as a people had part of a great Truth in belief in One God, but some of us found out that there is much, much more than had initially been revealed to us.

Odile53 I prefer the word “focused” to describe what you call “bias”! You in my estimation have such a good balance between traditional thinking and catholicism…I admire that. I did not know about the unbaptizing ceremony in the Longhouse, never heard of that and yet one of my aunts was a member of the Longhouse…shows how much I paid attention in my younger days and in terms of what you are saying doesn’t Jesus himself say with respect to the Hebrew Bible “I have come not to abolish but to fulfill” and the idea of “I have come …(to do something?) so that people may live life more abundantly”…(forgive my fluid translation of scripture…I can’t exactly remember what it said but yeah…Christianity can be thought of as a fulfillment to the work fo the Holy Spirit iwth our people prior to the official arrival of the church…good thoughts as usual

Bruce

 

[trickster]

PS,
I like this particular thread. Everyone is so interesting and very respcting.

Well Br. Joshua…you are also very interesting and I appreciate very deeply your sharing as an Aboriginal person too…I don’t feel like the only Native saying what I am saying…I hear you and Odile53 so that is comforting to me.

Bruce

 

[odile53]

As Bruce knows, I am Haudenossaune (Seneca nation, Bear clan.) Tobacco has been a traditional medicine that is used in Longhouse ceremony, and we have used it for all time, where we were able to grow it. Cedar was also used frequently. I will, at times of deep meditation and prayer, burn tobacco under the night sky while in prayer, and use it in lieu of incense.

That being said, most of my family has been Roman Catholic since the time of the early Jesuit missionaries. In fact, I had a great uncle (who died when I was an infant) who was a Jesuit. I think Uncle Joseph was just about everywhere in the world in his assignments, from what I’ve been told! Two great aunts were religious Sisters (a Carmelite and a Sister of Charity who was a registered nurse.) And you couldn’t eat dinner at my grandmother’s home without feeling like you were being watched by the sheer number of saints’ statues that decorated her dining room. In other words, we’re pretty Catholic! Some of my family still lives on Tonawanda territory, and some still live on Akwesasne. Akwesasne is where I was born. I have a very deep devotion to Blessed Kateri Tekawitha, and ask that everyone here, if the spirit should move them, pray daily for her canonization. It has always been my belief that her canonization will bring many of my own people to the True Faith.

I know that her mother was Algonquin, but I think we Catholic Haudenossaune have co-opted her, just as her Mohawk father had taken her mother as a war prize! Iroquoian habits die hard–LOL! You can get some pretty interesting Catholic Indian arguments (and near fights! ) going about which nation claims her! Sorry, guys!

Brother Joshua, I am honored to make your acquaintance on this forum, it is a blessing to have a consecrated religious native on these boards. I have nothing but respect and honor for your witness. Me? I’m just a married, retired ballerina who recently graduated as a physical therapist!

For what it’s worth, Haudenossaune wampum records place the arrival of the Peacemaker and Hiawatha at about fifty to a hundred years before the time of Columbus (not that he actually landed anyplace other than Hispaniola!) So that would place those times at anyplace from 1400-1450 AD, as near as can be estimated. Before that, we were just a bunch of semi-nomadic hunters that managed to learn some agriculture, and we fought over the most ridiculous things, and based our identity on that.

 

[plefe]

I don’t know the name of the book but there is one that details the California Missions and their work with Native Americans. You might also contact the Diocese of San Diego and/or Los Angeles. Both would have historical record of the type that you are looking for,.

God Bless you for your thoughts here, but please read “Black Robe” and or see the movie. Look to the eastern US and Canadian Provinces to further education on Traditionalism and Native American Catholics. The Frenc/French-Canadian early history on the border, some good and some not-so-good, reflect much about Native American Catholicism and its movement towards the west. The eastern US is where it all started.

 

[trickster]

As Bruce knows, I am Haudenossaune (Seneca nation, Bear clan.) Tobacco has been a traditional medicine that is used in Longhouse ceremony, and we have used it for all time, where we were able to grow it. Cedar was also used frequently. I will, at times of deep meditation and prayer, burn tobacco under the night sky while in prayer, and use it in lieu of incense.

That being said, most of my family has been Roman Catholic since the time of the early Jesuit missionaries. In fact, I had a great uncle (who died when I was an infant) who was a Jesuit. I think Uncle Joseph was just about everywhere in the world in his assignments, from what I’ve been told! Two great aunts were religious Sisters (a Carmelite and a Sister of Charity who was a registered nurse.) And you couldn’t eat dinner at my grandmother’s home without feeling like you were being watched by the sheer number of saints’ statues that decorated her dining room. In other words, we’re pretty Catholic! Some of my family still lives on Tonawanda territory, and some still live on Akwesasne. Akwesasne is where I was born. I have a very deep devotion to Blessed Kateri Tekawitha, and ask that everyone here, if the spirit should move them, pray daily for her canonization. It has always been my belief that her canonization will bring many of my own people to the True Faith.

I know that her mother was Algonquin, but I think we Catholic Haudenossaune have co-opted her, just as her Mohawk father had taken her mother as a war prize! Iroquoian habits die hard–LOL! You can get some pretty interesting Catholic Indian arguments (and near fights! ) going about which nation claims her! Sorry, guys!

Brother Joshua, I am honored to make your acquaintance on this forum, it is a blessing to have a consecrated religious native on these boards. I have nothing but respect and honor for your witness. Me? I’m just a married, retired ballerina who recently graduated as a physical therapist!

For what it’s worth, Haudenossaune wampum records place the arrival of the Peacemaker and Hiawatha at about fifty to a hundred years before the time of Columbus (not that he actually landed anyplace other than Hispaniola!) So that would place those times at anyplace from 1400-1450 AD, as near as can be estimated. Before that, we were just a bunch of semi-nomadic hunters that managed to learn some agriculture, and we fought over the most ridiculous things, and based our identity on that.

Odile53, congrats on your graduation to being a physical therapist…it would be your second career I take it…I also echo your words for Brother Joshua, both a religious and aboriginal person! How cool is that? I laughed to myself with all the statutes that some of the older aboriginal people have…I am sure they had a statue for every person canonized by the church! Not to mention the statues of Mary and Micheal…yeah I hear you…

Bruce

 

[trickster]

God Bless you for your thoughts here, but please read “Black Robe” and or see the movie. Look to the eastern US and Canadian Provinces to further education on Traditionalism and Native American Catholics. The Frenc/French-Canadian early history on the border, some good and some not-so-good, reflect much about Native American Catholicism and its movement towards the west. The eastern US is where it all started.

It is interesting because I lived both in Quebec City and visited the first Jesuit mission just east of Quebec City as well as El Paso, Tx and the site of the oldest mission in North America (with the Fransiscans)…in the Salinas Mission as an example (New Mexico or Arizona) there is a fransican priory (or friary?) that has an archelogical form that the antrhopologist think served as a kiva and they believe that the Fransicans and Pueblo medicine people gathered together to talk about God…interesting pieces of light on evangelization in the “old church”…and in our own area, the Oblates were the ones that provided a mission on my mother’s reserve and they were an important part of the community…there are also a lot of great stories to tell about right relations between ABoriginal people and church members…

Yeah, I kind of agree with your point…just wanted to point out the mission in El Paso.though…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[odile53]

We (especially Catholic Haudenossaune) tend to think the Church in the Western Hemisphere started here (I live near the Canadian border,) but it may actually have started in South America, with the Spaniards. Admittedly, I haven’t researched that at all.

 

[waterbender]

@ Bruce,

lol, I hear ya! It’s amazing how Native America = heathen to so many people, even if you are Catholic and your tribe or family are all converts to Catholicism for centuries. haha. PM me and I will fill you in on some Native Sources of Catholicisim preVatican 2.

I hate to do so here for fear that it will be taken the wrong way. I honestly have little respect for most Native Americans who cling to their race like a title. It draws the wrong kind of crowd, and I absolutely hate it when you say Native and suddenly you are “different” and attract all the crazies. The worst type of crazies if you know what I mean.

No, no smoke house offers please!!! No sweat lodge offers please! lol

 

[odile53]

@ waterbender: I hear you. It always amazes me when I go back to Akwesasne the number of Indian wannabes that are hanging around the territory. Most people have learned to tolerate them good-naturedly.

One cousin of mine was condoled as a clan chief, and he instantly became very attractive to a lot of Caucasian girls. Mind you, he never was much to look at: Heavy, bad skin, and really bad teeth. I dragged him to my dentist once when he was in New York visiting me, and made him get them taken care of, under general anesthesia. At least he can eat properly now. So it was a bit of a shock when he suddenly was a chick magnet.

When he was dating his wife (who is Scotch-Irish but claims some Cherokee heritage, not enough to get a BIA card, but claims it’s there, why do they always pick on the poor Cherokees, anyways, but that’s another story,) she started holding what she called “full moon ceremonies.” It seemed to be some kind of women’s talking circle. I was still performing at the time and was on a two week leave from the company’s summer home in Saratoga Springs, and drove up north to see relatives. She contacted me about doing some sort of traditional medicine talk at this full moon ceremony, and I demurred. She pressed the issue, and tried to exact from me a promise to at least attend. To shut her up, I agreed, and promptly forgot all about it (honestly.) The night of the ceremony, she called me: Apparently, she and some of her nonnative girlfriends were sitting around a fire in the woods passing a talking stick when a very intoxicated local resident stumbled through into the circle, and slurred, “Why, you’re nothing but a bunch of white girls, aren’t you?” When she got back to wherever she was staying, she called me, very upset, told me she wished I had been there to set this woman straight, and then said, “Why would she say such a thing?”

Now, I would not have any desire whatsoever to deal with a drunken person near a fire in the woods at nighttime, regardless of their ethnicity or gender, and said so. Remember, at the time, I weighed a little less than a hundred pounds! She pressed on: “She would have left us alone if you had been there.” I finally said, when she expressed hurt about being called “a bunch of white girls,” “you know, theres nothing wrong with being white, or anything else. Everyone has to be from someplace on earth, unless your flying saucer is stashed someplace out in the woods. But I’ve always wondered why there are so many people who try to play Indian, especially with ceremonies. I mean, I’m Catholic, but aren’t there plenty of European spiritual traditions that you all can follow? Why do you borrow from us? I don’t mean any offense, I just want to point out that natives don’t have any corner on the spiritual market.”

She didn’t have any kind of real answer for me, just that she had always “felt” Indian. Whatever that means. To me, it meant that I was born in a poor section of the country, lived in a rural area until Dad got a great job in New York, and then we moved there. It meant going to a small Catholic school where there was one nun who never got over the Jesuit martyrs incident, and referred to us all as a bunch of heathens (obviously, a bad assignment for her!) It meant that at Christmastime you got a bunch of other people’s old toys and clothes, even if your family could afford new. Mom always hated that, and strictly forbade us from going to the school Christmas party where these things were distributed. In short, growing up native was nothing glamorous, and it always amuses me a little when the new agers et al try to make it into something that it never was, and they probably will never understand why it is nothing like what they think it is.

Ethnocentricity and insularity is not unique to us. I’d hazard a bet that most people do take pride, sometimes inordinately so, in their ethnic or even regional identity, regardless of what it is. But the funny thing is this: Strip away all the labels, and we all remain human beings, created in the image and likeness of none other than God Himself.