Natural Evil

[Achilles6129]

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss only natural evil. Why does it exist, why does God allow it, why doesn’t he intervene to stop it, etc. What does Scripture say and what does logic say?

 

[fhansen]

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss only natural evil. Why does it exist, why does God allow it, why doesn’t he intervene to stop it, etc. What does Scripture say and what does logic say?

Without communion with God, man dies a spiritual death. In order to know what evil really is, God has us experience it’s corruption in both the physical and spritual/moral realms. We know good and evil daily in our lives; we experience it both viscerally, directly via the body as well as mentally/spiritually. The evils of pain, suffering, and death and the evil of sin, with all its repercussions in our world. The good of pleasure, beauty, truth, love.

The ultimate evil, reflected in all its minor manifestations, is the separation from God which originated in Eden. He wants us to come to know our need for Him, in order to have life and life abundantly. Physical evil plays its own part in that process. JMO.

 

[Achilles6129]

Without communion with God, man dies a spiritual death. In order to know what evil really is, God has us experience it’s corruption in both the physical and spritual/moral realms. We know good and evil daily in our lives; we experience it both viscerally, directly via the body as well as mentally/spiritually. The evils of pain, suffering, and death and the evil of sin, with all its repercussions in our world. The good of pleasure, beauty, truth, love.

The ultimate evil, reflected in all its minor manifestations, is the separation from God which originated in Eden. He wants us to come to know our need for Him, in order to have life and life abundantly. Physical evil plays its own part in that process. JMO.

So why does natural evil happen to some people but not to others? Of course, I suppose to everyone it happens eventually, but apparently with differing degrees.

What does the Bible have to say about natural evil and its causes?

 

[fhansen]

So why does natural evil happen to some people but not to others? Of course, I suppose to everyone it happens eventually, but apparently with differing degrees.

What does the Bible have to say about natural evil and its causes?

As for natural disasters or “acts of God”, Jesus tells us in Luke 13 that the 18 men who were crushed when a tower fell in Siloam were not more guilty than anyone else; such acts aren’t punisment IOW. So they can certainly seem to be haphazard or random and perhaps they are. Scripture also tells us that the rain falls and the sun rises on the good and bad alike.

But nothing happens without God’s knowing it and sometimes in hindsight we can see how events have shaped our lives-for the better-even when it didn’t seem like it at the time. Either way we’re not living in Eden or heaven. Many dangers lurk here even as we often seek to find happiness in the earthly things we find at our disposal in this world, sometimes almost oblivious to the temporary nature of it all while God wants us to covet eternal treasure.

The evils here, though, can help turn our orientation away from self-and towards God as they educate us in what life without Him, without His immediate presence and total providence and control would be like. Hell is another name for the complete absence of God in our lives, the ultimate evil. In heaven all is subjugated to and in union with Him. Here, in this world, we exist in a state halfway in between.

 

[Achilles6129]

As for natural disasters or “acts of God”, Jesus tells us in Luke 13 that the 18 men who were crushed when a tower fell in Siloam were not more guilty than anyone else; such acts aren’t punisment IOW. So they can certainly seem to be haphazard or random and perhaps they are. Scripture also tells us that the rain falls and the sun rises on the good and bad alike.

Good observation regarding the tower of Siloam. I wonder, however, about the natural evils said to be punishments from God in the OT, particularly in places like Deut. 28 and Lev. 26. However, there doesn’t seem to be a way to discern natural evils as punishments from God or as random events outside of Biblical prophecy such as the book of Revelation, for example.

 

[Richca]

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss only natural evil. Why does it exist, why does God allow it, why doesn’t he intervene to stop it, etc. What does Scripture say and what does logic say?

Natural evil in regards to human beings and evils that befall them is the result and consequence of sin. They are punishments inflicted by God’s justice because of sin; either due to original sin, one’s own personal sins, or the sins of the world together. It all began with the first sin of the human race from our first parents which we call original sin and which we are all born with on our souls. Adam and Eve transmitted to us a fallen human nature which was a consequence of their disobedience to God in eating of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This fallen human nature is now subjected to death, disease, suffering, and such like evils. God did not create Adam and Eve in this state for he created them to be immortal, happy, free from suffering, and not subject to the evils we now face as long as they freely submitted to God’s will and commandment.

God punishes and disciplines us because He loves us as it is written “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline” (Proverbs 13:24). Loving parents will punish and discipline their children if they do wrong. God is our Father who lovingly punishes and disciplines us, his children while we are on earth, if we do wrong to correct us (for those of us who have the will to repent of our sins; for sinners who do not want to repent, God’s punishments are simply that, punishments). If God didn’t care about us, then he probably wouldn’t care to punish us for doing wrong. This kind of God is not the God of divine revelation and Holy Scripture.

The Scripture says “Good and evil, life and death,
poverty and riches—all are from the LORD” (Sirach 11:14).

And in Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create the darkness,
I make well-being and create woe;
I, the LORD, do all these things.”

 

[Richca]

As for natural disasters or “acts of God”, Jesus tells us in Luke 13 that the 18 men who were crushed when a tower fell in Siloam were not more guilty than anyone else; such acts aren’t punisment IOW. So they can certainly seem to be haphazard or random and perhaps they are. Scripture also tells us that the rain falls and the sun rises on the good and bad alike.

Just a couple of my thoughts here.In my reading about the felled tower of Siloam in the gospels, Jesus does not necessarily imply that this “act of God” was not a punishment. For Jesus says “do you think they were more guilty,” which appears to me to imply that they were guilty and unless we repent we will all perish as they did.

The verses before the tower of Siloam it is said in the gospel:
"At that time some people who were present there told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate* had mingled with the blood of their sacrifices.
He said to them in reply, “Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were greater sinners than all other Galileans?
By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did! (Luke 13: 1-3). Here Jesus says “greater sinners” concerning the Galileans who suffered in this way which appears to me again to indicate a link between sinning and suffering in that way. At the very least, I don’t think we can say in the very words Jesus uses that there is no link “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

And then following the verses about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the blood of their sacrifices and the felling of the tower of Siloam, Jesus follows this with the parable about the barren fig tree in Luke which runs thus:

And he told them this parable: “There once was a person who had a fig tree planted in his orchard, and when he came in search of fruit on it but found none,

he said to the gardener, ‘For three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree but have found none. [So] cut it down. Why should it exhaust the soil?’

He said to him in reply, ‘Sir, leave it for this year also, and I shall cultivate the ground around it and fertilize it;

it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’” (Luke 13: 6-9).

If we tie this parable to the preceding verses about the Galileans and the felled tower of Siloam, it seems to me that Jesus appears to be saying that the Galileans and those 18 who died from the felled tower of Siloam were “cut” down from want of bearing fruit.

It appears to me that Jesus is just reiterating the teaching of the Old Testament where the inspired authors see God’s hand in everything.

Now, I’m not suggesting that all the people who may die in some natural calamity or disaster are mowed down because they are unrepentent sinners or for lack of bearing fruit. It may happen that some may die that are actually good, God fearing people and God only knows why he took them at this time. But, no event in the world happens haphazardly or randomly but all takes place according to the wise providence of God.

 

[fhansen]

Here’s another passage to consider, from Matt 9:

**As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. **

I think there’s an almost natural human tendency to assume that a person deserves their bad fate, while others deserve their health or material blessings, etc, even though neither are necessarily so.

 

[tonyrey]

So why does natural evil happen to some people but not to others? Of course, I suppose to everyone it happens eventually, but apparently with differing degrees.

It is impossible for everyone to live in the same circumstances from birth till death! Some people are bound to suffer more than others

What does the Bible have to say about natural evil and its causes?

St Paul’s words “Nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord” implies that tragedies and misfortunes are an inevitable part of life on earth. Jesus said “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.” In other words God permits natural evil because it is the result of natural laws which cannot cater for every contingency. Sooner or later there are bound to be accidents and disasters in an immensely complex world. There is truth in the saying that it takes all sorts to make a world because variety is not only the spice of life but its very essence! No two individuals are identical because they cannot be in the same place at the same time…

 

[cfauster]

The following seems relevant to this thread:

… a morally neutral chaos has a creative place within God’s dynamic world, with both the potential for good and bad for creatures. This element of disharmony is an integral and essential part of a world that is in the process of ‘becoming.’ Volcanoes are needed to replenish our atmosphere in order to sustain life; this requires a planet with active geology. The Earth has plate tectonics with earthquakes and tsunamis. Our sun-heated atmosphere sustains life, but it also gives hurricanes, tornadoes, and cyclones. These messy, disorderly natural disasters have a role to play in our dynamic world. Order and chaos are inseparable; the violence of physical processes and the birth-death-decay cycle are features of God’s good world. Yet these events also have the capacity to bring suffering to humans and animals—even for righteous people, such as Job. While untamed chaos has a God-ordained place within creation, God nevertheless declares all this as “very good” (Gen. 1:21, 31). - from “God’s Good Chaos.”

 

[tonyrey]

The following seems relevant to this thread:

… a morally neutral chaos has a creative place within God’s dynamic world, with both the potential for good and bad for creatures. This element of disharmony is an integral and essential part of a world that is in the process of ‘becoming.’ Volcanoes are needed to replenish our atmosphere in order to sustain life; this requires a planet with active geology. The Earth has plate tectonics with earthquakes and tsunamis. Our sun-heated atmosphere sustains life, but it also gives hurricanes, tornadoes, and cyclones. These messy, disorderly natural disasters have a role to play in our dynamic world. Order and chaos are inseparable; the violence of physical processes and the birth-death-decay cycle are features of God’s good world. Yet these events also have the capacity to bring suffering to humans and animals—even for righteous people, such as Job. While untamed chaos has a God-ordained place within creation, God nevertheless declares all this as “very good” (Gen. 1:21, 31). - from “God’s Good Chaos.”

Thank you for that excellent reference. Natural disasters lead to injustice for all those who are deprived of their God-given right to live in this world and opportunity to develop their capacity for love. That is why Jesus told us those who suffer on earth will be more than compensated in Heaven. He chose to suffer and die for us not only to liberate us from evil but also to give us hope and consolation. We need never feel alone after He experienced our pain and desolation. Even in our final agony we can remember He loved us on the Cross and is telling us “Today you will be with me in Paradise”.

 

[thinkandmull]

Natural evil in regards to human beings and evils that befall them is the result and consequence of sin. They are punishments inflicted by God’s justice because of sin; either due to original sin, one’s own personal sins, or the sins of the world together. It all began with the first sin of the human race from our first parents which we call original sin and which we are all born with on our souls. Adam and Eve transmitted to us a fallen human nature which was a consequence of their disobedience to God in eating of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This fallen human nature is now subjected to death, disease, suffering, and such like evils. God did not create Adam and Eve in this state for he created them to be immortal, happy, free from suffering, and not subject to the evils we now face as long as they freely submitted to God’s will and commandment.

God punishes and disciplines us because He loves us as it is written “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline” (Proverbs 13:24). Loving parents will punish and discipline their children if they do wrong. God is our Father who lovingly punishes and disciplines us, his children while we are on earth, if we do wrong to correct us (for those of us who have the will to repent of our sins; for sinners who do not want to repent, God’s punishments are simply that, punishments). If God didn’t care about us, then he probably wouldn’t care to punish us for doing wrong. This kind of God is not the God of divine revelation and Holy Scripture.

The Scripture says “Good and evil, life and death,
poverty and riches—all are from the LORD” (Sirach 11:14).

And in Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create the darkness,
I make well-being and create woe;
I, the LORD, do all these things.”

“They are punishments inflicted by God’s justice because of sin; either due to original sin”. I disagree that original sin deserves pain. If you didn’t choose it, it’s not your fault

 

[thinkandmull]

The assumption (not a bad word) of Christians is that allowing pain creates latter on a better good than creating us initially as angels or literally any other situation where there would be no pain. Is this defensible from logic, or do we simply have to say we don’t know everything and leave it to God?

 

[thinkandmull]

I don’t believe pain is necessary for us to know something is wrong with our bodies. Any sensation could tell us that, if our bodies were different. Nor is free will rejected if there is no pain. A sword could always turn into a flower before a murderer stabs, although knowledge that this would happen be taken away from the murderer while he contemplates his deed. Now God doesn’t have to create every good because good goes on for infinity, but there must be a threshold, there must be a creation where there is at least no pain in order for God to be good. However, pain perhaps is allowed so we can learn to forgive and accept. However, I can see how people have a problem understanding how there is no other possible situation in which these goods can be obtained, in fact that other possible worlds in which there is no pain but just delights would be inferior to the end result of this world (if everyone did good). I too wonder about this mystery. If those worlds are inferior, what of greater worlds than the one we have in which there was no pain. Again, God must create such a super-good world in order to be good. Yet, when we consider the world we live it, we must accept that pain is somehow necessary in order to gain the ultimate good as a universe.

(I am only speaking of pain of the innocent)

 

[inocente]

Natural evil in regards to human beings and evils that befall them is the result and consequence of sin. They are punishments inflicted by God’s justice because of sin; either due to original sin, one’s own personal sins, or the sins of the world together. …]

God punishes and disciplines us because He loves us as it is written “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline” (Proverbs 13:24). Loving parents will punish and discipline their children if they do wrong. God is our Father who lovingly punishes and disciplines us, his children while we are on earth, if we do wrong to correct us

Every minute of every day, a child under the age of five dies somewhere from diarrhea due to bad sanitation - unicef.org/media/media_68359.html

According to your theology, that appears to mean that God lovingly punishes those children with painful undignified deaths to lovingly correct them. And since they die as part of His loving providence, we must not interfere, we must not fund better sanitation and healthcare, we must not do anything that might undo God’s loving justice.

You may want to reconsider that theology.

 

[thinkandmull]

Saying volcano’s produce good to the environment and are there good makes God impotent. He can make the environment better with pain being caused to the innocent. But we must gather from reality that a greater good can result from pain. Forgiveness of assault and greater peace in heaven knowing that pain is over ("every tear will be wiped away). I don’t think God can allow pain to a child just for the reason that the child can latter accept that it happened merely because God allowed it; I may be wrong, I go back and forth on that point. But God must be GOOD and not impotent

 

[Achilles6129]

Every minute of every day, a child under the age of five dies somewhere from diarrhea due to bad sanitation - unicef.org/media/media_68359.html

According to your theology, that appears to mean that God lovingly punishes those children with painful undignified deaths to lovingly correct them. And since they die as part of His loving providence, we must not interfere, we must not fund better sanitation and healthcare, we must not do anything that might undo God’s loving justice.

You may want to reconsider that theology.

So here’s the question: why would God allow natural evil to happen to someone who can’t disobey his commands?

 

[thinkandmull]

So here’s the question: why would God allow natural evil to happen to someone who can’t disobey his commands?

To give them a greater happiness latter. He doesn’t cause the pain though. Does He sustain it in creation? Probably the devil does actually

 

[ynotzap]

Hi all,

This is a thread to discuss only natural evil. Why does it exist, why does God allow it, why doesn’t he intervene to stop it, etc. What does Scripture say and what does logic say?

What is Natural Evil?- Moral evil, I can understand. Do you mean earth quakes, flooding, fires, disease etc.? Activities in nature? Evil is considered the absence of good. Can any activity in nature be considered evil? God is the author of all natural activity isn’t He? Can God commit evil? Flooding can take many lives, and so can fire, and God causes it in nature. He can give life, and He can take it, is that evil? It may not be something that man wants, or desires, and if he doesn’t does that make natural activity evil? Evil can not be applied to the natural activity found in nature, for nature is indifferent to evil, or morality. Natural activity that causes human death can be considered as punishment for the immoral activity of intelligent agents. (humans), but not necessarily. God can draw good from the activity of nature, and from human immoral acts, that is why He allows them. He can draw good from natural activities even though many may die, dying in itself is not evil, although it is a consequence of an immoral act done by an intelligent human inherited by the human race. Natural acts, no matter how catastrophic they are to humans is not evil in itself.

 

[tonyrey]

So here’s the question: why would God allow natural evil to happen to someone who can’t disobey his commands?

Because natural evil is not necessarily related to moral evil. If we become victims of disease or a disaster it is not because we are sinners but because we happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, didn’t foresee what was going to happen or were unable to prevent it. The Catechism points out that the drawbacks of life are inevitable because of our limitations as well as our sins and moral defects.