Natural Evil

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The mystery of natural evil has always perplexed theologians, and has been a cross for many to bear. But it has never been a teaching of Christ that God is indifferent to our suffering.

Natural evil is not a mystery at all to atheists. To atheists natural evils only signify that Mother Nature, having no soul of her own, must be indifferent to the sufferings of her offspring.
 
Is there any real EVIDENCE that EACH and EVERY child who dies in serious pain will go to heaven? Even the unbaptized ones? The church does not have such an evidence. Because what you say is just wishful thinking. Many of these children are newborns and toddlers, who have no concept of “offering up” their suffering. They simply suffer and die.

I suggest you type in “suffering children” into Google, and then click on the “Images” option. Look at them and explain how does that horrible suffering point to God’s eternal “love” for these children. If it would be God’s will that they all should enjoy the heavenly bliss, he could have just “taken” them without the suffering. As soon as their conception occurred, they could have followed the millions of miscarriages, even without the implantation into the uterus.

The point is that this suffering cannot be “justified” by the assumed “eternal bliss”, UNLESS that current suffering is logically necessary for bringing those children into heaven. In other words, without that suffering not even God could take those children to the eternal bliss of heaven. Because God can do whatever he pleases, except creating logical contradictions.

No one should be so heartless to say that this world “does not matter”, that the current suffering is “no big deal” when compared to the assumed eternal bliss. The catholic church definitely does NOT say anything like that.
I would like to meditate on this issue more, but your post has me musing. Could not suffering in this world, even suffering by a not understanding two year old, still have transformative properties that carry over into the next life? It doesn’t necessarily follow that we enter the next life at the same intellectual development level we have when we leave. What might not be understood here by the toddler may very well be understood by the same soul once “on the other side” and be important in the uniqueness of that soul as opposed to others.

A parent doesn’t hold their child back from experiencing the world. For limited beings such as ourselves, the trials and tribulations we face are not just discipline and punishment, but ultimately part of what shapes us into who we are. They are part of how we grow, and while not the only way we grow, there might only be some ways in which we grow of which suffering as a part. I’m sure there are many trials and difficult periods we would not undo now if we had the choice, because we wouldn’t be the same person we are today without them. Could it not be the same for all of our experiences once we cross over? Once we have the full context?

This doesn’t mean we seek or inflict suffering on others; suffering, whether my own or another’s, can bring out the best in us as we seek to overcome it. But neither do we give up our principles in the face of it.

I think we also must remember that we are one body, not only individuals. We don’t suffer alone, nor does suffering only affect one person, but the whole body of Christ.

Just some thoughts.
 
The mystery of natural evil has always perplexed theologians, and has been a cross for many to bear. But it has never been a teaching of Christ that God is indifferent to our suffering.
Unfortunately if the “teaching” is contradicted by reality… one of them must be discarded. Which one? :hmmm:
Natural evil is not a mystery at all to atheists. To atheists natural evils only signify that Mother Nature, having no soul of her own, must be indifferent to the sufferings of her offspring.
That is correct. As the saying goes: “Guano happens”. There is one funny thing. When something “good” happens, it is always attributed to God’s benevolent action. But when the proverbial substance hits the fan, it always poor “Mother Nature” is the one that gets blamed. Why the inconsistency?
 
Unfortunately if the “teaching” is contradicted by reality… one of them must be discarded. Which one? :hmmm:
There is a difference between not understanding and a contradiction. Does reality at the quantum level contradict reality at the macro level? Or do we just not understand how to bridge the gap yet?
 
That is correct. As the saying goes: “Guano happens”. There is one funny thing. When something “good” happens, it is always attributed to God’s benevolent action. But when the proverbial substance hits the fan, it always poor “Mother Nature” is the one that gets blamed. Why the inconsistency?
Atheists can’t blame God. 😃

But, along with Catholics, they can blame Mother Nature. 😉
 
I would like to meditate on this issue more, but your post has me musing. Could not suffering in this world, even suffering by a not understanding two year old, still have transformative properties that carry over into the next life? It doesn’t necessarily follow that we enter the next life at the same intellectual development level we have when we leave. What might not be understood here by the toddler may very well be understood by the same soul once “on the other side” and be important in the uniqueness of that soul as opposed to others.

A parent doesn’t hold their child back from experiencing the world. For limited beings such as ourselves, the trials and tribulations we face are not just discipline and punishment, but ultimately part of what shapes us into who we are. They are part of how we grow, and while not the only way we grow, there might only be some ways in which we grow of which suffering as a part. I’m sure there are many trials and difficult periods we would not undo now if we had the choice, because we wouldn’t be the same person we are today without them. Could it not be the same for all of our experiences once we cross over? Once we have the full context?

This doesn’t mean we seek or inflict suffering on others; suffering, whether my own or another’s, can bring out the best in us as we seek to overcome it. But neither do we give up our principles in the face of it.

I think we also must remember that we are one body, not only individuals. We don’t suffer alone, nor does suffering only affect one person, but the whole body of Christ.

Just some thoughts.
Obviously I cannot say that it is IMPOSSIBLE. The trouble is that “MAYBE”, and “PERHAPS” and “COULD BE” are not arguments. If you could present a logical line of reasoning to show that the toddler and her parents and relatives would all be “worse off”, if she would not have to endure the suffering and untimely death, then let’s hear it. But “maybe” does not count. And not just ONE… all of them!

Furthermore, we cannot consider the (very dubious) positive affects on others. That would mean that the suffering of the toddler is being used as a TOOL for the betterment of other people. And the alleged “dignity” of humans cannot allow that one should be used as a “tool”.

The only possible excuse would be that God is unable to bring the toddler into heaven without the suffering. And that is contradicted by God’s alleged omnipotence.
 
There is a difference between not understanding and a contradiction. Does reality at the quantum level contradict reality at the macro level? Or do we just not understand how to bridge the gap yet?
Unfortunately one cannot “test” God. 🙂 Or when you “test” him, he will cheat and makes sure that the test will come back with a negative result…
 
Obviously I cannot say that it is IMPOSSIBLE. The trouble is that “MAYBE”, and “PERHAPS” and “COULD BE” are not arguments. If you could present a logical line of reasoning to show that the toddler and her parents and relatives would all be “worse off”, if she would not have to endure the suffering and untimely death, then let’s hear it. But “maybe” does not count. And not just ONE… all of them!

Furthermore, we cannot consider the (very dubious) positive affects on others. That would mean that the suffering of the toddler is being used as a TOOL for the betterment of other people. And the alleged “dignity” of humans cannot allow that one should be used as a “tool”.

The only possible excuse would be that God is unable to bring the toddler into heaven without the suffering. And that is contradicted by God’s alleged omnipotence.
If there are other good reasons to believe in God, and no demonstratable contradiction between natural evil and God’s benevolence, then “maybe” and possibilities are certainly sufficient. Only if there was a contradiction and if there were no other good arguments for the existence of a benevolent God would it be unreasonable and contradictory to hold that the two could exist simultaneously. You just said that you cannot show it to be impossible.

I also don’t see why we can’t consider that there are beneficial aspects for the community. As a stand alone reason it may be insufficient, but if such trials are also beneficial to the recipient then there’s nothing wrong with considering the communal aspects in addition to that.
 
The logical follow up to my post would seem to be, “So, can Wesrock provide other “good reasons” to believe in a benevolent God?” I’m going to leave you hanging on that one, first because that’s off-topic and second because I don’t have the time and I am still a student myself. If you like, please feel free to point out that I haven’t provided you with a good reason. But, that aside, if I were able to provide you with a good reason to believe in a benevolent God, would you agree with my point?
 
Is there any real EVIDENCE that EACH and EVERY child who dies in serious pain will go to heaven? Even the unbaptized ones? The church does not have such an evidence. Because what you say is just wishful thinking. Many of these children are newborns and toddlers, who have no concept of “offering up” their suffering. They simply suffer and die.

I suggest you type in “suffering children” into Google, and then click on the “Images” option. Look at them and explain how does that horrible suffering point to God’s eternal “love” for these children. If it would be God’s will that they all should enjoy the heavenly bliss, he could have just “taken” them without the suffering. As soon as their conception occurred, they could have followed the millions of miscarriages, even without the implantation into the uterus.

The point is that this suffering cannot be “justified” by the assumed “eternal bliss”, UNLESS that current suffering is logically necessary for bringing those children into heaven. In other words, without that suffering not even God could take those children to the eternal bliss of heaven. Because God can do whatever he pleases, except creating logical contradictions.

No one should be so heartless to say that this world “does not matter”, that the current suffering is “no big deal” when compared to the assumed eternal bliss. The catholic church definitely does NOT say anything like that.
God is not subject to a Google search, nor is it the ultimate source of knowledge. God gives life to every living thing, and a soul to every living human, babies included (this has to be said in consideration of the ignorance of those who abort infants) so dont get on your high horse when it comes to speaking about the suffering of babies The Church has always been diametrically apposed to abortion, nothing new. God knows the future of every human, and if He take that life, it is in love and mercy, whether we understand it or not. Who knows the mind of the Lord, except those He reveals it to, and even those can only know in part for they can not contain the full knowledge of God. A child does not have to have knowledge of the reason of it’s suffering, and neither does an adult. But those the trust in God’s mercy, justice and love, accept it willingly. If one does not have this Faith, I wouldn’t expect him to understand, he is not disposed to understanding, he can’t give what he doesn’t have. Who knows the mind of God, except those He reveals it to. Life and death has always matter to the Church, and there are many saints that proved it, One is Mother Theresa who picked up dead bodies in a wheel barrel and buried them with dignity. There were many orphanages opened by Mother Cabrini, the Church’s history is witness to this truth, and there are many others. You should do some research before making erroneous statements.
 
That would be irrational. One cannot “blame” the wind for breaking off a dried branch, which falls on your car and damages it. Only a conscious act can be blamed.
So you don’t think famines, floods, tornados, plagues, etc, are slightly evil? Even though they cause so much misery and starvation among mankind? Do you think they are good forces of nature? Or do you think God caused them? Which is it?
 
God is not subject to a Google search
The suffering, however, is. I wonder what is your reaction when you look at those pictures? Is it: “glory be to God, because that is the best thing that could have happened to those kids? We don’t know the reason, but God has infinite wisdom and he decided that those children are better off in their suffering and death?” Do you say (or think): “let’s rejoice because God decided to let those children die in horrible pain, and as such that is the best outcome for them?”

Somehow I have my doubts. The church tries very hard to remedy and/or prevent those sufferings (along with other agencies) which means that we do NOT accept that this fate is in the best interest of those who suffer that indignity. Maybe you do. But I think you are in a very small “crowd”.
 
So you don’t think famines, floods, tornados, plagues, etc, are slightly evil?
No, they are not “evil”. They are bad, very bad, but not “evil”. When a cat “plays” with a mouse, it is not an “evil” act. Evil is reserved to volitional actions, where one party inflicts unnecessary pain and suffering on someone else, who is capable to experiencing pain and suffering.

I reject the catholic definition of “evil is a privation of good”. According that definition the cat would be “evil”. The lack of rain causing a drought would be “evil”. A overabundance of rain causing a deluge would be “evil”. The lightning causing a fire would be “evil”. And that definition is irrational.
Even though they cause so much misery and starvation among mankind? Do you think they are good forces of nature? Or do you think God caused them? Which is it?
Nature does not “care”. It is unable to “care”. If there is a God, then he has a lot to answer for. But of course there is no sign of that.
 
The cat wouldn’t be evil in that scenario. The cat is acting according to its nature. This seems like a misunderstanding of the Catholic position.
 
The suffering, however, is. I wonder what is your reaction when you look at those pictures? Is it: “glory be to God, because that is the best thing that could have happened to those kids? We don’t know the reason, but God has infinite wisdom and he decided that those children are better off in their suffering and death?” Do you say (or think): “let’s rejoice because God decided to let those children die in horrible pain, and as such that is the best outcome for them?”

Somehow I have my doubts. The church tries very hard to remedy and/or prevent those sufferings (along with other agencies) which means that we do NOT accept that this fate is in the best interest of those who suffer that indignity. Maybe you do. But I think you are in a very small “crowd”.
It is sad to view pictures of babies, children and adults suffering and dying, it is a fact of life every one will suffer and die. And a as Catholics understand, it all happens as a consequence of sin, that’s when evil came into the world, with help from evil forces, which you apparently do not believe exist. the Church is very well known to counter the sufferings of humanity by extending it’s humanitarian services all over the world, even dying for it. No, I for one do not desire these tragedies to happen, and assist where ever I can. But there is something above your comprehension, that Christians believe, and that is, if it happened it is God’s will, and He can do no wrong. And if one’s spirituality is deep enough, give God praise for His actions because His love, and providence, and wisdom, and justice is above our comprehension, and not subject to our fallible, limited comprehension, and arrogant judgement. There are answers beyond our comprehension, and there are answers we acquire by comprehension within our limitations, we need the wisdom and humility to know the difference.
 
Tamint is a two-year old girl, one of those who die every minute of every day from diarrhea due to bad sanitation. Let’s go back to your original post (#6), and substitute her name wherever you wrote “human beings” or “us” -
"Natural evil in regards to Tamint and evils that befall her is the result and consequence of sin. They are punishments inflicted by God’s justice because of sin; either due to original sin, her own personal sins, or the sins of the world together. …]
 
One cannot “blame” the wind for breaking off a dried branch, which falls on your car and damages it. Only a conscious act can be blamed.
“blame” is a word that denotes the cause of some harmful effect. There is nothing in the dictionary that says the cause must be conscious in order to be blamed.

Another word to describe Mother Nature is indifferent. So now I suppose you are going to say mother is not indifferent because Nature is not conscious?

Well, o.k. but you certainly can’t think the universe has one jot of compassion for natural evils that impact us all. That means you live in a universe without meaning or purpose, because there is in your atheist ideology no one to govern or care whether the universe lives or dies.

If you don’t like this conclusion, blame Mother Nature who created you and who will bury you in the dead dung heap of history.
 
No, they are not “evil”. They are bad, very bad, but not “evil”. When a cat “plays” with a mouse, it is not an “evil” act. Evil is reserved to volitional actions, where one party inflicts unnecessary pain and suffering on someone else, who is capable to experiencing pain and suffering.

I reject the catholic definition of “evil is a privation of good”. According that definition the cat would be “evil”. The lack of rain causing a drought would be “evil”. A overabundance of rain causing a deluge would be “evil”. The lightning causing a fire would be “evil”. And that definition is irrational.

Nature does not “care”. It is unable to “care”. If there is a God, then he has a lot to answer for. But of course there is no sign of that.
But you seem to blame God for everything. Interesting for an atheist.
 
Thank you all for the rich theological and scriptural reflections. Here is a philosophical thought.

It seems that the problem is the following: while it is true that natural evil is only evil in so far as it affects humans or things humans care about (after all, we measure natural disasters by death toll and property damage), how could an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving God allow apparently random suffering and death, especially of the most innocent among us?

One logical solution is to declare that there is no God, or at least one who does not care, does not see our plight, or is powerless to do anything about it. The unfortunate consequence of this position is to affirm that life is fundamentally unfair, that justice is an illusion, and therefore man’s most coherent behavior would be to either grab for as much power, pleasure, and possessions as he can before his life is spent, even at the expense of other men, or to give up on life and allow despair to push him into suicide (as many philosophers have done).

The second logical solution is to affirm that life as we experience it IS unfair, and therefore if justice, order, and reason are indeed real, there MUST NECESSARILY BE a God who judges each in the next life according to his life on earth. A two year old dying of dysentery is unfair. A two year old dying of dysentery and rewarded with eternal joy is quite just.

I therefore state that the problem of natural evil is not a proof that God does not exist, but exactly the contrary, a necessary proof of the existence of a just, loving, omniscient, and all-powerful Judge.
Sorry but this doesn’t work either :). Continuing with the example of the fictional Tamint, the two-year old girl who dies from a waterborne disease as does some real child in the world every minute of every day - one child dying once would be sufficient proof, there is no need for another to die every minute of every day, as if God keeps forgetting he already made the proof. Enough with the proofs already.

And anyway it’s arguable whether an injustice can be righted by a later compensation, since a toddler dying from diarrhea can never be undone. It also paints God as being powerless to prevent suffering, and only able to pay out on the insurance later.

The issue with many of the theologies expressed on the thread is that in one way or another they try to justify suffering, and that puts them at odds with our normal human reaction, that Tamint’s suffering is unjust, and we ought to try to prevent or alleviate such suffering.

Some say Tamint is to blame for her own suffering, as if karma is getting her back for sins from previous lives. Some say her parents are to blame, as if no one should have a family so long as there’s any chance their child may catch a disease. Some say we’re all to blame, as if primitive man invented viruses, bacteria and parasites. (Elsewhere, there were those who claimed Hurricane Katrina was God’s wrath against the morals of New Orleans). All these argue that by intervening to alleviate suffering we’re working against natural justice.

Others claim suffering is good for Tamint’s soul, as if it’s some kind of reward to die of diarrhea aged two, and we are stealing away such rewards by intervening to provide good sanitation.

And so on. Contrast all these attempts to justify suffering with the parable of the Good Samaritan. The respected priest and Levite, driven by their ideas of God and cleanliness, walk on by. They won’t get to heaven (‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me’). But the Samaritan, who is from a tribe Jesus knows full well his audience detests, “as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him”. The Samaritan never stops to consider whether the man’s suffering is justified, even though it was by the action of men (perhaps they thought he deserved it for his past crimes). The Samaritan is motivated not by ideology or justification, but by simple humanity, the humanity shown by any child (and he then acts with the competence of a mature adult).

Imho any theology which seeks to explain natural evil must not work against that.
 
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