Natural Family Planning... "Just Reasons?"

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We do NOT chart. We just have sex when we both feel like it. We do not worry about getting pregnant or not. We just love each other and trust that if we are to have another child it will come when God wants it.
BUT if she’s infertile then you are using sex for pleasure only. You just said no animals have sex just for the fun of it there for its wrong. If she is infertile then your by your own logic are going against natural law…
We had a four year break after our first three children and we never used NFP. It just so happened that we had a break. Now we have two more children. We just leave it up to God to decide.
I had a feeling this was the impetus “Just look at me I’ve been a pious Catholic and never used NFP cause I trust in Gods providence fully and look how He is taking care of us.” Well Grats you. Some people do have take prudence in consideration when adding to their family.
 
So many points, so little time . . .

first, biologybrain, great post (#53, I think), and you will be in my prayers. Hang in there.

Moon, could you respond to LNJ’s point about only exercising the marital embrace in fertile times? If you are engaging in the act when procreation is not possible, isn’t that engaging in the act for pleasure only, which was condemned in your view by Pius X? In prior days, perhaps that information (when your bride was fertile) was not readily available, but it is now. How is your marital relations in the infertile period objectively different than a couple’s who is making use of the infertile period for serious reasons? How is it objectively different than the couple using that knowledge for trivial reasons/with a contraceptive mindset?

FYI, my bride and I are one of the lay couples that teach NFP which you seem to think are inferior to a priest. We are trained by the Diocese, and I assure you we do discuss the discernment part. We also teach pre-cana and emphasize it there as well.

FYI #2, for a while, every couple that we taught wanted to learn NFP for achieving pregnancy, not postponing. We had had our own infertility issues, and fortunately were able to empathize more with those couples who were struggling to conceive. God is great, to use our struggle to reach others, no?

FYI #3, we have 3 now, two adopted, one of a different race, whose birth mom was a young teen raped by a half-brother, ages 5,4, and 2. Child #2 is 9 and a half months younger than #1-- we had just brought adopted girl #1 home, knew we were fertile, but took advantage of a rare moment of quiet and trusted in God, who blessed us with the now 4 year old.

FYI #4, we have been married nine years, and we did use NFP with a somewhat contraceptive mindset at first. Developing a relationship with the Lord was a process - - I was a convert from nonpracticing Methodism. We were learning about each other and our prayer life as a married couple, how to discern, etc., etc. The point is that even the imperfect practice of NFP draws the couple into a deeper and more personal relationship with God. It has taken study of the theology of the body to really help us see where we are coming from and how we were formed. I’m not here to tell you we have it all figured out, but we are on the journey. We would love to be blessed with more, but we will be discerning God’s will for us. I was just unemployed for a few weeks, so that was not the ideal time to add to our family, in our discernment.

Moon, your trust in the Lord is awesome and inspirational too. As you can tell a little from my story above, I am well aware that God will not be outdone in generosity.
 
BUT if she’s infertile then you are using sex for pleasure only. You just said no animals have sex just for the fun of it there for its wrong. If she is infertile then your by your own logic are going against natural law…

I had a feeling this was the impetus “Just look at me I’ve been a pious Catholic and never used NFP cause I trust in Gods providence fully and look how He is taking care of us.” Well Grats you. Some people do have take prudence in consideration when adding to their family.
That was not my point. My point was animals do not purposefully avoid sex while the female is fertile. Humans are the only species that do that.

I never said having sex when the wife was infertile was wrong. I stated that purposefully avoiding sex during fertile times and ONLY having sex during non-fertile times is un-natural when compared to the natural law that rules the animals.
 
I think you imposed that view on me. I never said I supported it. I was stating that many have a problem with these documents (me included****. I didn’t say I reject them) because they are not clearly in line with the previous teaching of the church or even the teaching of other 20th century popes.

If you have a problem the teaching its your responsibility to educate yourself on what it means instead of writing it off as not in line with Church teaching. You should form your consceince properly in the light of the Church and because while YOU can be in the wrong, in the area of Faith and Morals the Church can not be. You also should not condemn people that base their decision to use NFP to avoid children. Your support it.
moon1234;5025907:
Try as you might, most people using NFP are doing so to AVOID the birth of a child. They are NOT being open to life. Take a poll at the next NFP class and see how many people are there to learn how to AVOID having children. That will show you how well their conscience is formed.
This is NOT what the Church teaches.
There are legitimate, but very few, true reasons to delay having children. Honestly ASK some of the people what their reasons for delaying children are. If it is money, ask if they will be in the street if another child comes (They won’t. The government already provides free food and other subsidies if you don’t make enough money). Could they sell the TV, DVD player, Snow Mobile, etc. to have the money to pay for the child?
This is a judgement, you do not know their heart. Secondly its NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHY THEY ARE AVOIDING PERIOD.
Most Catholics DO NOT want to make these sacrifices so they look to AVOID making them.
You have no ablitty to make this judgement nor should you. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Do I sound harsh? Maybe, but I do not intend to personally attack anyone. People need to hear these things so they can properly examine their lives.
Yes they do, but not from you. Its not your Job.
Pope Pius X, as well as many other saints, came from large families that were poor. How we would have missed had the parents of these saints decided they had TOO many children or needed to DELAY having more. God always provides as long as you TRUST him. It is when we start trying to decide what God wants that we run into trouble.
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0311fea3.asp

“An example of one such error is the hyper-pious notion that if couples really trusted in providence, they would never seek to avoid a child. This simply is not the teaching of the Church. In some cases, “increase in the size of the family would be incompatible with parental duty” (Karol Wojtyla [John Paul II], Love and Responsibility, Ignatius Press, 243). Therefore, avoiding children “in certain circumstances may be permissible or even obligatory” (Karol Wojtyla, Person & Community: Selected Essays, Peter Lang Publishing, p. 293).”
This is the letter that I was referring to. I generally receive my info from what many consider traditional sources. I read extensively the teachings of the Church fathers and canonized saints to determine the weight and meaning of future documents. I have always, even since I was a little boy, been taught that serious sin=mortal sin. I have always understood the word serious in the cathecism to mean grave, dire, etc. Most of the news sites I look at also retain the same outlook.
Grave matter required for mortal sin is not even remotly on the same page as Just reasons for NFP. Stop trying to equate the two, it is apples and oranges.
 
That was not my point. My point was animals do not purposefully avoid sex while the female is fertile. Humans are the only species that do that.

I never said having sex when the wife was infertile was wrong. I stated that purposefully avoiding sex during fertile times and ONLY having sex during non-fertile times is un-natural when compared to the natural law that rules the animals.
But animals couldn’t choose even if they wanted to. God gave us the ability to track our natural cycles that He Himself DESIGNED! God could have created women to be fertile all the time if He wanted to, right? 🤷
NFP isn’t going AGAINST nature, it’s USING nature - God’s creation! Abstaining at ANY time isn’t an easy choice to make, it’s not even CLOSE to contraception where the mindset is “I’ll have sex whenever I want and don’t want the consequences”… it requires sacrifice and prayerful decision making.

I think the NFP-user that you’re describing is NOT in the majority… in fact, I think you’d be hard-pressed to fine an NFP user that chooses to avoid conception throughout MOST of their marriage, unless there is an extraordinary case of medical concern or something like that.
 
I never said having sex when the wife was infertile was wrong. I stated that purposefully avoiding sex during fertile times and ONLY having sex during non-fertile times is un-natural when compared to the natural law that rules the animals.
Look up sexuality in Dolphin. Dogs will use a humans leg to “relieve” themselves does masturbation is natural there for moral or that inter-species erotica is okay?
 
But animals couldn’t choose even if they wanted to. God gave us the ability to track our natural cycles that He Himself DESIGNED! God could have created women to be fertile all the time if He wanted to, right? 🤷
NFP isn’t going AGAINST nature, it’s USING nature - God’s creation! Abstaining at ANY time isn’t an easy choice to make, it’s not even CLOSE to contraception where the mindset is “I’ll have sex whenever I want and don’t want the consequences”… it requires sacrifice and prayerful decision making.

I think the NFP-user that you’re describing is NOT in the majority… in fact, I think you’d be hard-pressed to fine an NFP user that chooses to avoid conception throughout MOST of their marriage, unless there is an extraordinary case of medical concern or something like that.
But animals couldn’t choose even if they wanted to. God gave us the ability to track our natural cycles that He Himself DESIGNED!

He also gave us an intellect that can be used for Good and Bad. Atomic energy and the knowledge of it we learned over time. It can be used for Good and Bad. Just because we have learned over time how the process of reproduction works, does not mean that we are allowed to use it for whatever or however we please.
 
Look up sexuality in Dolphin. Dogs will use a humans leg to “relieve” themselves does masturbation is natural there for moral or that inter-species erotica is okay?
This is a rabbit hole, but my answer was concerning natural law as is so frequently stated. In the context this answer was given, it was in response to the question that “We are not allowed to have sex when the female is not fertile.” If you want to compare how natural law governs the natural world, then you need to see that the natural law does not exlude intercourse when the female is fertile.

The macinations of male animal reproductive urges were not part of the question.

I was just trying to point out that Pope Pius XI stated:

“Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.”

The primary purpose of sex is having children. The secondary purpose is love, mutual giving and mutual pleasure. If you purposely avoid sex and hence children and go only for the secondary purpose then you exclude or frustrate the primary purpose.

Humanae Vitae reiterates this if you read the whole document. So any teaching of the church needs to be read in light of prior teaching. If you solely read Humanae Vitae then you will not be able to read it in light of the past as Humanae Vitae actually calls mind to.

Humanea Vitae dealt more with the method of birthing (or not) children. To understand how it can be applied you also need to look at the past teachings of the Church all the way back to Christ.

Those that throw mud a traditionalists deny their own Catholic history. The church did not start with John XXIII, Paul VI, etc. Any of their teachings need to be read in light of tradition and previous Pope’s teaching.
 
Grave matter required for mortal sin is not even remotly on the same page as Just reasons for NFP. Stop trying to equate the two, it is apples and oranges.
Not according to two priests I just talked to who both said that serious=grave even with regards to NFP. I am fairly confident that if you approach the teaching authority in your diocese and present this question to him, he will affirm what I have said.
 
So many points, so little time . . .

first, biologybrain, great post (#53, I think), and you will be in my prayers. Hang in there.

Moon, could you respond to LNJ’s point about only exercising the marital embrace in fertile times? If you are engaging in the act when procreation is not possible, isn’t that engaging in the act for pleasure only, which was condemned in your view by Pius X? In prior days, perhaps that information (when your bride was fertile) was not readily available, but it is now. How is your marital relations in the infertile period objectively different than a couple’s who is making use of the infertile period for serious reasons? How is it objectively different than the couple using that knowledge for trivial reasons/with a contraceptive mindset?

FYI, my bride and I are one of the lay couples that teach NFP which you seem to think are inferior to a priest. We are trained by the Diocese, and I assure you we do discuss the discernment part. We also teach pre-cana and emphasize it there as well.

FYI #2, for a while, every couple that we taught wanted to learn NFP for achieving pregnancy, not postponing. We had had our own infertility issues, and fortunately were able to empathize more with those couples who were struggling to conceive. God is great, to use our struggle to reach others, no?

FYI #3, we have 3 now, two adopted, one of a different race, whose birth mom was a young teen raped by a half-brother, ages 5,4, and 2. Child #2 is 9 and a half months younger than #1-- we had just brought adopted girl #1 home, knew we were fertile, but took advantage of a rare moment of quiet and trusted in God, who blessed us with the now 4 year old.

FYI #4, we have been married nine years, and we did use NFP with a somewhat contraceptive mindset at first. Developing a relationship with the Lord was a process - - I was a convert from nonpracticing Methodism. We were learning about each other and our prayer life as a married couple, how to discern, etc., etc. The point is that even the imperfect practice of NFP draws the couple into a deeper and more personal relationship with God. It has taken study of the theology of the body to really help us see where we are coming from and how we were formed. I’m not here to tell you we have it all figured out, but we are on the journey. We would love to be blessed with more, but we will be discerning God’s will for us. I was just unemployed for a few weeks, so that was not the ideal time to add to our family, in our discernment.

Moon, your trust in the Lord is awesome and inspirational too. As you can tell a little from my story above, I am well aware that God will not be outdone in generosity.
I commend your post. I am sure you can now see that your initial use for NFP was contraceptive in mindset. This is why I question how this is taught to most newlyweds modern Catholic parishes. You now have the wisdom to discren the proper use of NFP and how for infertility, this science can be a very beneficial, natural way to improve the odds of conceiving a child.

The approach you take to NFP for infertility is directly opposite to the approach most are exposed to. Today’s approach to NFP is to avoid and not to beget children. This is where I am so opposed to this mindset being taught. It muddies the water between ABC and NFP.

Just keep in mind that trying to discren or understand God’s will is not up to us. If we live our lives justly and according to his will, then we will ultimately make it to heaven. The temporal problems of this world cause so many to try to discern what God is telling us.

With regards to losing your job, that can be a very stressful event. If it were me I would want to be closer to my wife and maybe be having MORE sex than disparing and potentially rejecting a gift that may come my way. I find sex to be uplifting (no pun intended) and reinforces my commitment to my wife and family. It helps me realize that I should not worry about where money, etc. is going to come from. My point is we don’t know what God has planned for us. We just need to live our lives the best we can according to God’s law.
 
I was just trying to point out that Pope Pius XI stated:

“Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.”

The primary purpose of sex is having children. The secondary purpose is love, mutual giving and mutual pleasure. If you purposely avoid sex and hence children and go only for the secondary purpose then you exclude or frustrate the primary purpose.

Humanae Vitae reiterates this if you read the whole document. So any teaching of the church needs to be read in light of prior teaching. If you solely read Humanae Vitae then you will not be able to read it in light of the past as Humanae Vitae actually calls mind to.

Humanea Vitae dealt more with the method of birthing (or not) children. To understand how it can be applied you also need to look at the past teachings of the Church all the way back to Christ.

Those that throw mud a traditionalists deny their own Catholic history. The church did not start with John XXIII, Paul VI, etc. Any of their teachings need to be read in light of tradition and previous Pope’s teaching.
No, you’ve misread Pope Pius XI’s quote:
“Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.”
It says “those you IN EXERCISING IT” (which means having sex, not abstaining) “deliberately frustrate it’s natural powers and purpose” (ie using artificial birth control) “sin against nature…” etc…

NFP does not frustrate that natural union.
 
No, you’ve misread Pope Pius XI’s quote:

It says “those you IN EXERCISING IT” (which means having sex, not abstaining) “deliberately frustrate it’s natural powers and purpose” (ie using artificial birth control) “sin against nature…” etc…

NFP does not frustrate that natural union.
Believe what you will. I don’t believe that was his intention. I believe that when you exercise the conjugal act purposefully (ie. have sex) deliberatly during infertile times you frustrate the primary purpose, which is having children. Because your act of purposefully having sex during infertile, while excluding the fertile times is a frustration of the primary purpose.

I very much doubt he or many of the saints would approve of the mass avoidance of people having children, by the use of his words in this manner.
 
Not according to two priests I just talked to who both said that serious=grave even with regards to NFP. I am fairly confident that if you approach the teaching authority in your diocese and present this question to him, he will affirm what I have said.
I’m sure I could find a teaching authority in my diocese to say about anything I wanted. Including “the pill” or sterilastion would be moral in my situation, gay marriage is okay and the Church is just outdated. No offence but 2 priests said holds no water just as any opinions that I got from priests regarding the stuff I just mentioned holds no water. My point was grave matter for moral sin and grave or serious (or just) reasons for using NFP are NOT the same thing. It makes no since to bring up terminology for and equate it to mortal sin in the same conversation as NFP and attempt to use it to define “grave”.
 
I’m sure I could find a teaching authority in my diocese to say about anything I wanted. Including “the pill” or sterilastion would be moral in my situation, gay marriage is okay and the Church is just outdated. No offence but 2 priests said holds no water just as any opinions that I got from priests regarding the stuff I just mentioned holds no water. My point was grave matter for moral sin and grave or serious (or just) reasons for using NFP are NOT the same thing. It makes no since to bring up terminology for and equate it to mortal sin in the same conversation as NFP and attempt to use it to define “grave”.
In your opinion.
 
Believe what you will. I don’t believe that was his intention. I believe that when you exercise the conjugal act purposefully (ie. have sex) deliberatly during infertile times you frustrate the primary purpose, which is having children. Because your act of purposefully having sex during infertile times is a frustration of the primary purpose.

I very much doubt he or many of the saints would approve of the mass avoidance of people having children, by the use of his words in this manner.
You see, but it’s NOT “mass avoidance of people having children”… it’s for serious/grave/dire reasons. It’s for balancing married life with your spiritual life. It’s for allowing a family to be ready for MORE children at a time when they don’t see that conception as something burdensome!
It allows you to have FREE WILL - in a PRAYERFUL manner. NFP is NOT to be used in a selfish, non-prayerful manner! You’re right! That’s NOT the intent! But it does offer that opportunity for us to use our free will - for good or bad.
You’re absolutely right that it CAN be used for bad… but the chances of someone sticking to something like NFP who have “bad” intentions is probably far less than you expect.
 
You see, but it’s NOT “mass avoidance of people having children”… it’s for serious/grave/dire reasons. It’s for balancing married life with your spiritual life. It’s for allowing a family to be ready for MORE children at a time when they don’t see that conception as something burdensome!
It allows you to have FREE WILL - in a PRAYERFUL manner. NFP is NOT to be used in a selfish, non-prayerful manner! You’re right! That’s NOT the intent! But it does offer that opportunity for us to use our free will - for good or bad.
You’re absolutely right that it CAN be used for bad… but the chances of someone sticking to something like NFP who have “bad” intentions is probably far less than you expect.
*MORE children at a time when they don’t see that conception as something burdensome! *

Perfect example of being closed to God’s will. It is up to ME to decide when** I** want to have children. This is the contraceptive mentality.
 
*MORE children at a time when they don’t see that conception as something burdensome! *

Perfect example of being closed to God’s will. It is up to ME to decide when** I** want to have children. This is the contraceptive mentality.
No, the contraceptive mentality is avoiding children WHILE having sex when you want it.

Asking God for a period of rest and using HIS natural creation in a prayerful manner is not.
 
Believe what you will. I don’t believe that was his intention. I believe that when you exercise the conjugal act purposefully (ie. have sex) deliberatly during infertile times you frustrate the primary purpose, which is having children. Because your act of purposefully having sex during infertile times is a frustration of the primary purpose.

I very much doubt he or many of the saints would approve of the mass avoidance of people having children, by the use of his words in this manner.
Burden of proof is on you, just because you THINK they would disapprove does mean anything. The fact of the matter is it is STATED that was his intention.
USCCB:
The Church has always recognized the legitimacy of abstaining from sexual intercourse when both spouses consent for a limited time and for religious reasons (cf. 1Cor. 7:5). When Pius XI condemned contraception in his encyclical on marriage, Casti connubii (Dec 31, 1930), he did not address the licitness of the Rhythm method which had only recently been discovered but did allow married couples the use of their conjugal rights “in the proper manner” when new life could not be brought forth either because of timing or defects of nature. (No. 59) It was not until Pius XII that explicit pronouncements were made. By that time the Basal Body Temperature method (BBT) was becoming increasingly known and used among Catholics.
usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/seriousq.shtml

ignatius.com/Magazines/HPRweb/storck.htm

I’m going to venture a guess that your interpretation has been influenced by a certain SSPX documents like this one sspx.org/against_sound_bites/rhythm_unhappy_compromise.htm and this one sspx.org/against_sound_bites/marital_love_and_fidelity.htm Notice either of those give dates or many quotes. Just little snippets pulled out of context and their own commentary.
 
No, the contraceptive mentality is avoiding children WHILE having sex when you want it.

Asking God for a period of rest and using HIS natural creation in a prayerful manner is not.
If you asking for a period of rest then you should not artifically create it. God will discern that for you if you trust him.

What will your answer be to God, if he should ask, at your judgement:

“Why did you not want to accept the children I had intended to send you? Did you not trust that I had a plan for you and would care for you?”
 
Humanea Vitae dealt more with the method of birthing (or not) children. To understand how it can be applied you also need to look at the past teachings of the Church all the way back to Christ.
Those that throw mud a traditionalists deny their own Catholic history. The church did not start with John XXIII, Paul VI, etc. Any of their teachings need to be read in light of tradition and previous Pope’s teaching.
That’s true. However, there is nothing inherently wrong w/ using NFP to avoid pregnancy/children. I’m not throwing mud at traditionalists, I’m trying to make the point that there is a possibility of scrupulocity. Every time a man & woman has sex THEY are making a decision, not God. Women (good tradional historical women) have been using what God gave them (cycles of fertility & infertility) to space/plan births. It wasn’t as widely taught historically, but was used none-the-less. You cannot deny that fact. Mothers have traditionally used nursing as natural birth spacing/planning. That has been fact of life for centuries.

I think where we disagree is primarily that you focus only on the negative aspects of using NFP to space/plan children. You’re focusing on what you perceive as our desire to be like God and/or take away His will in our reproductive lives. That’s a negative connotation that is not necessarily true at all and at the very least it is not universally true.

We’ve tried to express repeatedly that NFP is primarily about using what God gave us (our intellect & our bodies) to the best of our abilities. In order to use NFP, the couple must acknowledge that God created the body a certain way and learn that way. This engenders further glorification of God’s creation by the couple. They can rejoice in the intricacies of the human body. The man learns to respect the woman & her knowledge of self. The woman learns to share her intimate being with her husband in a non-sexual way. Together they choose to join & possibly create new life. Even in infertile periods, conception is possible if it is God’s will. Sperm cells can remain motile & fertile for several days in the reproductive tract of a woman. If it is God’s will, even a couple that is trying to avoid, can (and do) get pregnant. Again, even if the couple is theoretically trying to out-God God, He can (and does sometimes) express His perfect control over them. In addition, as the couple continues to glorify God in unravelling and trying to understand the intricacies He gave us, they learn further to respect one another. They learn self-sacrifice. They learn self-discipline. In no way can these lessons learned be subverted to evil.

The Church is not clear on what exactly constitutes grave/serious reasons for using NFP (or any other licit means) of spacing or avoiding children. One of the reasons for this is that each couple/family is different. While one woman may be comfortable and emotionally sound after having 4 miscarriages, another woman may begin to have more than just self-doubt, but progress into self-loathing due to the constant failure of her body to willingly host a child to birth. NFP as a means to avoid further pregnancies for the 2nd woman would clearly be valid. However, the KEY is that NO ONE but that couple actually KNOWS their true, complete, honest reasons for avoiding more children. Seldom is simply one issue at play in the decision to avoid pregnancy using NFP. It is simply too difficult to avoid pregnancy w/o a good serious/grave reason in your own mind.

As a traditionalist, you should realize that we are first called to be charitable to our brethren and not judge them. You may feel that mud is being thrown on the traditionalists, but what about the mud that’s covering (according to your posts) those who use NFP to avoid further children. You have been dismissing them out of hand by saying “Most Catholics who use NFP use it simply to avoid having children.” You dismiss and disrespect them by saying ‘if you use NFP to avoid children you are no better than those who use ABC’. You judge them by saying ‘limiting your children by using NFP for financial reasons is not a serious enough matter and therefore you’re abusing NFP.’ None of those implications/accusations can stand in light of God’s call for us to be charitable and non-judgemental. IF NFP can be abused (a big if IMO) and is used contraceptively, there is a problem. However, before you paint all practicers of NFP w/ the same tarry brush, perhaps you should try to walk in our shoes. Its true that God will come to your aid if you have Faith in Him. However, it is just as true that God helps those who help themselves. By using my God-given sexuality and cycles, I can avoid pregnancy if its not the right thing in my opinion at that time. I’m still using GOD’S plan b/c He planned my sexual cycles.

This article gives a good defense (since it seems necessary) of NFP & how it fundamentally differs from any form of contraception. Source

Another key point for you is that few (if any) NFP couples abort their ‘unplanned’ pregnancies. Very few NFP couples divorce. This is because NFP solidifies their love for one another and embraces God’s creation. However, if a couple were truly contraceptively minded in their use of NFP, the rates of abortion & divorce would not differ signifcantly from their ABC counterparts.

IMO NFP is as dangerous & evil as using medications to slow or halt the death of an individual. In both cases, ultimately the decision is up to God. In both cases, people try to ‘control’ the end result. In both cases, something is done using God-given talents, knowledge, and workings to effect the result the people desire.
 
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